OT: College in the COVID era

[Guapo]

I know a number of extremely successful Georgia alum in DC, NYC and Chicago.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

Agree, but what happens if the kid decides they don’t want to stay in Alabama or surrounds after college? Going to Vandy or G tech makes sense IMO. As they are good schools well respected around the country. going to Alabama as an out of state state kid???

slow ur harsh.
'In fall 2020, the university had an enrollment of 37,840 students, consisting of 31,670 undergraduates and 6,170 postgraduates, from all 67 Alabama counties,, all 50 US states and the District of Columbia, and 78 foreign nations. Alabama residents comprised 41.4% of the undergraduate student body; out-of-state residents comprised 55.4%, and international (non-resident alien) students comprised 3.2%.' wiki, which by the way, was founded by an u of a graduate.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I know a number of extremely successful Georgia alum in DC, NYC and Chicago.

One of the more successful people I know in banking went to one of the directional Connecticut state universities. What is your point?

 

[superjohn]

No. Some of the feeders to rankings, like % of class in the Top 10%, are hard to compare between an Alabama and UConn because Connecticut K-12 schools are so much better than Alabama's that finishing in the Top 10% of a high school in Alabama is kind of meaningless. Employers know this, and as a result, the southern state schools do not travel well post college.

Maybe just maybe northeast politicians would figure out they shouldn't be massive givers while the Southern states are massive takers.

 

[Guapo]

One of the more successful people I know in banking went to one of the directional Connecticut state universities. What is your point?

Direction CT school = UGA. Got it.

 

[UConnRock]

The flagship southern schools have made great efforts to upgrade their general academic standings. Part of the process is the ever-increasing costs of the private schools making the public option more attractive. Additionally, the in-state scholarship programs set up by many southern states have attracted more top level academic students. The flagship schools are challenging to get into for "average" in-state students, which was not the case a decade or more ago. That is why colleges like UCF, USF and other secondary state schools are overflowing growing quickly. There has also been a strong desire to diversify the student body with out-of-state students. The flagship schools now have active admissions counselors covering all geographic areas.

I agree that if a kid wants to work in the northeast there is a negative associated with a southern public degree. Conversely, my son who went to a northern school it thinking about transferring back down south as he had determined that he has no interest in establishing career roots in the northeast.

 

[husky429]

You might want to check the rankings again. Clemson tops every New England public except UConn and UMass. Plus I have no doubt that they are throwing merit aid to lure kids from the northeast. In state at our local public flagships is really quite high, and with a little merit, those big publics in the south become price competitive. UVM is crazy expensive out of state without Merit. They offered us over $20k a year. Most public HS will probably not have kids with quite the same academic profiles (some will). Ole Miss is ranked #160 overall, but is $25k out of state. Auburn #97. Clemson #74. I found it informative that the higher rated schools, UNC, UVA, UGA, Florida...had none of these kids. Less of a need to recruit them and provide merit. As for not a "good" school, every flagship state U is "good". Most kids go to college at the Central/Southern level schools or community college.

I think they sent two to BC, but that's probably as many as BC was going to take no matter what. One BU. Two Northeastern (including mine). Villanova was 3, but one was athletic scholarship (also true of UConn...baseball player).

True, but only comparing state schools is probably unfair. We don't have the same caliber of state school because of funding. But we also have a ton of fantastic private school networks with net tuition close to most of their out-of-state tuition prices. Or at least not terrible. Face-value tuition is going to be higher of course.

I think the environment is probably more a factor... private schools are cool, but for kids that want the big state school environment, UConn is definitely expensive compared to down south. There's no way you could graduate undergrad up here with less than 30k in debt like my fiance did, especially from a school ranked as well as UNC. It's unheard of.

I really doubt that the kids coming from your daughter's school are going to be concerned about price though. How many kids your daughter graduated do you think are actually paying for their college? (Honest, not snarky question... I know there are plenty of private school kids not flush with cash). I would imagine weather, sports, culture, and getting away from home are the factors here more than price. UConn is in the northeast but isn't pulling the kids that like winter sports, but the weather isn't good enough for someone who wants to see the sun. It's sort of a crappy spot to be.

UConn needs to work hard to boost its ranking though. #63 in US News (and around there elsewhere) is fine, but not a draw for talented students in itself. I know a few departments are making big strides right now (education, philosophy, bio, and I think the pharmacy school?). Hopefully, an improved basketball team will help. I know the rankings are not very meaningful in a lot of ways, but having a top-50+ public school in the northeast would be pretty meaningful. A better ranking could pull some of those super-smart kids that are all heading to Wesleyan, Tufts, Hamilton, and the like right now.

