Men Penders needs to be suspended

[JMick]

So many simps and so many excuses. Wrong is wrong. Your entertainment shouldn't be valued over a college athletes health.

 

[Jax Husky]

Whatever. The science is good to create guidelines, but it does not look at singular situations with any context. Again, Peterson was into his 4th 24-hour period off. It is not something you want to do with any regularity, but a one-time scenario isn't as bad as many are making it to be in this case. I make no arguments for Penders' previous uses of pitchers. I am only speaking to this instance.

 

[navery12]

I pitched thru college. Most pitches thrown in a game was 161 in a 10 inning HS playoff game. I was capable of coming back in relatively short rest throughout college. Some pitchers can and some can't. Coaches know who can and can't based on throwing days between starts during the season. In general, the pitching coach would have the final say after consulting the pitcher. The pitcher/pitching coach relationship is vital to these decisions. I couldn't find an example of a pitcher who pitched on short rest during the CWS tournament and had a injury. If a pitcher was frequently overused in the regular season to win a conference title that would be a huge issue. Bottom line is that pitcher use is a recruiting issue. If a coach gets a "pitcher abuse" reputation he digs himself a big hole in recruiting.

That's a fair point that every pitcher is different, and I don't doubt that Peterson wanted to pitch yesterday. I just think it's Penders job to know better than to let that happen.

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John

 

[Jax Husky]

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John

If your argument here is about Anthony Kay, then fine. That is a pretty ridiculous scenario, and Penders deserves blame for that. That is not close to what happened with Peterson.

 

[gtcam]

Tell it to Nolan Ryan, Schilling, Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, the Niekros and hundreds of others who ignored the pitch count game and listened to their own arms.
I have the OP on ignore but was told what he said to start this off. Entitled to his opinion no matter how ridiculous it sounds/appears. If a college athlete feels he can go out there and pitch then you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. If Coach P put a gun to his head and forced him then yeah its not right but knowing JP, I am sure he asked the kid if he could go or the kid told JP he was a go.
OP can take his bat and go home now because he isn't even in the game on this, no matter how much ball he has said to have played,
Congrats Coach P and the entire UConn baseball family on an outstanding accomplishment - more to come!!!

 

[JMick]

That's a fair point that every pitcher is different, and I don't doubt that Peterson wanted to pitch yesterday. I just think it's Penders job to know better than to let that happen.

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John

Funny how no one else wanted to mention that

The responses in this thread are hilarious. People are acting like I want Penders tarred and feathered in the town square.

All I said is that the guy needs to be suspended because what he did is wrong. If no one else wants to set that precedent then we should. What's wrong with being on the forefront of change? Actions should have consequences.

 

[CL82]

other people do morally questionable things so when our team does it it's ok

Or, perhaps no one else in the world considers it “morally questionable”. Just something to think about.

 

[JMick]

Or, perhaps no one else in the world considers it “morally questionable”. Just something to think about.

Nah most people know it's wrong and they just do it anyway or sweep it under the rug. If you don't think it's wrong then you are stuck in the past and your opinion doesn't matter anyway. It's not 1970 anymore. Times have changed. We know more now than we did back then.

 

[CL82]

Nah most people know it's wrong and they just do it anyway or sweep it under the rug. If you don't think it's wrong then you are stuck in the past and your opinion doesn't matter anyway. It's not 1970 anymore. Times have changed. We know more now than we did back then.

Lol, “I have an opinion and everyone else is wrong.”

OK then.

 

[businesslawyer]

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries

1. You can't expect everyone to simply take your word for the fact that common practice allows material risks to be taken with pitchers arms that can be avoided. You very well may be right, but no rational person without in depth knowledge on this would take an anonymous poster's word for it.

2. More importantly, the incoming fire you're getting is not because of your medical opinion but because of the over the top solution. Which is suspending our coach for something that the rules allow and many other coaches do in these double elimination tournaments as well. Had you started with "The NCAA needs Pitch Count Mandates," you would not have gotten the same reaction. But even if you are 100% right on the medical, your proposal is not a sane solution to the problem.

 

[Dooooooomed]

 

[Sea Goat]

Perhaps some good points made by both sides. However, I definitely give Penders the benefit of the doubt, as I consider him to be one of the best UConn coaches period! Part of the problem is having a 64 team field and playing a double elimination regional tournament for the first weekend. With the double elimination condition, in effect, you start 132 "teams" (Each team has an alter ego if necessary. Consider zero loss UConn and one loss UConn etc. Zero loss UConn got beat, but one loss UConn won the regional.).

Sure you can win three straight and be done with it - 7 regional champions did just that this year. But you likely are going to have to play at least 4 games and might have to beat the same team twice. In part, this is because the fourth seeds generally don't survive to the final final. (Only 4th seed Air Force made it to a regional final - 1 of 16!) So, to keep auto bids for all conferences and the field at 64, maybe there could be a "play in" or "bye" scenario. I certainly don't want to see the auto bids go the way of the wind because I am not sure UConn would have made the field this year otherwise.

