OT - Patriots

[SWHuskyFan]

This is just not true. Here are the actual numbers. From 2002 to 2013, non division game records:

Division W L T Pct.
AFC East 259 221 0 54%
NFC East 253 226 1 53%
AFC North 246 232 2 52%
NFC South 251 228 1 52%
AFC West 231 249 0 48%
AFC South 249 231 0 52%
NFC North 225 255 0 47%
NFC West 204 276 0 43%

You'll notice the AFC East was the strongest division against opponents outside it's division. The Patriots make the rest of the division look bad.

That doesn't change the argument unless you remove the Patriots record from it. I would guess that the Patriots skew that results significantly. You could remove all the division leaders to make it apples to apples. I still think that doesn't exactly fit the argument as the Patriots are the only team who have completely dominated their division over that time period.

My guess is that record goes below .500 for the rest of the conference without the Pats and probably well below .500.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

You're the guy who said before that Garoppolo should start? And now you're saying that Kaepernick - who's erratic and demonstrates questionable decision-making on his good days - would thrive behind that O-line? I gotta question your acumen here. I'm not a Tom Brady fanboy by any means but no quarterback on the planet is going to succeed behind that line right now. And you're touting LaFell and Amendola like they're assets? They've been terrible. Hell, Gronkowski is a shell of his former self. It's sort of mind-boggling that you're trying to lay this on Brady. He's certainly declined, but he's not near the top of the list of problems with that offense right now.

Agree 100% with everything you said.

BUT, there is a big difference between succeeding and looking absolutely horrific (btw Rogers, Wilson, Peyton, Big Ben, Luck, even Cam would all do fine on this Pats team.) Cam has had a terrible o line and zero offensive help his entire career and he's done ok. The falcons lost everyone last year and their line was atrocious and Ryan did ok. Big Ben has no receivers outside Brown and an even worse O-line than the pats and he does ok.

PLUS he's Tom Brady. We have had it shoved down our throats for over a decade about how brilliant he is and how he's the greatest ever. Nobody should expect an 07 season from again, especially since he's 37, the o line has been bad, and differing opinions on his supporting cast and its talent level.

But he's supposed to be the greatest ever. Isn't he suppost to make up for some of these things?

The argument all along from Brady bashers has been that: while hes' very good, his greatness is a glorified product of a very good system and an excellent coach. Throw Rogers or Manning out on this Pats team and there's absolutely no way they look that inept. Blake freakin Bortles made his first start on a Jags team that has a far worse line and literally no talent to speak of and he looked like an decent qb. That's more than you can say about Brady right now. He doesn't even look ok. He looks absolutely terrible.

 

[jibsey]

I think Belichick outsmarted himself with a few of the offseason moves over the last couple of years.

Maybe a few more spies at other team's practices would help.

 

[jrazz12]

18-1

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Agree 100% with everything you said.

BUT, there is a big difference between succeeding and looking absolutely horrific (btw Rogers, Wilson, Peyton, Big Ben, Luck, even Cam would all do fine on this Pats team.) Cam has had a terrible o line and zero offensive help his entire career and he's done ok. The falcons lost everyone last year and their line was atrocious and Ryan did ok. Big Ben has no receivers outside Brown and an even worse O-line than the pats and he does ok.

PLUS he's Tom Brady. We have had it shoved down our throats for over a decade about how brilliant he is and how he's the greatest ever. Nobody should expect an 07 season from again, especially since he's 37, the o line has been bad, and differing opinions on his supporting cast and its talent level.

But he's supposed to be the greatest ever. Isn't he suppost to make up for some of these things?

The argument all along from Brady bashers has been that: while hes' very good, his greatness is a glorified product of a very good system and an excellent coach. Throw Rogers or Manning out on this Pats team and there's absolutely no way they look that inept. Blake freakin Bortles made his first start on a Jags team that has a far worse line and literally no talent to speak of and he looked like an decent qb. That's more than you can say about Brady right now. He doesn't even look ok. He looks absolutely terrible.

Then we don't agree 100%. First of all, the idea that those quarterbacks would "all do fine" is nothing but unfounded speculation. It would take Peyton and his surgically constructed spine about four snaps to suffer a career-ending injury on this Pats team. I'm not sure how you can compare what he works with in Denver to what we saw last night. But people who know a hell of a lot more about football than either one of us have said that. I also think - know - that you're underestimating what a problem the O-line currently is. But we'll see where New England ends up in November. I have a sense that a lot of this doomsday stuff will seem premature.

 

[intlzncster]

Then we don't agree 100%. First of all, the idea that those quarterbacks would "all do fine" is nothing but unfounded speculation. It would take Peyton and his surgically constructed spine about four snaps to suffer a career-ending injury on this Pats team. I'm not sure how you can compare what he works with in Denver to what we saw last night. But people who know a hell of a lot more about football than either one of us have said that. I also think - know - that you're underestimating what a problem the O-line currently is. But we'll see where New England ends up in November. I have a sense that a lot of this doomsday stuff will seem premature.

