NBA Playoffs | Page 79 | The Boneyard

NBA Playoffs

Joined
Sep 16, 2011
Messages
49,017
Reaction Score
168,922
Is it a hot take to suggest even Jordan, Pippen and Rodman wouldn't beat Steph, Klay, Durant and Draymond?
Used to think it was a tossup but the Bulls would win. Jordan would cut the head off the dragon (Curry), Pippen would slow down Durant, and you let Klay get his. With old NBA rules Bulls would win fairly easily. With today's rules Warriors would have a chance but I would still take the Bulls. The Warriors were vulnerable this year, not a vintage team, IMO.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
10,652
Reaction Score
16,132
They did go 1-1 against each other in the finals. Tim Duncan was a Bosh rebound/Ray Allen 3 away from being 2-0.

and Duncan was on the bench of course if Kwahi made his FT he the Ray 3 isn't possible and Duncan would be tied with MJ with 6 titles
 

Horatio

I’m Heat Miser and your Rudolph…
Joined
Dec 26, 2012
Messages
3,303
Reaction Score
12,373
If we’re talking about being a bad GM, how does that title not belong to Jordan? He drafted Kwame Brown, DJ Augustin and Adam Morrison, traded away Emeka Okafor and Gerald Wallace, traded for DeSanaga Diop and signed Matt Carroll and Tyrus Thomas as free agents.

Also LeBron’s game translates to other eras way better than Jordan’s does. Jordan in today’s NBA would be a rich man’s Demar DeRozan because he can’t shoot from beyond the arc.
I think Jordan traded Rip also.
 

Horatio

I’m Heat Miser and your Rudolph…
Joined
Dec 26, 2012
Messages
3,303
Reaction Score
12,373
That Cavs team is Horrible. What did the world expect.
 
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
3,804
Reaction Score
12,703
Right, kind of side with Barkley on this. MJ competitiveness is what separates he and LBJ.

I’m officially a flip flopper
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,246
Reaction Score
34,972
Where did the idea come from that Jordan was better defensively? Peak LeBron is straight up better than Jordan on defense, it's actually not close. If you want to grade his defensive ability during a series where he plays 48 minutes have at it.
From 1986-1998, MJ produced 5+ defensive win shares every season but 2: one he only played 17 games, the other he created 4.3. So that's 9 out of 11 seasons, 9 out of 10 full seasons.

James produced fewer defensive win shares this year than Jordan did at 40 with the Wizards....He had 4 seasons producing 5 defensive WS total.

If you average the defensive WS by games played in the Playoffs (LeBron has played 60 more games in the Playoffs than MJ). LeBron averaged 0.066 dWS per game to Jordan's 0.069.
 
Joined
Jun 8, 2014
Messages
8,303
Reaction Score
27,112
Used to think it was a tossup but the Bulls would win. Jordan would cut the head off the dragon (Curry), Pippen would slow down Durant, and you let Klay get his. With old NBA rules Bulls would win fairly easily. With today's rules Warriors would have a chance but I would still take the Bulls. The Warriors were vulnerable this year, not a vintage team, IMO.
The Bulls would get washed by this GS team. Pippen never had to guard anyone like Durant, cuz there is no one like him. The hand-checking rule now would benefit the Warriors. And Draymond and Rodman would more or less cancel out, then Klay would score 30+ on whatever secondary defender the Bulls would put on him.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
5,040
Reaction Score
10,880
From 1986-1998, MJ produced 5+ defensive win shares every season but 2: one he only played 17 games, the other he created 4.3. So that's 9 out of 11 seasons, 9 out of 10 full seasons.

James produced fewer defensive win shares this year than Jordan did at 40 with the Wizards....He had 4 seasons producing 5 defensive WS total.

If you average the defensive WS by games played in the Playoffs (LeBron has played 60 more games in the Playoffs than MJ). LeBron averaged 0.066 dWS per game to Jordan's 0.069.

But he didn't carry the same overall burden. In the first round LeBron lead the Cavs in 9 stats for the series.

He averaged 34, 11, 9 this series and some say he didn't do enough.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,246
Reaction Score
34,972
Did you see him fight the previous 104 games?
I was only asking "what more did people want?"

Dude is one of the best 2-3 players ever. People are going to overanalyze everything he does. I, frankly, find it a bit silly. People were on KD about Game 1. He ended up averaging 29-11-7 on 53% shooting in a sweep.

LeBron having a meh Game 4 doesn't really affect his legacy to me. I'd have liked him to go out fighting a little better--to not get swept--but he is who he is. A generational talent who, if I were building a team of players throughout history, I'd pick before anyone except Jordan.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
13,246
Reaction Score
34,972
But he didn't carry the same overall burden. In the first round LeBron lead the Cavs in 9 stats for the series.