 

[Greedo]

A private hs in mass isn't really a great cross section of America. Kids are going to head across the country way more. I teach public hs and the vast, vast majority of kids stay in New England. Our valedictorian went to UConn the last 3 years. Didn't you say tons of kids at your daughters school wanted BC?

Honest question: why would anyone go pay out-of-state tuition at Clemson? (Or UConn for that matter). Those southern schools are all DIRT cheap in-state but is 40k a year worth it for a school ranked in the 60s or 70s? They don't have much going on other than football... my fiance interviewed for a job on the faculty at Clemson this spring. It was cool but I wouldn't say the area is really even better than Storrs when I saw it those couple days.

My fiance went to UNC for 8k a year undergrad and 24k a year law school in state--stupid cheap. Southern state schools might be the only place person could actually work their way through college like the old days. The out of state might even be worth it there because of its ranking.

But Clemson? Alabama? Ole Miss? Auburn? These aren't even good schools. Clemson has like 40k out of state tuition, at least some of the others are cheaper but I'm guessing private schools kids are mostly not paying anyways.

End rant. Good info regardless... thanks for sharing.

I was an out of state student at UConn and graduated in 2012. At the time at least, I did the math and UConn was more expensive than in state tuition at Penn State or Pitt, but it wasn’t that big of a difference. I wanted to go to UConn and I figured my debt wouldn’t be drastically different if I went in state. Other states are different obviously, but just one example of someone choosing UConn from out of state.

Penn State and Pitt are also only “state related” universities, so they do have in state and out of state tuitions, but it’s not nearly as good of a deal as true state schools. PA residents don’t really have a true big state school. That’s what made it less of an issue for me to pay out of state tuition at UConn. PA residents really get jipped compared to other states.

 

[NJHusky]

There has also been a strong desire to diversify the student body with out-of-state students. The flagship schools now have active admissions counselors covering all geographic areas.

My uneducated guess is that they want out of state kids not because they want more Boston accents in Starkville or Tuscaloosa, but because they want kids paying 4-5x what the locals pay.

 

[UConnRock]

From a purely bottom-line financial view, the cost of running a large university is significantly less in the south. The cost of salaries, construction, maintenance, utilities, benefits and many other elements of running any business are significantly cheaper. Hell, the cost of my daughter's meal plan at Rice is 1/2 of my son's meal plan at a northeast school, and the food is better. I am guessing the cost of UConn's hockey arena would be at least 30% less if build at a southern location. This means that the money coming into the southern flagship schools can be spent on professors, equipment, and facilities that are supporting the higher academic standards.


Yes, the like out of state tuition, but few of the out-of-state students are paying the full price. Southern schools hand out money for mid-level ACT/SAT scores. See below for Alabama's automatic scholarships.

2022 Out-of-State Freshman Automatic Merit Scholarships​

Scholarship	Test Score	GPA	Yearly Value
Presidential	32-36 ACT or 1420-1600 SAT	3.50+	$28,000
UA Scholar	30-31 ACT or 1360-1410 SAT	3.50+	$24,000
Foundation in Excellence	29 ACT or 1330-1350 SAT	3.50+	$15,000
Foundation in Excellence	30-36 ACT or 1360-1600 SAT	3.00-3.49	$15,000
Collegiate	28 ACT or 1300-1320 SAT	3.50+	$10,000
Capstone	27 ACT or 1260-1290 SAT	3.50+	$8,000
Capstone	28-29 ACT or 1300-1350 SAT	3.00-3.49	$8,000
Crimson Legends	25-26 ACT or 1200-1250 SAT	3.50+	$6,000
Crimson Legends	27 ACT or 1260-1290 SAT	3.00-3.49	$6,000

 

[Guapo]

I think the northeast - especially New England and metro NYC - has regressive and destructive societal/culture views when it comes to public vs private college. I’m lucky that I went to a suburban Hartford high school where UConn was looked at very positively. But, based on what I heard from my classmates from FFC, the things they were told about UConn were just truly awful and gross

I graduated in 2013, for reference

 

[upstater]

Bumping this old thread for a slightly different topic. As realignment kicks off again, we see the SEC raiding. Well I think the SEC and southern ACC schools are raiding our high schools as well. Logged on to the class of 2021 Instagram account for my daughter's HS. Catholic school in South Eastern Massachusetts. Here's where they are going (it doesn't list every kid) for public universities. With several kids in MA and RI, those should have in-state advantages. Many went to private schools, and most of those are in the region, not all. But the southern public schools are doing very well.