It happens every year, both in the offseason, and when they scuffle at the beginning of the year. People are always jumping all over themselves to claim the demise of the Pats.

That said, I'm not going to lie. I'm more concerned this year than I've been in the past.

 

[dsturdy5]

It happens every year, both in the offseason, and when they scuffle at the beginning of the year. People are always jumping all over themselves to claim the demise of the Pats.

That said, I'm not going to lie. I'm more concerned this year than I've been in the past.

This is precisely how I feel. I never really worry about the Patriots, and I feel like I have realistic expectations year in and year out. That being said, I'm getting concerned. If they are still playing this way in two or three weeks, I'll be in full panic mode. (Think "Boneyard after a regular season close game with Quinnipiac")

 

[upstater]

As a Patriots fan, I think they'd be better with Jimmy G at the helm right now. Kid can play. Tom might revive his season and career, but he's going to have to change his approach in order to do it. I'm tired of people blaming the receivers when good receivers who did well in other systems can't get a ball thrown their way from Brady.

Last year they asked Carson Palmer about Chad Johnson. Paraphrasing, he said, Chad gets open and can make catches, but he won't be at the exact spot you expect at the exact time you expect. You have to use your eyes, see him break open and throw him the ball. Brady won't do it for anyone. He throws to spots and expects the receiver is there. When your QB requires something from a WR that no other QB does, he's the problem. Tom just throws to Edelman because he's the only one who plays his game, not because he's actually any better than Amendola or Dobson or Lafell.

Oh my god, Garoppolo over Brady because of garbage time. Really? And if Chad Johnson was good, where did he end up after the Patriots? Nowhere. He was washed up. Heck, the guy wasn't even lining up in the right place. By the playoffs. He had no clue.

What receivers did well in other systems? Amendola? Before amendola got hurt last year, he caught 10 balls from Brady in one game. That guy has totally lost his explosiveness after his hernia.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Oh my god, Garoppolo over Brady because of garbage time. Really? And if Chad Johnson was good, where did he end up after the Patriots? Nowhere. He was washed up. Heck, the guy wasn't even lining up in the right place. By the playoffs. He had no clue.

What receivers did well in other systems? Amendola? Before amendola got hurt last year, he caught 10 balls from Brady in one game. That guy has totally lost his explosiveness after his hernia.

Agreed, it's hard to take seriously any anti-Brady argument that includes the purported wealth of skill position players at his disposal. He won three rings making some pretty anonymous receivers look good.

 

[upstater]

You mean like below, in your first post when you said he had his best season in 2013-2014?

"Go back and look at Brady's numbers early last year. It was ugly.
Those of you saying he's overrated may want to consider what happened in the last 24 months.
Brady had his best year ever in 2013-2014 when the Patriots scored the 4th most points in NFL history. So next September comes around, and he's pronounced finished because he can't complete passes."

Furthermore your facts are way off. Brady's best season was 2007, when NE scored the most points by a team in an NFL regular season, the team was 16-0 in the regular season, and he broke the what was at the time the TD record. Also, the Patriots did not score the 4th most points in NFL history last year (which you said in your first post). No idea where you got that stat but you may want to do some fact checking.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d825a2bb1/article/most-points-in-seasonteam

That was my second post on the matter. Not my first.

And yes the Patriots scored the 4th most points in 2012-2013. It was Brady's best year because unlike 2007, the points came in the run of play instead of piling them up. Brady wasn't on a quest to break TD passing records. Instead, they ran the ball for 26 TDs, 4 of them by Brady. This was the year everyone was impressed by Aaron Rodgers for throwing an amazing # of TDs, only the Packers averaged a TD less per game than the Patriots, and the Packers ran for 7 TDs to the Patriots 26.

By the way, before telling me to do some fact checking, why not provide a link that isn't very dated? Your link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d825a2bb1/article/most-points-in-season-team) is from August 2012. This would be the equivalent of claiming Peyton Manning doesn't have the TD pass record with a link dated back from 2009.

 

[upstater]

Yes, it should be six wins. 5-1 just for sake of argument, because every team has a bad day (or bad team a good one). The division is dreadful. Save 2 good years from the Jets and there hasn't been a single good team in the division in 12 years.

I mean honestly, has there been one good quarterback in the AFC east in the last 12 years? I mean one? Or even better, how many all-pro caliber offensive players has there even been? I honestly cant think of many. Thomas Jones for a year or two on the Jets. Ricky Williams? Brandon Marshall for a year or whatever on the Dolphins, but even he was a mess then.