He averaged 34, 11, 9 this series and some say he didn't do enough.
I mean, he carried less of a burden with those early Heat teams, at least scoring-wise. Jordan never had a player as explosive as Wade, led alone a third wheel like Bosh.

And in those early regular seasons--and late ones, too, when Pippen was injured--Jordan was the only offensive threat and was still a monster defender. Even in the first three-peat, Jordan led the league in scoring, OWS, and USG% in addition to producing over 5 wins on the defensive end.
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
2,985
Reaction Score
9,300
Right, kind of side with Barkley on this. MJ competitiveness is what separates he and LBJ.

I’m officially a flip flopper

MJ’s competiveness was second to none but being more competitive does not make you a better player.

The Bulls would get washed by this GS team. Pippen never had to guard anyone like Durant, cuz there is no one like him. The hand-checking rule now would benefit the Warriors. And Draymond and Rodman would more or less cancel out, then Klay would score 30+ on whatever secondary defender the Bulls would put on him.

Exactly. The Bulls wouldn’t stand a chance, which is why LeBron’s finals record shouldn’t be held against him.
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Messages
1,127
Reaction Score
3,590
LeBron plays best when surrounded by shooters, something Simmons is awful at.
LeBron James just took a bunch of bums assembled at mid season the NBA finals and won the 1st game on the road.
Lol at the though that he couldn't figure out how to play with a talent like Simmons "because he needs shooters".
You could put the guy on the floor with 4 centers and he'd find a way to win.
 
Joined
Sep 16, 2011
Messages
49,017
Reaction Score
168,922
From 1986-1998, MJ produced 5+ defensive win shares every season but 2: one he only played 17 games, the other he created 4.3. So that's 9 out of 11 seasons, 9 out of 10 full seasons.

James produced fewer defensive win shares this year than Jordan did at 40 with the Wizards....He had 4 seasons producing 5 defensive WS total.

If you average the defensive WS by games played in the Playoffs (LeBron has played 60 more games in the Playoffs than MJ). LeBron averaged 0.066 dWS per game to Jordan's 0.069.
People don't like numbers in this thread. A million mumbers have been given and almost every response is some form of Lebron is better because I want him to be better.
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Messages
1,127
Reaction Score
3,590
The 8 straight finals is really impressive no matter what but becomes a lot less so when you know how sorry the East has been. Jordan had to go through way more 50+ and 60+ win teams on his way to winning it than Lebron did.
LeBron has beaten who was put in front of him, with a lot less help than Jordan had, and a lot better players on the other side of the ball.
Dude it's really not even all that close. Jordan is a better scorer, defender, and winner.
If LeBron wanted to, he could have led the league in scoring every year, if he wanted to. LeBron finishing top 5 in points and assists is something that Jordan was not capable of doing. And that's without LeBron getting all the touch calls that Jordan got. LeBron can also guard anybody on the court. Jordan was limited in that regard. Jordan was a better competitor? Hard to quantify that. But Jordan was 0-7 making the finals without a finals winning team. Right? In other words, he never was able to drag a bunch of bums to the finals like LeBron has done repeatedly in his career.
[Jordan] would never quit in closeout games like Lebron has done, it just wasn't in his DNA.
BS. I already posted stats for game 5 against Indiana. Guy put up numbers worse than LeBron's last night in a close out game. You're making stuff up.
In 90, Jordan lost to the Pistons in 7. 20 points in a game 2 loss. 22 in a game 5 loss. By your definition, that's giving up, right? Not bringing it? Right? Avoiding the tough-D Pistons. Right? Playing soft? Right? Not once, but TWICE. And he did it in a winnable series, costing his team the victory and folding before making the finals. LeBron finds a way to win that series. Lol.

Regarding Jordan's defensive prowess, he was a great defender. Let's not forget, however, that the athleticism of the players was substantially less than what it is now. Substantially. The athleticism in the league is off the charts now compared to the 80s.

This year jumped LBJ's legacy up a huge amount. Guy took a bunch of bums assembled at midseason and got them to the finals. People talk about 8 in a row with 2 teams. More like 4 or 5 teams. Unreal that his team acquired a bunch of journeymen midseason and he got them to the finals.
Who was his second? Rotating among Jeff Green, Rodney Hood, Hill, and Love?

Unreal.

Legacy growing.

Philly + 2 more ships and only the haters will be left in the Jordan camp.
 

Stainmaster

Occasionally Constructive
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
22,004
Reaction Score
41,501
Apparently LBJ broke his hand punching a whiteboard after Game 1...interesting.
 
