OT: College in the COVID era

[Guapo]

I’ll never forget the Quinnipiac student section chanting “safety school” at UConn during the hockey game there

 

[Chin Diesel]

That's absolutely the case but what I've never understood is why? Why do the northeast states and Illinois pay billions every year to the federal gov't and the Southern states take billions every year from the federal gov't? The northeast and Illinois continue to lose population to the South as we're paying for the South. How on earth is this relationship beneficial to the northeast and Illinois?

You kinda answered your own question. If a retiree moves from Illinois all their SS money and all their medicare and medicaid money moves from Illinois to the state they moved to.
Add in defense spending. Look at where most of the large military bases are located. California has a few but most of the rest of the bases are in the south and west.
Ft Bliss in Texas is bigger in size than Rhode Island about 30% of the size of CT.

The New England states and their residents get all the benefit of a national defense without housing many of its units. So, yes, they are "subsidizing" those states who house large military structures without having to give up land and infrastructure within the state. All that federal money for military bases isn't taxable and the state can't use that land for anything else.

 

[HuskyHawk]

He may also fine he's easily the sharpest guy in many of his classes.

I'm half kidding but if they are drawing from the top high schools down south, it's not the same as the caliber of student up north. But I only know this anecdotally from my niece who moved to Connecticut after attending a top HS in Florida and her being a top student growing up there all her life. She was an A+ student who was suddenly getting Cs in Connecticut, but only because she was a year behind the Connecticut kids in all her subjects. It took 6 months of intensive tutoring for her to catch up. Her 2nd year (she went to Staples) she started getting all As again.

Again--I haven't seen any studies, but I do know that kids up here in Buffalo begin Geometry freshman year in HS having already completed Algebra I in 7th and 8th grade.

That isn't new. It happened when I was a kid in the 70's and 80's in Manchester. Kids from elsewhere were behind, many were put back a year. Even from California, which has pretty weak K-12.

But as with @UConnRock's son, I know the parents of several of these kids. They don't plan to come back north. This is partly early migration south. I totally get the need to make up for international kid tuition, but the point is that kids from New England are willingly attending big southern schools. Truly southern, not UVA/UNC. That in itself is a change.

 

[Eavesdrop]

Georgia and Florida are a cut above UMass but I'd do some analysis of UMass vs. Texas A&M.

I'm confused. Did you mean Georgia Tech instead of Georgia? Because….

Times Higher Education World Ranking: Texas A&M 197. UMass: 201-250. Georgia 401-500.

QS Top University Global Rankings: Texas A&M 168. UMass: 246. Georgia 541-550.

Shanghai Global Ranking: Texas A&M 151-200. UMass 151-200. Georgia 201-300.

US News Global Ranking: Texas A&M 130. UMass 142. Georgia 310.

AAU membership: Texas A&M yes. UMass and Georgia no.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You kinda answered your own question. If a retiree moves from Illinois all their SS money and all their medicare and medicaid money moves from Illinois to the state they moved to.
Add in defense spending. Look at where most of the large military bases are located. California has a few but most of the rest of the bases are in the south and west.
Ft Bliss in Texas is bigger in size than Rhode Island about 30% of the size of CT.

The New England states and their residents get all the benefit of a national defense without housing many of its units. So, yes, they are "subsidizing" those states who house large military structures without having to give up land and infrastructure within the state. All that federal money for military bases isn't taxable and the state can't use that land for anything else.

The whole subsidy thing is a myth anyway. It's partly based on falsely attributing corporate federal taxes to the parent location. McDonald's pays taxes in Illinois, but that revenue was mostly not generated in Illinois. Nor WalMart's in Arkansas, or Amazon's in Washington. There is going to be a general subsidy of poorer, rural states, and that includes places like Maine. Texas is about to pass NY in fed taxes paid, and with Tesla, HP and others moving there, will get credit for taxes now credited to CA.

Meanwhile, NY is #6 on this list. California #2. Washington #4, Oregon #6. Natural Disasters by State: The 25 Most Disaster-Prone Areas in the US (moneywise.com) No New England States, but all the western states are represented.

 

[Guapo]

I'm confused. Did you mean Georgia Tech instead of Georgia? Because….

Times Higher Education World Ranking: Texas A&M 197. UMass: 201-250. Georgia 401-500.

QS Top University Global Rankings: Texas A&M 168. UMass: 246. Georgia 541-550.

