Men Penders needs to be suspended

[CTBballfan243]

Oh the humanity……. “A ridiculous take, just “fake Twitter outrage”

 

[storrsroars]

I'm not a doctor nor a pitching coach. But I do know that in pitching, the delivery is everything. And if a pitcher has smooth mechanics and can maintain those mechanics throughout a game or a series, that pitcher can throw a lot of innings. It's when deliveries break down and become non-repeatable that injuries usually occur, as that's when arm stress occurs. I can't say whether that factored into Penders' decision to use him that much, but if a guy's delivery looks smooth and effortless, he isn't tiring, and still has command or his pitches, then it's probably pretty likely that pitcher is fine. Inning totals aren't everything. It's how much stress is involved in those innings.

 

[Skiblets]

First off, what kind of person after the program’s biggest win in over a decade starts a thread as absurd, as inflammatory, as accusatory as this one… towards a coach who is universally respected in the sport and has a long track record of not doing precisely what you’re accusing him of… the best answer would be a troll because the other options are worse… this whole thread should be shut down

Regarding your last post

1) “Morally questionable?” Have you considered the possibility that your entire premise may be wrong (as hard as it may be to believe)? You know for a fact Peterson is definitively overworked cause one time he threw 50 pitches on short rest? Definitive enough that Benedict should suspend Penders to save the kids (actually laughed out loud at this thought)? You don’t think widely respected baseball lifers like Penders and his staff have the wherewithal to make a one off call on a guy pitching on short rest on his throw day without compromising his arm health but somehow you can read the situation better? I mean maybe if we pitched our Saturday starter (like Maryland) you’d have a better case but even then how would you know? Not to mention we didn’t… Then again, maybe you’re simply omniscient and the joke is on us!

2) Who said throw day and a high leverage situation in a winner take all game were the same? Certainly not me… and didn’t see anyone else say precisely that either. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be considered in the broader context and factored in when considering the decision (for again, a one-off occurrence)… sometimes nuanced thinking is required…

3) I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s ok to overwork arms to the point of abuse just cause the pitcher happens to be young (and I certainly don’t condone that and yes there are times it happens)…but again I disagree with your premise that this was abuse of Peterson - there’s no way for you to know that and no significant evidence to support that notion…. Separately, people have very different ideas as to what constitutes “overwork”… I’m not interested in wading into that debate…

Technically he started in this during the game thread. Then started a separate thread during the game when Medic asked him to.

Super buzz kill

 

[UDann]

"other people do morally questionable things so when our team does it it's ok"

"it was his throw day" mhmm because a throw day and an intense game situation are totally the same thing

"he's a young kid it's fine" mhmm that's why all these kids are ruining their arms and getting tommy john in HS and college

Unfortunately fans who just want to win don’t get the damage that kind of workload does to a pitcher. It’s even worse in high school where as a parent constantly have check in with coach. My kid will never say No he wants to win like everyone else. But he does does tell me his arm is hurting. In these situations it’s a difficult call. Win or potentially hurt your player?

 

[JustbrewitMan]

109 pitches on Friday. Over 50 pitches today. It's inexcusable. The AD needs to step in and protect the athletes.

JMick & SuperJohn are the Drama-/Hysteria Twins of the 'Yard.

 

[Bomber36]

109 pitches on Friday. Over 50 pitches today. It's inexcusable. The AD needs to step in and protect the athletes.

Just a bit hyperbolic.

 

[JJTB]

They throw more than that on their “off“ day!

 

[YearoftheHusky]

Should Calhoun have benched Kemba during that BET and March Madness run bc of the back to backs and, well, people sustain lower body injuries all of the time if they are not rested?! See how dumb this argument is?

 

[KingLurk]

Funny story: I remember when Keith Law was complaining in the past about Penders' use of his pitchers and over using them... this was a few series back, I want to say it was the Oklahoma State series. I actually got into it a bit with him on twitter and he specifically mentioned how Stanford treated their pitchers so much better like Mark Appel.

Funny if you check Mark Appel's career history.

