OT - Patriots

[Waquoit]

On Amendola, I'm shocked at his lack of production but also, he's had three huge 3rd down receptions wiped out on penalties this year. One in each of the first three games.

That's the only way the guy can get open.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

I didn't keep saying it. I referred to 2012-2013 both the first and last time I said that, but messed it up with the middle mention.

You mean like below, in your first post when you said he had his best season in 2013-2014?

"Go back and look at Brady's numbers early last year. It was ugly.
Those of you saying he's overrated may want to consider what happened in the last 24 months.
Brady had his best year ever in 2013-2014 when the Patriots scored the 4th most points in NFL history. So next September comes around, and he's pronounced finished because he can't complete passes."

Furthermore your facts are way off. Brady's best season was 2007, when NE scored the most points by a team in an NFL regular season, the team was 16-0 in the regular season, and he broke the what was at the time the TD record. Also, the Patriots did not score the 4th most points in NFL history last year (which you said in your first post). No idea where you got that stat but you may want to do some fact checking.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d825a2bb1/article/most-points-in-seasonteam

 

[Waquoit]

It's a gotdam shame what the Pats have done to Brady. They have taken him for granted so long. Instead of providing him with weapons, they have steadily taken weapons away and now they blow.

 

[Deadrody]

As a Patriots fan, I think they'd be better with Jimmy G at the helm right now. Kid can play. Tom might revive his season and career, but he's going to have to change his approach in order to do it. I'm tired of people blaming the receivers when good receivers who did well in other systems can't get a ball thrown their way from Brady.

My god that's hysterical. ROTFLMAO!!!!

 

[intlzncster]

I've followed that losing franchise for 35 years. I'm at the point where I watch NFL Redzone and root for my FFL players, instead of wasting time watching the Geno Smith caliber QB's bumble their way to another 7-9 season.

And after seeing what happened when Calhoun retired from UConn, I am not holding my breath for the imminent demise of the Pats when Brady and Belichick hang 'em up.

Realistically, if the Jets could draft any semblance of a QB, they could have been pretty good the last few years. But there's not argument against the fact that they've whiffed terribly in that regard.

 

[intlzncster]

My god that's hysterical. ROTFLMAO!!!!

Seriously. And even if he was Dan Marino, Jimmy G couldn't get a throw off in 2 seconds either.

 

[intlzncster]

Obviously the Pats have been very good for very long. But being in that dreadful division certainly cant be ignored.

They play the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills each twice a year. That's 6 wins there if the Pats are any good. Go 6-4 in the rest of the ten and boom 12-4, first round bye and you win ONE GAME...at home... in Foxboro..when its freezing..and voila youre in the AFC championship game.

Look at last year. Beat an average Colts team at home and they're in the AFC championship game...

Problem with that analysis, is that it's rarely ever 6 wins. Teams you play often every year know you so much better, and annually tailor their personnel to beating the top team in the division. Plus Rex Ryan's D has always given the Pats fits.

 

[intlzncster]

Getting a 1/2 seed and the BYE most years helps big time.... again, that results from having a great regular season record from beating inferior teams within your division. There's no arguing what I'm saying. AFC East has been one of the weakest divisions in football for a LONG time. Outside of the Patriots, no team in that division has had a consistent QB for more than 5 years running, let alone an average QB.

Wrong. It has been anywhere between top 3 and middle of the pack for a long time. Also, the Pats don't rattle off 6 wins against division opponents for the reasons I posted directly above. They have one of the best non conference records year in, year out.

 

[intlzncster]

The Patriots under Belichick and Kraft are a system franchise. You take out Vinatieri, pay less money to Gostkowski and don't lose a step. Let Welker go, slide Edelman in that role, don't lose a step. That's why people think they're seen as "cheap". It's misleading.

That being said, that "system" approach applies to everyone on the roster....except Brady. He was the one coach on the field who made the system effective if it was Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Donte Stallworth, etc. You could plug and play any other position in and it was fine. The facts are now that his skill set is declining. Advanced metrics like "completion % under pressure" show him as no longer in the tier of a Brees or Rodgers.

You have:

a) Less talent in the receiving corp
b) A worse offensive line
c) A declining physical skill set

He's been able to overcome A and B at other points in his career. With C now in play? He simply can't.

B is the biggest one. This is the worst the offensive line has played in years; his time to throw is the lowest it's been in years. It's definitely affected him on those rare occasions when he has had time though.