Shanghai Global Ranking: Texas A&M 151-200. UMass 151-200. Georgia 201-300.

US News Global Ranking: Texas A&M 130. UMass 142. Georgia 310.

AAU membership: Texas A&M yes. UMass and Georgia no.

Of course UGA isn’t in the AAU; it’s a liberal arts school, most of the research money goes to Tech. Look at admissions %. Also USNRW ranked #47 overall and I think #16 public school.

 

[Guapo]

Not to go too far down the (subjective) ranking rabbit hole. But, there are a lot more cities where a UGA degree is going to get you farther than a UMass degree. That also has to do with connections etc. It’s almost not even comparable from a cultural stand point

 

[Eavesdrop]

Of course UGA isn’t in the AAU; it’s a liberal arts school, most of the research money goes to Tech. Look at admissions %. Also USNRW ranked #47 overall and I think #16 public school.

All ranking systems have flaws. But US News's national rankings are notoriously easy to manipulate. I absolutely wouldn't advise any parent and/or student to ever factor those rankings into their college decision making. (The magazine outsources their global rankings, which is why there is a discrepancy.)

Mind you, Georgia is a good school that's ambitious and getting better. It's also the largest, most influential university in a fast growing state. Their future seems very bright. I even like UGA's odds of becoming an AAU member eventually. Believe their research expenditures are already about $500 million. They only added their engineering school in 2012 so lots of room for growth. Believe the leg humpers (as GT alums/fans are prone to call them) are a definite up an comer.

My primary point is that a review of the rankings individually or at a composite level clearly show that UGA is not currently "hands down" a better school than UMass and certainly not better than aTm.

 

[Guapo]

All ranking systems have flaws. But US News's national rankings are notoriously easy to manipulate. I absolutely wouldn't advise any parent and/or student to ever factor those rankings into their college decision making. (The magazine outsources their global rankings, which is why there is a discrepancy.)

Mind you, Georgia is a good school that's ambitious and getting better. It's also the largest, most influential university in a fast growing state. Their future seems very bright. I even like UGA's odds of becoming an AAU member eventually. Believe their research expenditures are already about $500 million. They only added their engineering school in 2012 so lots of room for growth. Believe the leg humpers (as GT alums/fans are prone to call them) are a definite up an comer.

My primary point is that a review of the rankings individually or at a composite level clearly show that UGA is not currently "hands down" a better school than UMass and certainly not better than aTm.

Its actually not the largest school in the state. Both Georgia State and Kennesaw State are larger #funfact

 

[Eavesdrop]

Its actually not the largest school in the state. Both Georgia State and Kennesaw State are larger #funfact

Oh. My bad. I actually knew GSU's enrollment was among the largest nationally. I should've remembered them. I had no idea about Kennesaw State though.

 

[Guapo]

Oh. My bad. I actually knew GSU's enrollment was among the largest nationally. I should've remembered them. I had no idea about Kennesaw State though.

No worries! Wasn’t meant to be a “gotcha” just a lil known fact

 

[NJHusky]

Not to go too far down the (subjective) ranking rabbit hole. But, there are a lot more cities where a UGA degree is going to get you farther than a UMass degree. That also has to do with connections etc. It’s almost not even comparable from a cultural stand point

Of course local schools benefit alums living in the area. That’s true in every part of the country. That was kind of my point earlier. If u r going to def live in Georgia…going to UGA is helpful. But it won’t help much if u move to Boston. Whereas a UM/Berkeley/UVA degree will help in any part of the country.

 

[upstater]

I'm confused. Did you mean Georgia Tech instead of Georgia? Because….

Times Higher Education World Ranking: Texas A&M 197. UMass: 201-250. Georgia 401-500.

QS Top University Global Rankings: Texas A&M 168. UMass: 246. Georgia 541-550.

Shanghai Global Ranking: Texas A&M 151-200. UMass 151-200. Georgia 201-300.

US News Global Ranking: Texas A&M 130. UMass 142. Georgia 310.

AAU membership: Texas A&M yes. UMass and Georgia no.

No, I just thought Georgia was in the AAU. I was wrong.

Those rankings are not convincing to me though. I generally ignore them. There are a lot of AAU schools rated below some of the flotsam.

Carnegie has a much better ranking of the schools.

I also didn't count Rutgers among the 7 northeast publics I mentioned. I would include them and say there are 8 northeast publics that are national contenders when it comes to public Us. Easy to forge Rutgers, I know.