 

[ATLDYKA]

109 pitches on Friday. Over 50 pitches today. It's inexcusable. The AD needs to step in and protect the athletes.

I guess every coach would be suspended then because every team did it. Plus it wasn't like he came back the next day, he did have 3 days rest since Friday.

 

[UConnRock]

It is an interesting discussion. It is very true that pitching on 2 or 3 days rest increases the chance of injury. The option would be for the NCAA to establish pitch count/rest standards. This would essentially hand the regionals to the power teams who are able to recruit and keep a bevy of top level pitchers. I did a quick review of Vanderbilt's box scores, as they had to go through the losers bracket in the Oregon St. Regional. Vandy used 12 pitchers and only one pitcher was used twice in the regional. They had a couple of blow out games and didn't have to use many arms in those games. Even in the final elimination game against Oregon St. they used 5 pitchers that did not see action in the previous 4 games. That is depth that few teams have. Even Maryland had to use multiple pitchers on limited rest. I was in absolute disbelief when Maryland brought Ramsey in on Sunday after he threw 80 pitches on Friday. Penders actions w/ Peterson pale in comparison to what the Maryland coach did. If you establish pitch count standards for college baseball you might as well do away with the 64 team tournament as non-power conference school would have no chance. Even some power conference teams would be at a huge disadvantage w/ pitch count/rest standards.

 

[KingLurk]

Should Calhoun have benched Kemba during that BET and March Madness run bc of the back to backs and, well, people sustain lower body injuries all of the time if they are not rested?! See how dumb this argument is?

This is a really good analogy.

I think most athletes want to get paid. Kemba got paid. He also got a title in college. Seems to be worth it. Kemba's biggest problem in the NBA was that he spent the best years of his career in Charlotte.

 

[businesslawyer]

It is an interesting discussion. It is very true that pitching on 2 or 3 days rest increases the chance of injury. The option would be for the NCAA to establish pitch count/rest standards. This would essentially hand the regionals to the power teams who are able to recruit and keep a bevy of top level pitchers. I did a quick review of Vanderbilt's box scores, as they had to go through the losers bracket in the Oregon St. Regional. Vandy used 12 pitchers and only one pitcher was used twice in the regional. They had a couple of blow out games and didn't have to use many arms in those games. Even in the final elimination game against Oregon St. they used 5 pitchers that did not see action in the previous 4 games. That is depth that few teams have. Even Maryland had to use multiple pitchers on limited rest. I was in absolute disbelief when Maryland brought Ramsey in on Sunday after he threw 80 pitches on Friday. Penders actions w/ Peterson pale in comparison to what the Maryland coach did. If you establish pitch count standards for college baseball you might as well do away with the 64 team tournament as non-power conference school would have no chance. Even some power conference teams would be at a huge disadvantage w/ pitch count/rest standards.

Between what's good for my entertainment and what's good for the athletic future of young men, that shouldn't even need a discussion. If it changes the competitive balance of regionals, argue for a single elimination tournament. Or expand the tourney by a week and do a pair of best of 3 series to get to 16. That shouldn't be what guides this.

But, as I said before, wanting the school to suspend Penders for playing by the rules and doing what his competitors are doing is really pretty dumb. If the current rules are causing a material risk of injury, change the damn rules. As the NCAA has done in football with the crackdown on targeting. They don't expect each coach to try to teach his players not to do things that the rules allow.

 

[DoctorWho85]

This is certainly a take.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

I think the number of games these kids play in regionals is insane

 

[Jax Husky]

JMick is way overreacting. Peterson was into his 4th day of rest based on the time that he left the game on Friday and when he came in on Monday. A one-time scenario like this does not ruin a pitcher. I this was a regular occurrence, we could have this argument, but a guy throwing his bullpen in a game instead of practice for a regional is a non issue. 109 pitches is not some crazy taxing number like many seem to think. 100 pitches is used as a benchmark in general relative to keeping a guy fresh for the entire season, not in a one-off situation. I pitched in college as well, so I have some experience relative to this.