Clemson: 6
Alabama: 3
Auburn: 2
Tennessee: 3
South Carolina: 3
Ole Miss: 1
GT: 1
WV: 1

UConn: 3
UMass: 5
URI: 3
UNH: 5
Penn State: 1
UVM: 2
Temple: 1

I've heard of trends like this elsewhere in the area. I know my local public HS has a lot of kids heading south as well. Heard from friends in Fairfield Cty. that the trend in their HS is towards the Big 10 schools.

Money wise and education wise this makes no sense, unless you want the big campus college experience.

On the other hand, this may be happening because schools are in such dire straits that they are loosening admission standards for out of staters. That would make a lot of sense since they used to rely on foreign students to be the cash cows. Now, it may make more sense to simply take that money from out of staters. This will mean it will be tougher to be admitted as n instate student than in the past.

 

[HuskyHawk]

True, but only comparing state schools is probably unfair. We don't have the same caliber of state school because of funding. But we also have a ton of fantastic private school networks with net tuition close to most of their out-of-state tuition prices. Or at least not terrible. Face-value tuition is going to be higher of course.

I think the environment is probably more a factor... private schools are cool, but for kids that want the big state school environment, UConn is definitely expensive compared to down south. There's no way you could graduate undergrad up here with less than 30k in debt like my fiance did, especially from a school ranked as well as UNC. It's unheard of.

I really doubt that the kids coming from your daughter's school are going to be concerned about price though. How many kids your daughter graduated do you think are actually paying for their college? (Honest, not snarky question... I know there are plenty of private school kids not flush with cash). I would imagine weather, sports, culture, and getting away from home are the factors here more than price. UConn is in the northeast but isn't pulling the kids that like winter sports, but the weather isn't good enough for someone who wants to see the sun. It's sort of a crappy spot to be.

UConn needs to work hard to boost its ranking though. #63 in US News (and around there elsewhere) is fine, but not a draw for talented students in itself. I know a few departments are making big strides right now (education, philosophy, bio, and I think the pharmacy school?). Hopefully, an improved basketball team will help. I know the rankings are not very meaningful in a lot of ways, but having a top-50+ public school in the northeast would be pretty meaningful. A better ranking could pull some of those super-smart kids that are all heading to Wesleyan, Tufts, Hamilton, and the like right now.

Their parents are still paying even if the kids are not (and some probably are). Those parents are looking at costs. And quality for price is better outside the Northeast. I don't think the rankings are a meaningful look at at actual educational quality. I think the actual education is much, much closers to being about the same at schools ranked #120 and #60. It's simply a measure of prestige in most cases, and in others, specific departments may be strong or week vs the overall ranking.

When I tell folks from Texas my daughter is going to Northeastern, many have never heard of it. Or BU. They sure as hell have never heard of Hamilton. Most people in New England have never heard of Hamilton. They'd need to look it up to tell you it wasn't like Quinnipiac. Professional school admissions people, that's who has heard of Hamilton.

Sports matters. College sports exists not because it makes lots of money, mostly they lose money. It exists for marketing. It drives brand recognition. Clemson is seen on TV, it becomes desirable, kids with better grades and test scored go there, the ranking goes up. Rinse, repeat. You can succeed just fine from any state directional school, you can certainly do fine from any state flagship.

 

[upstater]

From a purely bottom-line financial view, the cost of running a large university is significantly less in the south. The cost of salaries, construction, maintenance, utilities, benefits and many other elements of running any business are significantly cheaper. Hell, the cost of my daughter's meal plan at Rice is 1/2 of my son's meal plan at a northeast school, and the food is better. I am guessing the cost of UConn's hockey arena would be at least 30% less if build at a southern location. This means that the money coming into the southern flagship schools can be spent on professors, equipment, and facilities that are supporting the higher academic standards.


Yes, the like out of state tuition, but few of the out-of-state students are paying the full price. Southern schools hand out money for mid-level ACT/SAT scores. See below for Alabama's automatic scholarships.