We've got enough receiving talent right now. It all comes down to the O line.

If they somehow manage to get the line fixed, and Brady starts putting up his usual numbers, what's everyone going to say?

 

[intlzncster]

Agreed. Offense, except the running game, was pretty poor last year.

We didn't have Vereen for 9 games or so.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

6 wins? They don't sweep the division regularly. Their record is more often 4-2.

Yes, it should be six wins. 5-1 just for sake of argument, because every team has a bad day (or bad team a good one). The division is dreadful. Save 2 good years from the Jets and there hasn't been a single good team in the division in 12 years.

I mean honestly, has there been one good quarterback in the AFC east in the last 12 years? I mean one? Or even better, how many all-pro caliber offensive players has there even been? I honestly cant think of many. Thomas Jones for a year or two on the Jets. Ricky Williams? Brandon Marshall for a year or whatever on the Dolphins, but even he was a mess then.

I mean that's staggering. 3 teams for 12 years, 6 skill guys (qb, rb, te, 3 wr) and there literally hasn't been any offensive stars in that division and not a single very good qb.

 

[dsturdy5]

Yes, it should be six wins. 5-1 just for sake of argument, because every team has a bad day (or bad team a good one). The division is dreadful. Save 2 good years from the Jets and there hasn't been a single good team in the division in 12 years.

I mean honestly, has there been one good quarterback in the AFC east in the last 12 years? I mean one? Or even better, how many all-pro caliber offensive players has there even been? I honestly cant think of many. Thomas Jones for a year or two on the Jets. Ricky Williams? Brandon Marshall for a year or whatever on the Dolphins, but even he was a mess then.

I mean that's staggering. 3 teams for 12 years, 6 skill guys (qb, rb, te, 3 wr) and there literally hasn't been any offensive stars in that division and not a single very good qb.

Not a single good team twelve years? Aside from the two Jets teams, I can think of the 08 Dolphins went 11-5, the 06 Jets were 10-6, and the 05 Dolphins were 10-6...There are three more for you without much thought. No the AFC East is not the NFC West of this year or last but still...It hasn't always been dreck either.

 

[intlzncster]

Yes, it should be six wins. 5-1 just for sake of argument, because every team has a bad day (or bad team a good one). The division is dreadful. Save 2 good years from the Jets and there hasn't been a single good team in the division in 12 years.

This is just not true. Here are the actual numbers. From 2002 to 2013, non division game records:

Division W L T Pct.
AFC East 259 221 0 54%
NFC East 253 226 1 53%
AFC North 246 232 2 52%
NFC South 251 228 1 52%
AFC West 231 249 0 48%
AFC South 249 231 0 52%
NFC North 225 255 0 47%
NFC West 204 276 0 43%

You'll notice the AFC East was the strongest division against opponents outside it's division. The Patriots make the rest of the division look bad.

 

[HuskyHawk]

B is the biggest one. This is the worst the offensive line has played in years; his time to throw is the lowest it's been in years. It's definitely affected him on those rare occasions when he has had time though.

We've got enough receiving talent right now. It all comes down to the O line.

If they somehow manage to get the line fixed, and Brady starts putting up his usual numbers, what's everyone going to say?

I will be surprised and thrilled. I don't think it is all about the line, or the time. I think Tom is simply great at certain things and not others, and the way defense is played has changed. He's not improvisational, and he's going to need to be. I put a fair amount on McDaniels, who hasn't created an offensive system that functions well against attacking defenses. I saw one very encouraging play all night, when Tom threw the ball into coverage and hit LaFell perfectly. It's the kind of risky ball he used to throw and hasn't in a few years and it went to somebody other than Julian.

When I said Jimmy was better right now, that's what I meant. He's young, fearless and willing to make quick reads and unload the ball. Tom has gotten away from that and has to rediscover it. Blame the OL if you want, but he is taking forever to decide where to go with the ball and not seeing guys who are open. That's not what he used to be. It's not just the line, he used to burn teams that pressured him.

 

[intlzncster]

I will be surprised and thrilled. I don't think it is all about the line, or the time. I think Tom is simply great at certain things and not others, and the way defense is played has changed. He's not improvisational, and he's going to need to be. I put a fair amount on McDaniels, who hasn't created an offensive system that functions well against attacking defenses. I saw one very encouraging play all night, when Tom threw the ball into coverage and hit LaFell perfectly. It's the kind of risky ball he used to throw and hasn't in a few years and it went to somebody other than Julian.