I mean that's staggering. 3 teams for 12 years, 6 skill guys (qb, rb, te, 3 wr) and there literally hasn't been any offensive stars in that division and not a single very good qb.

Marshawn Lynch. Willis McGahee.

 

[upstater]

Was in college from 2001-2005 up in Mass so regrettably I watched every Patriots game during their dynasty. The most amazing thing about that era, besides their ESP-like ability defensively to know what the opposition would do offensively (which all made sense later when Spygate dropped) was that Brady always had a phenomenal offensive line and all day to throw the football.

That OL supremacy continued even after they stopped winning Super Bowls but it's finally gone now. Brady doesn't have an eternity in the pocket and their skill positions, while never that strong, are at their worst while Brady is now officially an old man. An ugly combination.

The AFC East might be the worst division in pro sports now. It'll be interesting to see how long Belichek sticks around and how they handle Brady, wonder if he'll get unceremoniously cut one day like so many other Patriot stars over the last 15 years.

I don't want to get into Spygate but clearly you don't know what Spygate was about.

The offensive plays are sent in to the QB through a radio in his helmet. Unless Edward Snowden has evidence that the Patriots tapped into those frequencies then you need to come up with another theory.

 

[intlzncster]

Marshawn Lynch. Willis McGahee.

Curtis Martin. HOF.

(there's been more, but still.)

 

[intlzncster]

I don't want to get into Spygate but clearly you don't know what Spygate was about.

The offensive plays are sent in to the QB through a radio in his helmet. Unless Edward Snowden has evidence that the Patriots tapped into those frequencies then you need to come up with another theory.

He doesn't want to hear it. That's one thing I've learned over the years, the spygaters just want to be able to say "spygate". It's the 'UCONN players stole laptops' of the NFL.

There's no use offering logic to combat willful ignorance.

 

[Fishy]

I don't want to get into Spygate but clearly you don't know what Spygate was about.

The offensive plays are sent in to the QB through a radio in his helmet. Unless Edward Snowden has evidence that the Patriots tapped into those frequencies then you need to come up with another theory.

I don't think those helmets can into use until after spygate was uncovered - I think their first year was the year after the Patriots were caught filming defensive signals at Giants Stadium. (2007?)

 

[StoweD210]

I don't think those helmets can into use until after spygate was uncovered - I think their first year was the year after the Patriots were caught filming defensive signals at Giants Stadium. (2007?)

Offensive signals have been sent in to the QB via helmet radio since 1994. Upstater was responding to someone who claimed the Patriots defense somehow benefited from the story from 7 years ago.

As to the main topic, New England looked awful on offense and defense on Monday. And they haven't had a great offensive game all season. Maybe this is "the end" and they are in serious trouble, but I think we won't know that for another 6 games or so.

Look at the results from last week: The Falcons destroyed Tampa Bay 56-14 and it could have been much worse if Atlanta really tried in the second half. The Steelers went to Carolina and convincingly beat the Panthers. What happened this week? Tampa went to Pittsburgh and won. The Falcons followed up their landslide win by losing by two scores in Minnesota, a team that New England beat by 34 points two weeks ago. It may end up being true, but it's hard to say that the wheels have come off for good in September.

 

[Fishy]

1994 - had no idea it was that long. Perhaps that's why they were limited to filming defensive signals.

Your analysis ignores that the Teddy Bridgewater era began this weekend and that the league now belongs to the Minnesota Vikings.

 

[LStudfellow]

Mankins trade looks dumber every week - there was a reason why Brady was furious about it. Game is lost every week in the trenches with the horrible O Line. Interesting stat - last time pats lost week 1 & 4 was 2003 when they didn't lose for the rest of the season. They're too smart to not figure it out and I think it's a bit too early to consider them out. The NFL season has been a weird one so far - I'm sure the gambling crowd would agree.

Ladies and Gentleman, we have a winner! It is ALL about the guys in the trenches, and this is the worst Offensive Line the Patriots have had since the mid 1990's. We would all look like crap if we were taking the beating that Brady is taking right now.

The only way this team makes the playoffs is because the other 3 teams in that division are from mediocre to woeful. That 7-point struggle versus Oakland last week was no mirage... the Patriots are in serious trouble.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

That was my second post on the matter. Not my first.

And yes the Patriots scored the 4th most points in 2012-2013. It was Brady's best year because unlike 2007, the points came in the run of play instead of piling them up. Brady wasn't on a quest to break TD passing records. Instead, they ran the ball for 26 TDs, 4 of them by Brady. This was the year everyone was impressed by Aaron Rodgers for throwing an amazing # of TDs, only the Packers averaged a TD less per game than the Patriots, and the Packers ran for 7 TDs to the Patriots 26.

