NCAA To Re-Open UNC Investigation

[Dooley]

'Bout Time. The reasoning they gave to not punish UNC was utter nonsense..."The NCAA has been hesitant to punish the school in the past because the phony courses in question were not solely available and beneficial to athletes. When the general student body as a whole is subject to academic fraud, the NCAA has traditionally not taken action an instead let the universities take action against themselves."

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...cademic-fraud-investigation-at-north-carolina

Bottom line: you can't ban UCONN for a silly APR metric and then not punish UNC at all for their completely fraudulent athletic department.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

If the NCAA was not defending itself and the academic 'integrity' of amateur collegiate athletics against several suits right now, the NCAA would not touch UNC.

 

[freescooter]

They'll probably decide UNC has suffered enough. Though maybe require them to wear Louisville jersies in 2 games. talk about academic embarrassment!

 

[Sea Goat]

Let's wait and see if there are any teeth to an investigation. It would be a cruel irony if UConn gets penalized for kids doing poorly in real classes, while UNC skates for kids doing great in phony classes.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Let's wait and see if there are any teeth to an investigation. It would be a cruel irony if UConn gets penalized for kids doing poorly in real classes, while UNC skates for kids doing great in phony classes.

Pretty sure you just defined travesty.

 

[Calamitous]

'Bout Time. The reasoning they gave to not punish UNC was utter nonsense..."The NCAA has been hesitant to punish the school in the past because the phony courses in question were not solely available and beneficial to athletes. When the general student body as a whole is subject to academic fraud, the NCAA has traditionally not taken action an instead let the universities take action against themselves."

Don't expect anything to come of this, now that UNC has "paid their dues" with their recent probation period. If stuff like this occurred at most other non-storied universities, they'd probably get the death penalty. I'm afraid to poke too much fun at UNC though, because I could see this happening anywhere. I cross my fingers that it doesn't happen at my school... but you never know.

On a side note, I believe it was UNC that voted against my school in 2003, citing lack of institutional control, poor academics, etc.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Don't expect anything to come of this, now that UNC has "paid their dues" with their recent probation period. If stuff like this occurred at most other non-storied universities, they'd probably get the death penalty. I'm afraid to poke too much fun at UNC though, because I could see this happening anywhere. I cross my fingers that it doesn't happen at my school... but you never know.

On a side note, I believe it was UNC that voted against my school in 2003, citing lack of institutional control, poor academics, etc.

So, you're saying what? No rules or just no cops? It's OK to have rules as long as nobody gets held accountable for breaking them? Or is it more personal...rules for others are OK as long as my school is allowed to skate?

 

[Calamitous]

So, you're saying what? No rules or just no cops? It's OK to have rules as long as nobody gets held accountable for breaking them? Or is it more personal...rules for others are OK as long as my school is allowed to skate?

Sounds like you know the answers based on your questions. I'm not anywhere close to understanding how the NCAA runs it's organization. The NCAA does seem extremely dysfunctional and subjective in their rulings. It wouldn't surprise me if nothing becomes of this UNC mess. And history tells me that life isn't fair and that we also live in glass houses. So thinking yours or my school follows the rules and behaves better than others seems like a risky assumption.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Sounds like you know the answers based on your questions. I'm not anywhere close to understanding how the NCAA runs it's organization. The NCAA does seem extremely dysfunctional and subjective in their rulings. It wouldn't surprise me if nothing becomes of this UNC mess. And history tells me that life isn't fair and that we also live in glass houses. So thinking yours or my school follows the rules and behaves better than others seems like a risky assumption.

I know my answers but not yours, hence the questions. What (little) I know of the NCAA's handling of UConn's APR issue versus what they'd done regarding North Carolina's fake classes does perplex me. It doesn't seem fair. While life can, indeed, be unfair at times, it can also be fair. I hold the position that life is far more fair than unfair, that I prefer fair to unfair, and that if imperfection prevents us from achieving a perfectly fair existence, it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for fairness as a goal. You seem to take the position that because others game the system, you'd better take advantage too, a sort of personal evening the score, even though that makes things less fair overall. I don't know that of course and you're more able to articulate your position than I.