2022 Out-of-State Freshman Automatic Merit Scholarships​

Scholarship	Test Score	GPA	Yearly Value
Presidential	32-36 ACT or 1420-1600 SAT	3.50+	$28,000
UA Scholar	30-31 ACT or 1360-1410 SAT	3.50+	$24,000
Foundation in Excellence	29 ACT or 1330-1350 SAT	3.50+	$15,000
Foundation in Excellence	30-36 ACT or 1360-1600 SAT	3.00-3.49	$15,000
Collegiate	28 ACT or 1300-1320 SAT	3.50+	$10,000
Capstone	27 ACT or 1260-1290 SAT	3.50+	$8,000
Capstone	28-29 ACT or 1300-1350 SAT	3.00-3.49	$8,000
Crimson Legends	25-26 ACT or 1200-1250 SAT	3.50+	$6,000
Crimson Legends	27 ACT or 1260-1290 SAT	3.00-3.49	$6,000

These schools are competing nationally for staff, not locally. So their salaries should be commensurate, with only a little bit of difference in terms of housing/state taxes. It's not the same as industrial businesses. It's the same as, for example, a bank trying to recruit top financial talent for positions in the south. Salaries are commensurate in that case.

In general, there is much less support for academics and faculty at southern state schools. Clemson has a great rep but for a faculty member teaching a 4/3 with little support for research, you'd choose a northern school every time. I know people who have left places like that for school that don't have anywhere near the reputation that Clemson has, for some reason. In other words, I don't think you're getting the bang for your buck.

 

[upstater]

Outside of Vandy; Florida, Georgia, and Texas A&M are all more than equal to, if not better, academically and “opening career doors”-wise than the vast majority of northeastern schools, UConn included

You mean state schools?

I would say we need to list the schools over a comparably sized region. But you mentioned Vandy here which is a private school. It seems you're lumping in private schools to this analysis. If you are, the northeast destroys the southeast.

But if you're only talking about state schools, there are very good ones other than UConn in the northeast, like Buffalo, Stony Brook, Binghamton, Penn State, Pittsburgh and Maryland. That's 7 state schools that are really good in the northeast. Georgia and Florida are a cut above UMass but I'd do some analysis of UMass vs. Texas A&M.

 

[upstater]

The flagship southern schools have made great efforts to upgrade their general academic standings. Part of the process is the ever-increasing costs of the private schools making the public option more attractive. Additionally, the in-state scholarship programs set up by many southern states have attracted more top level academic students. The flagship schools are challenging to get into for "average" in-state students, which was not the case a decade or more ago. That is why colleges like UCF, USF and other secondary state schools are overflowing growing quickly. There has also been a strong desire to diversify the student body with out-of-state students. The flagship schools now have active admissions counselors covering all geographic areas.

I agree that if a kid wants to work in the northeast there is a negative associated with a southern public degree. Conversely, my son who went to a northern school it thinking about transferring back down south as he had determined that he has no interest in establishing career roots in the northeast.

I'm wondering what you mean by upgrade academic standing? Do you mean futzing around with criteria to rise up in USNWR? Maybe, I don't know.

If you mean upgrading academics, the trend has been to downgrade academics at publics across the nation. I don't know of any public institution that is improving in those metrics. Second tier privates are demolishing their curricula at this point. We have a school up here in upstate New York that is totally revamping absolutely everything they are doing as they move into becoming a professional school, and that's Canisius which used to have a decent reputation as a mid-tier private.

 

[upstater]

My uneducated guess is that they want out of state kids not because they want more Boston accents in Starkville or Tuscaloosa, but because they want kids paying 4-5x what the locals pay.

WINNER!!! When the foreign student market collapsed, administrators had to come up with something.

 

[UConnRock]

Other than Vandy, Duke, Rice, Emory, and maybe Tulane and Davidson there is certainly not the public vs. private stigma in the south. The next level down of private schools (Rhodes, Sewanee, Centre, Furman, Wofford ect..) are not viewed any differently than the public schools and student tend go to these schools because they like the small school feel. The same is certainly not true up north where the list of private school that are viewed as better than the publics is significantly longer.

I agree with HuskyHawk's comment on the how unknown the northern privates are outside of NE. It is one of the reasons my son is thinking about transferring as he has pretty much decided he is a southern guy after a few semesters in Boston.

 

[upstater]

Other than Vandy, Duke, Rice, Emory, and maybe Tulane and Davidson there is certainly not the public vs. private stigma in the south. The next level down of private schools (Rhodes, Sewanee, Centre, Furman, Wofford ect..) are not viewed any differently than the public schools and student tend go to these schools because they like the small school feel. The same is certainly not true up north where the list of private school that are viewed as better than the publics is significantly longer.