 

[HookC22]

Nah most people know it's wrong and they just do it anyway or sweep it under the rug. If you don't think it's wrong then you are stuck in the past and your opinion doesn't matter anyway. It's not 1970 anymore. Times have changed. We know more now than we did back then.

Correct! Times have changed! Something we agree on. Todays baseball players actually do strength and conditioning, prehab, rehab, and proper nutrition. They don’t just run poles for cooldown. And the science and training staff and light years ahead of the 1970s.

 

[businesslawyer]

That's a fair point that every pitcher is different, and I don't doubt that Peterson wanted to pitch yesterday. I just think it's Penders job to know better than to let that happen.

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John

Holy crap. You just jumped from medical theories, where I know there is a basis for your conclusions, to you know for a medical fact that how he was used in one particular fortnight caused Anthony Kay's injury? And not cumulative long term effects of throwing? I doubt a surgeon would ever reach such a conclusion. So I assume you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express?

 

[Griggs]

Whoever started this thread is totally insane!

 

[UConnRock]

Correct! Times have changed! Something we agree on. Todays baseball players actually do strength and conditioning, prehab, rehab, and proper nutrition. They don’t just run poles for cooldown. And the science and training staff and light years ahead of the 1970s.

i think some of the staff has been spending a bit too much time focusing on the not so proper nutrition and not on the strength/conditioning.

 

[JMick]

Lol, “I have an opinion and everyone else is wrong.”

OK then.

How Hard Are College Pitchers Worked?

Many NCAA programs overuse their pitchers. They shouldn’t.

tht.fangraphs.com

 

[navery12]

1. You can't expect everyone to simply take your word for the fact that common practice allows material risks to be taken with pitchers arms that can be avoided. You very well may be right, but no rational person without in depth knowledge on this would take an anonymous poster's word for it.

2. More importantly, the incoming fire you're getting is not because of your medical opinion but because of the over the top solution. Which is suspending our coach for something that the rules allow and many other coaches do in these double elimination tournaments as well. Had you started with "The NCAA needs Pitch Count Mandates," you would not have gotten the same reaction. But even if you are 100% right on the medical, your proposal is not a sane solution to the problem.

I think you're confusing me with JMick, I did not suggest suspending Penders

 

[JMick]

Correct! Times have changed! Something we agree on. Todays baseball players actually do strength and conditioning, prehab, rehab, and proper nutrition. They don’t just run poles for cooldown. And the science and training staff and light years ahead of the 1970s.

yeah that's why they all need tommy john surgery now.

 

[UConnRock]

That's a fair point that every pitcher is different, and I don't doubt that Peterson wanted to pitch yesterday. I just think it's Penders job to know better than to let that happen.

And it may not have been in the CWS but it happened with Anthony Kay at UConn. Penders kept him in for 127 pitches in an 18-1 blowout win during the regular season, and then threw him 101 pitches in the conference tournament and brought him back for 90 more on 3 days rest. He was drafted that June and immediately got Tommy John

And Crawford gets TJ after pitching a combined 20 innings (college and summer) over 2 years. Not defending the use of Kay in those situations, but the direct comparisons are difficult. Kay at 6' 200 lbs is just a different pitcher than Peterson at 6'6" 230

 

[navery12]

Holy crap. You just jumped from medical theories, where I know there is a basis for your conclusions, to you know for a medical fact that how he was used in one particular fortnight caused Anthony Kay's injury? And not cumulative long term effects of throwing? I doubt a surgeon would ever reach such a conclusion. So I assume you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express?

No I'm not saying any particular outing specifically caused his Tommy John, not with any level of certainty. But I don't think there's any argument against the idea that he was overused that season, and then got Tommy John. Maybe a coincidence, maybe not

 

[Jax Husky]

yeah that's why they all need tommy john surgery now.

There are probably 2 dozen pitchers that threw over 110 pitches total in multiple outings this weekend. I don't think even 5% of them will have Tommy John surgery (which btw, is a result of your genetics and mechanics more than anything).

 

[HookC22]

yeah that's why they all need tommy john surgery now.

So are you saying those are the cause of TJ's or the higher pitch counts?

 

[Viet Vet]

Let's not beat a dead horse. Why don't we all just give it a rest.

 

[UConnJim]

I looked at HS pitch count rules in every state and they require 3 or 4 days (about 50/50) of rest after throwing 109 pitches. In Connecticut, the CIAC requires 3 days of rest. Peterson had gone through three 24 hour rest periods before he pitched on Monday so his appearance was not outside the norm. All that said, using pitchers requires good communication between the coaches and the pitcher (and the bullpen catcher) as some pitchers require more time than others to recover from a start or an outing especially if they have an unorthodox throwing motion.

It does seem that the biggest issue with young arms is over-usage, especially with kids who pitch almost all year round and do not play multiple sports. The biggest change in youth baseball has been the extension of the season and that wears on young arms. It is not unusual for a youth to be focused on baseball and practice 11 months out the year and participate in Spring, Summer, and Fall baseball, sometimes on more than one team. If you have a kid who pitches, the parents have to have a pitch count log and communicate with coaches if their kid can or can not pitch as the coach may not know if the kid has pitched for another team.