Joined
Sep 16, 2011
Messages
49,017
Reaction Score
168,922
LeBron has beaten who was put in front of him, with a lot less help than Jordan had, and a lot better players on the other side of the ball.

If LeBron wanted to, he could have led the league in scoring every year, if he wanted to. LeBron finishing top 5 in points and assists is something that Jordan was not capable of doing. And that's without LeBron getting all the touch calls that Jordan got. LeBron can also guard anybody on the court. Jordan was limited in that regard. Jordan was a better competitor? Hard to quantify that. But Jordan was 0-7 making the finals without a finals winning team. Right? In other words, he never was able to drag a bunch of bums to the finals like LeBron has done repeatedly in his career.

BS. I already posted stats for game 5 against Indiana. Guy put up numbers worse than LeBron's last night in a close out game. You're making stuff up.
In 90, Jordan lost to the Pistons in 7. 20 points in a game 2 loss. 22 in a game 5 loss. By your definition, that's giving up, right? Not bringing it? Right? Avoiding the tough-D Pistons. Right? Playing soft? Right? Not once, but TWICE. And he did it in a winnable series, costing his team the victory and folding before making the finals. LeBron finds a way to win that series. Lol.

Regarding Jordan's defensive prowess, he was a great defender. Let's not forget, however, that the athleticism of the players was substantially less than what it is now. Substantially. The athleticism in the league is off the charts now compared to the 80s.

This year jumped LBJ's legacy up a huge amount. Guy took a bunch of bums assembled at midseason and got them to the finals. People talk about 8 in a row with 2 teams. More like 4 or 5 teams. Unreal that his team acquired a bunch of journeymen midseason and he got them to the finals.
Who was his second? Rotating among Jeff Green, Rodney Hood, Hill, and Love?

Unreal.

Legacy growing.

Philly + 2 more ships and only the haters will be left in the Jordan camp.
Lebron won game 1 even though the Warriors scored more points because I say so, wahhh.

Lebron could do stuff if he wanted to, wahhh.

Jordan played better teams and won a lot more but I like Lebron more so I say he's better, wahhh.

Jordan played with less Hall of Famers and all-stars but I like Lebron so that doesn't matter, wahhh.

Jordan got more calls than Lebron because I say so, wahhh.

Jordan was a better defender but it's 2018 and athletes weren't good in the 90's, wahhh.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
9,349
Reaction Score
23,552
10 scoring titles to 1, 6 for 6 championships, 9 1st team all defense to 5 for Lebron (Jordan still 1st team all defense his last year as a Bull, Lebron hasn't been on any all defense team since 2013), one of those years Jordan got MVP, defensive player of the year, and finals MVP. Jordan beat way more 50+ and 60+ win teams in the playoffs.

There are just so many numbers in Jordan's favor but as you stated the biggest thing is you wouldn't see a passive Jordan like you saw from Lebron last game and you wouldn't see Jordan quit in a closeout game. The idea that Jordan would allow Rodney Hood to take more field goals than him in a closeout game is laughable.

As you know I don't need Barkley to make the case but when a bunch of Hall of famers are disgusted with Lebron's effort, it ain't a great look.

Couple things to keep in mind:

1. I hardly view former players as authority figures on anything related to today's players. They're trained to think with a critical eye. If they weren't, they wouldn't be who they are. Whether it's Charles Barkley or Paul Pierce, you're going to have to adjust for some level of generational bias. That doesn't mean their observations don't have merit, but a lot of these guys still think the Warriors are a gimmick and Steph Curry is an invention of the three point line and touch fouls. You really have to take them with a grain of salt. If the Warriors had lost, the narrative would have been "KD's soft, Steph's game doesn't translate to the postseason, and the Warriors only won their last two titles because of injury." You can't lose when you're constantly starting from the idea that yesterday was better than today (and they might be right, but it's still a variable that complicates the discussion). Go check what people were saying about Jordan in the 80's.

2. While I admit that LeBron's performance last night was underwhelming, I do think it's possible to overstate the degree to which he "checked out" or "quit." First, his body language is always bad, and while it's something I've criticized him for frequently, it is something that contributes to making the optics of a blowout loss worse than they should be. Golden State shifted more help towards LeBron in games three and four and caused him to give it up. That, coupled with the hand injury that seemed to affect his shooting, forced him to facilitate more than maybe he would have liked. Perhaps, as I have in the past, you can criticize him for always making "the right basketball play" at the expense of "the right play for our team right now," but that doesn't necessarily equate to giving up. Nobody got on Magic when he limited his shot attempts in big games. He still went for 23-8-7 and got to the line 11 times.