 

[Calamitous]

I know my answers but not yours, hence the questions. What (little) I know of the NCAA's handling of UConn's APR issue versus what they'd done regarding North Carolina's fake classes does perplex me. It doesn't seem fair. While life can, indeed, be unfair at times, it can also be fair. I hold the position that life is far more fair than unfair, that I prefer fair to unfair, and that if imperfection prevents us from achieving a perfectly fair existence, it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for fairness as a goal. You seem to take the position that because others game the system, you'd better take advantage too, a sort of personal evening the score, even though that makes things less fair overall. I don't know that of course and you're more able to articulate your position than I.

I think you read too much into what I said and greatly misunderstand me. I'm with you that the system needs to be fair... but it is far from that. I'm just pointing out that some schools work the system. I think UNC may be one of those schools that can work the system. My school would receive the death penalty in that same position. Is that clearer?

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I think you read too much into what I said and greatly misunderstand me. I'm with you that the system needs to be fair... but it is far from that. I'm just pointing out that some schools work the system. I think UNC may be one of those schools that can work the system. My school would receive the death penalty in that same position. Is that clearer?

I have no disagreement with your clarification.

 

[Pat125]

I agree with the philosophy that if there are academic integrity issues, it should not necessarily become an NCAA matter. For example, if a school has a professor who gives all students an A even if students don't show up to class, and there happens to be student-athletes in the class, this should not be an NCAA matter. But it appears the UNC case went well beyond this, with a high proportion of student-athletes involved. Now that a former player has implicated his coach, the NCAA had no choice but to reopen the case.

The charges are ultimately decided by representatives of NCAA institutions. While there could have been some undue influence by top NCAA administrators, I have trouble believing that UNC's peers would arbitrarily let them get away with it (e.g., despite all media reports, the infractions committee somehow did not have the evidence that reached the level to impose a penalty.) Of course, another possibility is these peers see similar scenarios going on in their institutions, and don't want to get investigated and penalized themselves. In any case, it does appear that an injustice was done.

My guess is that the APR bylaw involves metrics and a formula. If a team falls below a minimum standard, it is a violation, regardless of any qualitative criteria. These types of violations are much harder to defend against. If it is unfair, at is appears to be, it is up to the member institutions to change it. As long as Emmert is in charge, you won't be able to count on his leadership to propose such changes.

 

[Calamitous]

Of course, another possibility is these peers see similar scenarios going on in their institutions, and don't want to get investigated and penalized themselves.

THAT is the problem with big-time college athletics and the NCAA. Even the perceived innocent universities could be guilty and brushing unethical activities under the rug, hoping they never get caught.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Unless Emmert used to work for your school and managed a campus renovation programs that went well over budget and had massive quality control issues and just before your school figured out what was going on, fled for another job.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/04/02/ncaa-president-emmert-previous-cases-uconn-lsu/2047607

Then, Emmert will push for APR reforms that use data from 5 seasons ago when the APR requirements were lower and make the penalties for falling below the APR line retroactive back to then. While UConn absolutely shares some of the blame, UConn was defiantly targeted by the NCAA, which is why to date UConn has been the only major basketball program to be hit.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/story/2012-06-20/ncaa-apr-connecticut-ban/55713412/1

 

[freescooter]

I actually agree with the idea that if a school has an overall academic problem, it really is not an NCAA issue per se. If the school is awarding credit for non-existent classes, that's more a question of institutional integrity. On the other hand, if such a practice is documented, I would think that the NCAA's role ought to extend to any athletes who enrolled in the non-existent classes and their eligibility ought to be subject to review on a case by case basis. so if UNC's star, Joe Jumpshot was relying on his A in Professor Costanza's Philosophy 101, An Introduction to Nothing, to stay above the qualification line, and Intro to Nada was not actually a course, never met, had no requirements, you know, like lots of African American Studies classes and Naval History classes at UNC, then in my view the NCAA could rightly rule that Joe was ineligible and UNC had to forfeit any games he played in. Future eligibility would also opened to question, it seems to me. And lest anyone try to paint young Joe as a victim, as some will try to do, I would argue that A. he probably knew the class was bogus when he signed up; and B. By week 2, he almost certainly knew it was bogus; and C. when grades came out and he had neither attended nor submitted any assignments for Nada 101, he absolutely knew it was a bogus class.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Did I miss this from last week?