 

[UConnRock]

I think the number of games these kids play in regionals is insane

That is on top of many schools playing lengthy double elimination tournaments in their respective league tournaments.

 

[navery12]

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries

 

[Jax Husky]

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries

You're embarrassed by people having a different opinion? i have yet to see anyone here say "F it, do what you gotta do to win". What I see are people arguing that the risk was not nearly as severe as some are making it out to be. Peterson was at 72+ hours of rest. He would have thrown 35 full out pitches in a bullpen session anyway. He is not going to be used like that regularly, or ever again.

 

[CtBaseball]

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries

The tone of this post implies that UConn was the exception, not the rule. If you think the nature of the game should be changed, argue that, but it is extremely disingenuous to act like Penders himself did something unusual in any way shape or form.

Should we suspend all of the several coaches in the regional who did the same thing? Or maybe just maybe is it more tied to a broader issue you want to question? Be honest about that instead of doing the flashy ad hominem thing.

 

[Palatine]

Penders needs a raise.​

 

[HookC22]

Just wanted to say I am actually pleasantly surprised by the responses in here. Level headed responses and pointing out the fact that this guy is calling for Penders head when it is common place in college baseball.

Listen, would I have preferred if Peterson didnt pitch? Absolutely, but he did and the coaching staff made that decision based on all their info. Thankfully, we have the Sat-Mon regional slot so we can rest all arms.

Last point, don't show up here in this forum after last night and put Penders on blast. You cannot question Jim Penders' (or any of the other coaches) integrity or care for his players. He is one of the most upstanding people I know. That is from the view point of growing up in CT and spending 4 years playing under him. And if you don't value my opinion, go jump on twitter and look at all the comments from former players and college baseball personnel. (off my soap box)

 

[navery12]

You're embarrassed by people having a different opinion? i have yet to see anyone here say "F it, do what you gotta do to win". What I see are people arguing that the risk was not nearly as severe as some are making it out to be. Peterson was at 72+ hours of rest. He would have thrown 35 full out pitches in a bullpen session anyway. He is not going to be used like that regularly, or ever again.

When the opinion is actively putting UConn baseball players in harm's way yes. The risk is incredibly severe and the science backs that up. The bullpen day theory has also been disproven by science, and doesn't really hold up when he had to throw 2 bullpen sessions to warm up (he was up twice before coming in) and then threw 50 pitches

 

[navery12]

The tone of this post implies that UConn was the exception, not the rule. If you think the nature of the game should be changed, argue that, but it is extremely disingenuous to act like Penders himself did something unusual in any way shape or form.

Should we suspend all of the several coaches in the regional who did the same thing? Or maybe just maybe is it more tied to a broader issue you want to question? Be honest about that instead of doing the flashy ad hominem thing.

It's absolutely not just a Penders issue and is something that needs to be addressed as a whole. Penders didn't do something unusual, because he has a history of doing this and has been called out for it multiple times before. It's a major issue for him, despite him being one of the best college baseball coaches

I didn't say anything about suspending him so don't bring in a strawman argument here, take that up with JMick. As a repeat offender and a UConn fan of course I'm going to bring up Penders as the example, other coaches also being wrong doesn't make him right

 

[UConnRock]

I'm embarrassed by all the responses to this thread. People really can't possibly fathom that their favorite school could make a wrong decision. Lots of tough guys in this thread who know nothing about baseball/injuries

I pitched thru college. Most pitches thrown in a game was 161 in a 10 inning HS playoff game. I was capable of coming back in relatively short rest throughout college. Some pitchers can and some can't. Coaches know who can and can't based on throwing days between starts during the season. In general, the pitching coach would have the final say after consulting the pitcher. The pitcher/pitching coach relationship is vital to these decisions. I couldn't find an example of a pitcher who pitched on short rest during the CWS tournament and had a major injury. However, pitcher overuse is a cumulative process. If a pitcher was frequently overused in the regular season to win a conference title that would be a huge issue. Bottom line is that pitcher use is a recruiting issue. If a coach gets a "pitcher abuse" reputation he digs himself a big hole in recruiting.