I have to believe you're better than to cite scoring titles and all-defensive teams as evidence that Jordan was better. Yes, Jordan was a great defensive player, and yes, he was a better scorer than LeBron, but this is still a false appeal to authority. All-defensive teams in the NBA back then were a lot like gold gloves and scoring titles are a lot like RBI totals. LeBron's lack of scoring titles are a direct result of his commitment to playing winning, efficient basketball.

And finals record? Please stop. True, if we aren't penalizing him for that record then we shouldn't credit him as much for the consecutive finals trips, but no credible analysis of the two players is ever going to mention the actual records, even in passing. It's really unbelievable how people manage to credit Jordan for playing baseball while slighting LeBron for dragging a hapless team for 100+ games and 40+ minutes every night at the age of 33.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
9,349
Reaction Score
23,552
From 1986-1998, MJ produced 5+ defensive win shares every season but 2: one he only played 17 games, the other he created 4.3. So that's 9 out of 11 seasons, 9 out of 10 full seasons.

James produced fewer defensive win shares this year than Jordan did at 40 with the Wizards....He had 4 seasons producing 5 defensive WS total.

If you average the defensive WS by games played in the Playoffs (LeBron has played 60 more games in the Playoffs than MJ). LeBron averaged 0.066 dWS per game to Jordan's 0.069.

I don't refute any of that, and it's true that LeBron has regressed substantially on defense over the last five years, but I can just as easily find data to support the claim that LeBron is as good or better on that end. LeBron is a 1.9 in Defensive Box +/- for his career while Jordan is at 1.1 (a significant difference when multiplied over a dozen plus years). LeBron's career playoff defensive rating is also better than Jordan's, and his season best in defensive wins shares peaks at a higher number (6.5 for LeBron, 6.2 for MJ).

But what separates them to me is the fact that LeBron can guard all five positions and practically re-invented the game with his versatility. Maybe we only see that apex in spurts these days, but in my mind it's still a clear trump card in LeBron's favor.
 
Joined
Sep 16, 2011
Messages
49,017
Reaction Score
168,922
Couple things to keep in mind:

1. I hardly view former players as authority figures on anything related to today's players. They're trained to think with a critical eye. If they weren't, they wouldn't be who they are. Whether it's Charles Barkley or Paul Pierce, you're going to have to adjust for some level of generational bias. That doesn't mean their observations don't have merit, but a lot of these guys still think the Warriors are a gimmick and Steph Curry is an invention of the three point line and touch fouls. You really have to take them with a grain of salt. If the Warriors had lost, the narrative would have been "KD's soft, Steph's game doesn't translate to the postseason, and the Warriors only won their last two titles because of injury." You can't lose when you're constantly starting from the idea that yesterday was better than today (and they might be right, but it's still a variable that complicates the discussion). Go check what people were saying about Jordan in the 80's.

2. While I admit that LeBron's performance last night was underwhelming, I do think it's possible to overstate the degree to which he "checked out" or "quit." First, his body language is always bad, and while it's something I've criticized him for frequently, it is something that contributes to making the optics of a blowout loss worse than they should be. Golden State shifted more help towards LeBron in games three and four and caused him to give it up. That, coupled with the hand injury that seemed to affect his shooting, forced him to facilitate more than maybe he would have liked. Perhaps, as I have in the past, you can criticize him for always making "the right basketball play" at the expense of "the right play for our team right now," but that doesn't necessarily equate to giving up. Nobody got on Magic when he limited his shot attempts in big games. He still went for 23-8-7 and got to the line 11 times.

I have to believe you're better than to cite scoring titles and all-defensive teams as evidence that Jordan was better. Yes, Jordan was a great defensive player, and yes, he was a better scorer than LeBron, but this is still a false appeal to authority. All-defensive teams in the NBA back then were a lot like gold gloves and scoring titles are a lot like RBI totals. LeBron's lack of scoring titles are a direct result of his commitment to playing winning, efficient basketball.

And finals record? Please stop. True, if we aren't penalizing him for that record then we shouldn't credit him as much for the consecutive finals trips, but no credible analysis of the two players is ever going to mention the actual records, even in passing. It's really unbelievable how people manage to credit Jordan for playing baseball while slighting LeBron for dragging a hapless team for 100+ games and 40+ minutes every night at the age of 33.
So numbers, awards, record, and winning titles doesn't matter in this debate.

I'm sorry but just saying Lebron is better because that's what I think is incredibly weak. It's the argument of a child.
 

Online statistics

Members online
423
Guests online
2,813
Total visitors
3,236

Forum statistics

Threads
157,416
Messages
4,100,319
Members
9,991
Latest member
Kemba123#


Top Bottom