I agree with HuskyHawk's comment on the how unknown the northern privates are outside of NE. It is one of the reasons my son is thinking about transferring as he has pretty much decided he is a southern guy after a few semesters in Boston.

He may also fine he's easily the sharpest guy in many of his classes.

I'm half kidding but if they are drawing from the top high schools down south, it's not the same as the caliber of student up north. But I only know this anecdotally from my niece who moved to Connecticut after attending a top HS in Florida and her being a top student growing up there all her life. She was an A+ student who was suddenly getting Cs in Connecticut, but only because she was a year behind the Connecticut kids in all her subjects. It took 6 months of intensive tutoring for her to catch up. Her 2nd year (she went to Staples) she started getting all As again.

Again--I haven't seen any studies, but I do know that kids up here in Buffalo begin Geometry freshman year in HS having already completed Algebra I in 7th and 8th grade.

 

[hoopsfan22]

This is another example of what happens when we have a permanent subsidy to the southeast. Federal tax dollars going into southern state coffers as block grants and are repurposed as lower taxes, subsidies to corporations and reduced cost of tuition at the state schools in the south. Connecticut taxpayers are paying for Connecticut kids to go to Clemson.

Connecticut tax payers are also paying for the cleanup of their plentiful and super expensive natural disasters like hurricanes, floods, and collapsing waterfront apartment buildings. People down there get to live in a no tax-no regulation tropical paradise, and we get to pay for it.

 

[Guapo]

I'd do some analysis of UMass vs. Texas A&M.

yes I meant state schools.

that’s fair, I guess, it probably also depends on the degree. If you want to be an engineer or work in the energy sector in some form, TAMU is obviously the better choice.

 

[upstater]

Their parents are still paying even if the kids are not (and some probably are). Those parents are looking at costs. And quality for price is better outside the Northeast. I don't think the rankings are a meaningful look at at actual educational quality. I think the actual education is much, much closers to being about the same at schools ranked #120 and #60. It's simply a measure of prestige in most cases, and in others, specific departments may be strong or week vs the overall ranking.

When I tell folks from Texas my daughter is going to Northeastern, many have never heard of it. Or BU. They sure as hell have never heard of Hamilton. Most people in New England have never heard of Hamilton. They'd need to look it up to tell you it wasn't like Quinnipiac. Professional school admissions people, that's who has heard of Hamilton.

Sports matters. College sports exists not because it makes lots of money, mostly they lose money. It exists for marketing. It drives brand recognition. Clemson is seen on TV, it becomes desirable, kids with better grades and test scored go there, the ranking goes up. Rinse, repeat. You can succeed just fine from any state directional school, you can certainly do fine from any state flagship.

They never heard of BU?

BU draws 75% of its students from outside New England. A lot of them come from the south. That's a little weird to me.

Anyway, I would not agree that quality for price is better outside the northeast.

 

[NJHusky]

Connecticut tax payers are also paying for the cleanup of their plentiful and super expensive natural disasters like hurricanes, floods, and collapsing waterfront apartment buildings. People down there get to live in a no tax-no regulation tropical paradise, and we get to pay for it.

Thanks!

 

[superjohn]

Connecticut tax payers are also paying for the cleanup of their plentiful and super expensive natural disasters like hurricanes, floods, and collapsing waterfront apartment buildings. People down there get to live in a no tax-no regulation tropical paradise, and we get to pay for it.

That's absolutely the case but what I've never understood is why? Why do the northeast states and Illinois pay billions every year to the federal gov't and the Southern states take billions every year from the federal gov't? The northeast and Illinois continue to lose population to the South as we're paying for the South. How on earth is this relationship beneficial to the northeast and Illinois?

 

[upstater]

That's absolutely the case but what I've never understood is why? Why do the northeast states and Illinois pay billions every year to the federal gov't and the Southern states take billions every year from the federal gov't? The northeast and Illinois continue to lose population to the South as we're paying for the South. How on earth is this relationship beneficial to the northeast and Illinois?

It's how you create a strong country, by taking surpluses and routing them to areas that need it, creating a more balanced and efficient country. In theory this is how it's supposed to work.

But as you pointed out, if the money is not going to be invested, then it defeats the purpose of rerouting surpluses. This is a political problem. In a normal country, everyone would agree that rerouting surpluses would be a benefit to everyone including the northeast. Ex. Germany and the former East Germany--it took 15 years, but the East has mostly caught up.

In the US, we don't have the same agreed mentality about infrastructure and investment. So we're still battling since the TVA to get on the same page.

If the process ever actually worked, it would benefit the northeast as well.