By the way, before telling me to do some fact checking, why not provide a link that isn't very dated? Your link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d825a2bb1/article/most-points-in-season-team) is from August 2012. This would be the equivalent of claiming Peyton Manning doesn't have the TD pass record with a link dated back from 2009.

Regardless of the order of the post it still doesn't change the fact that you said they scored the 4th most points and he has his best year in 2013-2014. You can correct yourself now, but it was wrong when you first posted it.
Also, its very evident that you're saying the 2012 season was Brady's best is opinion based. They scored more points in 2007 than they did in 2012, Brady had a higher QBR, and he won the MVP so you can make a very strong case that 2007 was a better year for him.

 

[upstater]

Regardless of the order of the post it still doesn't change the fact that you said they scored the 4th most points and he has his best year in 2013-2014. You can correct yourself now, but it was wrong when you first posted it.
Also, its very evident that you're saying the 2012 season was Brady's best is opinion based. They scored more points in 2007 than they did in 2012, Brady had a higher QBR, and he won the MVP so you can make a very strong case that 2007 was a better year for him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_New_England_Patriots_season


"The 2012-2013 Patriots featured a prolific offense that broke the record for first downs in a season, with 444, and finished third all-time in scoring, with 557 points, finishing only behind the 2011 Green Bay Packers and their previous 2007 record setting season. Additionally, this was the third consecutive season that the Patriots exceeded 500 points scored, which tied the record set by the 1999– 2001 St. Louis Rams."

You can point to QBR all you like, or even passing rating. But those 26 rushing TDs were scored mostly when the Patriots got inside the 5 yard line, and they pounded the ball. 26 TDs and Green Bay (the 2nd most prolific offense in NFL history the prior year) only had 7 such TDs. That stat doesn't figure at all into QBR and passer rating.

Regardless, you keep saying my statistics are wrong but actually you're wrong on the stats. Either that, or you have severe difficulty with reading comprehension.

 

[intlzncster]

This is precisely how I feel. I never really worry about the Patriots, and I feel like I have realistic expectations year in and year out. That being said, I'm getting concerned. If they are still playing this way in two or three weeks, I'll be in full panic mode. (Think "Boneyard after a regular season close game with Quinnipiac")

Plus, we are about to play an astoundingly complete Bengals team on a short week. Then two divisional games. If we go 2-1 I'll be happy. I'm thinking it'll be 1-2 though.

 

[upstater]

Plus, we are about to play an astoundingly complete Bengals team on a short week. Then two divisional games. If we go 2-1 I'll be happy. I'm thinking it'll be 1-2 though.

How does the NFL manage to schedule a team coming off Monday night against a team with a bye week?

I mean, they can't do better than that?

 

[intlzncster]

How does the NFL manage to schedule a team coming off Monday night against a team with a bye week?

I mean, they can't do better than that?

I forget who it was (Detroit maybe?), but last year I think some team had Monday Night/Sunday day/Thursday night in that order. Criminal.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

Go back and look at Brady's numbers early last year. It was ugly.

Those of you saying he's overrated may want to consider what happened in the last 24 months.

Brady had his best year ever in 2013-2014 when the Patriots scored the 4th most points in NFL history. So next September comes around, and he's pronounced finished because he can't complete passes.

In December, he was throwing to Gronkowski, Wes Welker, Aaron Hernandez and Brandon Lloyd (who caught 70-80 passes). In September, he was throwing to none of these guys. None of them were on the field, and when Gronk came back, he tore his knee ligaments badly.

That's what's changed.

You may have noticed that he's now throwing to Edelman (who is fantastic), a gimpy Gronk, and a bunch of JAGs at WR who were unwanted by former teams.

When you have no one to throw to, it's a night and day difference.

I'm just going to quote the post (your first post on the thread btw) so you can see what I'm referring to. I'll even bold and italicize the sentence for you...you know, because my reading comprehension is so bad. As you can see above, you stated that "Brady had his best year ever in 2013 - 2014.."

Now, let me say this again. Brady did NOT have his best year ever in 2013-2014. He really didnt have his best year in 2012-2013 either... you can argue the team did (I can see your points there)... but Brady definitely has his best year in 2007. I hope thats clear enough for you... afterall you were the one who said it.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, etc. were very good. LaFell and Edelman are better than that? No.

Let me state this again: the Patriots had their best offensive year in 2013-2014, and a few short months later, when their 4 top pass catchers were gone, they became abysmal on offense.

How is this not the likeliest explanation for the problems? When you go from Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez and Lloyd to Edelman and a bunch of street free agents in half a year, and you see different results, why in the world would anyone draw anything but the most obvious conclusion?

This is your second post. I bolded and italicized the sentence in question this time too. As you can see you also stated here (you even reiterated it from your first post) that :"the Patriots had their best offensive year in 2013-2014". You switched from just Brady to the team here, but regardless you still have the year wrong.