When I said Jimmy was better right now, that's what I meant. He's young, fearless and willing to make quick reads and unload the ball. Tom has gotten away from that and has to rediscover it. Blame the OL if you want, but he is taking forever to decide where to go with the ball and not seeing guys who are open. That's not what he used to be. It's not just the line, he used to burn teams that pressured him.

That's fair enough. But, neither Tom nor Peyton are what I'd call improvisational QBs; they rely on enomous amounts of study and going through their progressions. Peyton's not struggling like Tom is, and he's not the QB he used to be either. His line has done a far better job for him. (but yes, it's not all the Oline)

I absolutely agree with the bit about McDaniels. I also find that he outsmarts himself. He'll call a series of brilliant plays, but then call some head scratchers on 3rd down that just kill a drive. He's very inconsistent. I've never been enamored with him, but the results spoke for themselves, so I lived with it. I hear Charlie Weiss is looking for a job though. Sign him up.

So the conclusion is that it is the line, the OC, young recievers, and Tom himself. We are ducked.

 

[Robertelamin]

6 wins? They don't sweep the division regularly. Their record is more often 4-2.

The division has sucked for a long time. Other than Brady who is the most successful QB in the AFC East this last decade? Mark Sanchez? Chad Pennington?

 

[intlzncster]

The division has sucked for a long time. Other than Brady who is the most successful QB in the AFC East this last decade? Mark Sanchez? Chad Pennington?

Then why do AFC East teams continually beat teams outside their division at a greater rate than any other division does? It doesn't compute.

 

[intlzncster]

I will be surprised and thrilled. I don't think it is all about the line, or the time. I think Tom is simply great at certain things and not others, and the way defense is played has changed. He's not improvisational, and he's going to need to be. I put a fair amount on McDaniels, who hasn't created an offensive system that functions well against attacking defenses. I saw one very encouraging play all night, when Tom threw the ball into coverage and hit LaFell perfectly. It's the kind of risky ball he used to throw and hasn't in a few years and it went to somebody other than Julian.

2nd reply. I just happened to read an article by Tedy Bruschi, and it's apropos of what we were discussing. Not trying to belabor the point or prove you wrong at all Hawk, just thought I'd pass along the comments as Tedy explained it much better than I did. Clarification on what I was talking about:

Also, it's time to lower your expectations offensively ...I don't know what can be fixed right now offensively when you have offensive line problems like they have. When you think your two offensive tackles might show you some good play, and they're not doing that. Then with two rookies in there, and a rotation they tried to implement -- Nate Solder's out, Solder's in; Ryan Wendell comes in and plays guard when he was your starting center for two years. They have major problems up front.

I'm going to tell you this: Even if they had Wes Welker, Randy Moss and whatever offensive weapons you want to name, they'd still be struggling, because they can't block. As much as you want offensive production, football on offense is about blocking first. If you can't run the ball or protect, you'll never a get a chance to see anything else.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/new-england-patriots-kanas-city-chiefs-tom-brady/

 

[Lefty2one]

Was in college from 2001-2005 up in Mass so regrettably I watched every Patriots game during their dynasty. The most amazing thing about that era, besides their ESP-like ability defensively to know what the opposition would do offensively (which all made sense later when Spygate dropped) was that Brady always had a phenomenal offensive line and all day to throw the football.

That OL supremacy continued even after they stopped winning Super Bowls but it's finally gone now. Brady doesn't have an eternity in the pocket and their skill positions, while never that strong, are at their worst while Brady is now officially an old man. An ugly combination.

The AFC East might be the worst division in pro sports now. It'll be interesting to see how long Belichek sticks around and how they handle Brady, wonder if he'll get unceremoniously cut one day like so many other Patriot stars over the last 15 years.

 

[dsturdy5]

Was in college from 2001-2005 up in Mass so regrettably I watched every Patriots game during their dynasty. The most amazing thing about that era, besides their ESP-like ability defensively to know what the opposition would do offensively (which all made sense later when Spygate dropped) was that Brady always had a phenomenal offensive line and all day to throw the football.

Ahh, the false narrative continues...