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11174322/fraud-charge-dropped-former-unc-professor

A prosecutor says he has dismissed a felony fraud charge against a former North Carolina professor linked to a scandal involving academics and athletics.
In a statement Thursday, Orange County district attorney Jim Woodall said he dropped the charge after Julius Nyang'oro cooperated with the criminal investigation and an independent probe into fraud in the department where Nyang'oro served as chairman.

If this guy sung like a canary things could get interesting.

 

[upstater]

Did I miss this from last week?

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/11174322/fraud-charge-dropped-former-unc-professor

A prosecutor says he has dismissed a felony fraud charge against a former North Carolina professor linked to a scandal involving academics and athletics.
In a statement Thursday, Orange County district attorney Jim Woodall said he dropped the charge after Julius Nyang'oro cooperated with the criminal investigation and an independent probe into fraud in the department where Nyang'oro served as chairman.

If this guy sung like a canary things could get interesting.

The guy was paid to do what he did.

 

[CL82]

The guy was paid to do what he did.

The guy was paid to do what he did.

Of course that doesn't make it right either for the institution doing the paying or the individual doing the grade fixing.

 

[Chin Diesel]

The guy was paid to do what he did.

I'm aware of that.

What interests me is the part about the prosecutor dropping charges due to his cooperation. Cooperation in prosecutorial term means he ratted some one out.

Let's hope the NCAA wasn't dumb enough to feed questions to the district attorney to ask him questions that he won't answer to the NCAA.

If I have the history correct, the state/county was going after him for fraud since he was paid to conduct classes that he didn't conduct. Cue the Casablanca faux surprise.

 

[upstater]

I'm aware of that.

What interests me is the part about the prosecutor dropping charges due to his cooperation. Cooperation in prosecutorial term means he ratted some one out.

Let's hope the NCAA wasn't dumb enough to feed questions to the district attorney to ask him questions that he won't answer to the NCAA.

If I have the history correct, the state/county was going after him for fraud since he was paid to conduct classes that he didn't conduct. Cue the Casablanca faux surprise.

Oh, I meant, paid not to conduct classes, but paid to conduct fake ones. In other words, quid pro quo.

 

[huskypantz]

So @upstater - are there university-specific requirements as to what a class must entail? I guess I'm asking where the fraud is if he is delivering courses that meet the minimum expectations of the university.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I'm aware of that.

What interests me is the part about the prosecutor dropping charges due to his cooperation. Cooperation in prosecutorial term means he ratted some one out.

Let's hope the NCAA wasn't dumb enough to feed questions to the district attorney to ask him questions that he won't answer to the NCAA.

If I have the history correct, the state/county was going after him for fraud since he was paid to conduct classes that he didn't conduct. Cue the Casablanca faux surprise.

Trouble is, it seems to me, that too often, the big guy skates by ratting out a little guy.

 

[Jimdish255]

If the intent was to funnel certain athletes into these fake classes to lighten their academic load, then the fact that a few other misc students were sprinkled among them was just window dressing. Hopefully he can answer that question.

 

[upstater]

So @upstater - are there university-specific requirements as to what a class must entail? I guess I'm asking where the fraud is if he is delivering courses that meet the minimum expectations of the university.

Yes, there are requirements. Each class is supposed to have a set of targeted outcomes and formal assessments. But as for oversight, this can only come from 3 places: the chair overseeing the class (the chair or program director writes reports on each class/or most classes, though with faculty input) and the student evaluations. I'd assume the failsafe for a truly backward situation would come from students. In my experience, there have been rare faux classes that are usually the byproduct of TAs or sometimes adjuncts failing to show up for class. This is something else altogether.

The ultimate "policing" of this issue should be the regional accrediting agency, which requires intensive checks.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Oh, I meant, paid not to conduct classes, but paid to conduct fake ones. In other words, quid pro quo.

I get the nod and a wink (that is what quip pro quo means, right?).

The point I was getting at is UNC made Nyang'oro the fall guy as soon as things got dicey. And then a prosecutor came after him for fraud- collecting payment for a service that wasn't rendered (fake classes). Now the prosecutor is dropping charges based on his cooperation.