 

[HuskyHawk]

No, I just thought Georgia was in the AAU. I was wrong.

Those rankings are not convincing to me though. I generally ignore them. There are a lot of AAU schools rated below some of the flotsam.

Carnegie has a much better ranking of the schools.

I also didn't count Rutgers among the 7 northeast publics I mentioned. I would include them and say there are 8 northeast publics that are national contenders when it comes to public Us. Easy to forge Rutgers, I know.

I've seen Carnegie's research tiers, but not an actual ranking. In all these rankings, whether USNEWS, QS Global, Niche, Money, whatever, the criteria are different. I feel like we are often comparing apples, oranges, peaches and grapes.

Kansas is one of the AAU schools rated below the flotsam. In USNEWS it cannot overcome the state mandate to admit every Kansas HS kid with certain grades and test scores. Then it flunks a bunch of them out, which hurts the ranking more. Yet actual academics are quite a bit better than USNWR would suggest. In QS World rankings it is similar but slightly behind UConn. In this one it is slightly better. World University Rankings 2021-22 | Global 2000 List | CWUR

 

[upstater]

I've seen Carnegie's research tiers, but not an actual ranking. In all these rankings, whether USNEWS, QS Global, Niche, Money, whatever, the criteria are different. I feel like we are often comparing apples, oranges, peaches and grapes.

Kansas is one of the AAU schools rated below the flotsam. In USNEWS it cannot overcome the state mandate to admit every Kansas HS kid with certain grades and test scores. Then it flunks a bunch of them out, which hurts the ranking more. Yet actual academics are quite a bit better than USNWR would suggest. In QS World rankings it is similar but slightly behind UConn. In this one it is slightly better. World University Rankings 2021-22 | Global 2000 List | CWUR

So many bad decisions are made by administrators trying to game the rankings. It is absurd. The higher you go, the worse you get. Take faculty/student ratio and hire a certain kind of instructor who doesn't count in the criteria, and voila, your scores rise. And the worst of it is the demographic question: our population count has risen significantly since the last time these publics have opened new seats.

 

[HuskyHawk]

So many bad decisions are made by administrators trying to game the rankings. It is absurd. The higher you go, the worse you get. Take faculty/student ratio and hire a certain kind of instructor who doesn't count in the criteria, and voila, your scores rise. And the worst of it is the demographic question: our population count has risen significantly since the last time these publics have opened new seats.

For publics, I think the mission may need to be redefined. I do appreciate that KU's mission is fundamentally to provide high quality education to people in the state. Some of these publics are pushing that mission down to a lower tier school and trying to compete for prestige. I think UConn has that problem, because there is a pretty big drop off. There is no NC State, Temple, Cincinnati in CT. That role gets filled by Fairfield and other privates.

 

[Guapo]

For publics, I think the mission may need to be redefined. I do appreciate that KU's mission is fundamentally to provide high quality education to people in the state. Some of these publics are pushing that mission down to a lower tier school and trying to compete for prestige. I think UConn has that problem, because there is a pretty big drop off. There is no NC State, Temple, Cincinnati in CT. That role gets filled by Fairfield and other privates.

I think some of that is CT’s weird private vs public views. For instance I knew a number of kids who couldn’t get into UConn - but never in a million years would consider Eastern or Central, and wound up at QU or UHart or Roger Williams etc and are now really struggling and/or drowning in debt that they may never pay off. I also know a number of people who went to the directionals and are now very successful. Long story short, those schools can play that role in the state, there just needs to be a cultural shift. Maybe the economic and cost realities over the past decade plus have chipped away at that elitist POV a little bit

 

[upstater]

For publics, I think the mission may need to be redefined. I do appreciate that KU's mission is fundamentally to provide high quality education to people in the state. Some of these publics are pushing that mission down to a lower tier school and trying to compete for prestige. I think UConn has that problem, because there is a pretty big drop off. There is no NC State, Temple, Cincinnati in CT. That role gets filled by Fairfield and other privates.

The prestige thing is all about acceptance percentages. That's what USNWR weighs heavily.

The SAT scores would not be dinged at all if they opened more seats. Sounds counterintuitive but we saw a study in New York state that showed the lack of seats is sending many kids with higher SAT scores than our average to the small SUNY campuses.

We're freezing kids out for no good reason at all. The kids not landing spots are just as deserving as the kids who do, if you're looking at grades and SATs.