 

[HuskyHawk]

2nd reply. I just happened to read an article by Tedy Bruschi, and it's apropos of what we were discussing. Not trying to belabor the point or prove you wrong at all Hawk, just thought I'd pass along the comments as Tedy explained it much better than I did. Clarification on what I was talking about:

Also, it's time to lower your expectations offensively ...I don't know what can be fixed right now offensively when you have offensive line problems like they have. When you think your two offensive tackles might show you some good play, and they're not doing that. Then with two rookies in there, and a rotation they tried to implement -- Nate Solder's out, Solder's in; Ryan Wendell comes in and plays guard when he was your starting center for two years. They have major problems up front.

I'm going to tell you this: Even if they had Wes Welker, Randy Moss and whatever offensive weapons you want to name, they'd still be struggling, because they can't block. As much as you want offensive production, football on offense is about blocking first. If you can't run the ball or protect, you'll never a get a chance to see anything else.

Clearly...and yet, with that line, and Colin Kapernick, the D could not just pin their ears back and come. He'd burn them with feet, or feet and arm. Essentially I am saying that an aging Tom B, who was immobile when young and now doesn't even sense the rush well, and who has become very set in his ways in terms of locating receivers, is probably the worst possible guy to play behind a porous OL.

I drafted Brady for my FF team, because they picked up Stork, who I think is an upgrade, and got Gronk back, plus a solid WR in LaFell and had Dobson coming into a possible strong sophomore year. Heck throw in a healthy Amendola, who would be a good player on most teams. Didn't expect this. Brady has weapons right now, certainly way more than last year.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Clearly...and yet, with that line, and Colin Kapernick, the D could not just pin their ears back and come. He'd burn them with feet, or feet and arm. Essentially I am saying that an aging Tom B, who was immobile when young and now doesn't even sense the rush well, and who has become very set in his ways in terms of locating receivers, is probably the worst possible guy to play behind a porous OL.

I drafted Brady for my FF team, because they picked up Stork, who I think is an upgrade, and got Gronk back, plus a solid WR in LaFell and had Dobson coming into a possible strong sophomore year. Heck throw in a healthy Amendola, who would be a good player on most teams. Didn't expect this. Brady has weapons right now, certainly way more than last year.

You're the guy who said before that Garoppolo should start? And now you're saying that Kaepernick - who's erratic and demonstrates questionable decision-making on his good days - would thrive behind that O-line? I gotta question your acumen here. I'm not a Tom Brady fanboy by any means but no quarterback on the planet is going to succeed behind that line right now. And you're touting LaFell and Amendola like they're assets? They've been terrible. Hell, Gronkowski is a shell of his former self. It's sort of mind-boggling that you're trying to lay this on Brady. He's certainly declined, but he's not near the top of the list of problems with that offense right now.

 

[intlzncster]

You're the guy who said before that Garoppolo should start? And now you're saying that Kaepernick - who's erratic and demonstrates questionable decision-making on his good days - would thrive behind that O-line? I gotta question your acumen here. I'm not a Tom Brady fanboy by any means but no quarterback on the planet is going to succeed behind that line right now. And you're touting LaFell and Amendola like they're assets? They've been terrible. Hell, Gronkowski is a shell of his former self. It's sort of mind-boggling that you're trying to lay this on Brady. He's certainly declined, but he's not near the top of the list of problems with that offense right now.

I'd also add that they've activated and brought in a 6th offensive lineman as a 'tight end', at the expense of an inactive wide out, in order to plug some of the holes. Tough when the traditional 5 plus a regular tight end is not enough.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You're the guy who said before that Garoppolo should start? And now you're saying that Kaepernick - who's erratic and demonstrates questionable decision-making on his good days - would thrive behind that O-line? I gotta question your acumen here. I'm not a Tom Brady fanboy by any means but no quarterback on the planet is going to succeed behind that line right now. And you're touting LaFell and Amendola like they're assets? They've been terrible. Hell, Gronkowski is a shell of his former self. It's sort of mind-boggling that you're trying to lay this on Brady. He's certainly declined, but he's not near the top of the list of problems with that offense right now.

LaFell was the only decent player on the whole Patriots team last night...maybe Vereen. Amendola isn't terrible, Tom just won't throw him the ball or misses him like last week. If you don't like Kapernick, substitute Russell Wilson...anybody mobile and able to improvise and make something out of a broken play. With this line, that's all they can hope for.