OT: Is KC the new Patriots

[HuskyHawk]

So you would think you would know that Reche Caldwell never won a SB.

Cool story otherwise.

Fine. Show me the big time WR on the 2004 team? Cory Dillon was the main weapon. No pass catcher as good as Kelce on that roster.

I'm not downgrading Mahomes. He's amazing. I'm simply suggesting that what they did this year wasn't all that unusual. It was a team built around defense. The Pats super bowl winning teams had a 1000 yard WR on one occasion.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Chris Jones was huge in that game too he literally took away 2 tds from the Niners plays that dont show up in the box score. Easily the best DT since Aaron Donald.

Also, McDuffie was incredible.

 

[HeGotGame]

Fine. Show me the big time WR on the 2004 team? Cory Dillon was the main weapon. No pass catcher as good as Kelce on that roster.

I'm not downgrading Mahomes. He's amazing. I'm simply suggesting that what they did this year wasn't all that unusual. It was a team built around defense. The Pats super bowl winning teams had a 1000 yard WR on one occasion.

You asked me if I knew Caldwell, and he was the guy you chose out of anyone to prove a point, yet you didn't even know he never won a SB.

You can do your own homework on 2004, you're gonna be really surprised by who won the SB MVP that year.

But keep trying to move the goalposts with each posts, it's pretty funny.

 

[Deepster]

And just how good was the AFC West this year? It was awful. Chiefs are my #2 team, I watch most of their games. Chiefs had the same record as Miami, Cleveland and Buffalo, while playing in the only AFC division with just one winning team. Sound familiar?

So did the Pats crap the bed all those years like you say the Chiefs just did then?

 

[Devland]

Andy Reid will never win father of the year.

 

[superjohn]

Multiple people shot at the Chiefs parade.

 

[Husky25]

As a Pats fan I can now say I understand how/why everyone hated them so much if it was half as bad as the lovefest for Mahomes and the Chiefs. I'm already sick of their act (obviously Taylor Swift didn't help it) and they are only halfway there compared to what the Pats did. When it's your team you don't see it, but when it's not........YUCK

Congrats to the Chiefs, who have accomplished 40% of the Patriots did, but it's way too early to call them the New Patriots. For starters, Belichick was in his early 50s after the Patriots won the tail end of their back-to-back Championships. Reid is 65. Is he going to be coaching at near 80 years old? How much of an adjustment will Mahomes be forced to make when he does retire?

Among the reasons for the comparative lovefest for Mahomes is because he "creates" and is exciting to watch, while Brady was thought of as a "system QB" for much of his career. This, of course, is a copout. At the end of the day, all QBs (including Mahomes) are "system QBs." That said, the first skill to often erode is athleticism. Whether he is able to adjust or not, does Mahomes play at this high of level into his late 30s let alone mid 40s?

Brady was a pocket passer, but could scramble as needed. He had exemptional awareness, footwork, and was quick in the pocket. Brady also played the first 1/4 quarter of his career under vastly different interpretations, let alone enforcement, of the rules, where emphasis on player safety was not nearly what it currently is. Mahomes is playing 7 v 7 flag football by comparison and still often unnecessarily breaks containment too early.

Brady also took less pay for the betterment of the team. His cap hit was never more 13.6%. Mahomes is nearly double, which means KC will probably have to play cap games for the remainder of Mahomes' career in order to surround him with workable pieces.

Most importantly, Mahomes was picked #10 overall. Brady was #199 and came out of comparatively nowhere. Pundits and haters don't like to admit they were, let alone actually be proven, wrong. So of course they are going to jump on the next new shiny model as soon as they can.

 

[superjohn]

Congrats to the Chiefs, who have accomplished 40% of the Patriots did, but it's way too early to call them the New Patriots. For starters, Belichick was in his early 50s after the Patriots won the tail end of their back-to-back Championships. Reid is 65. Is he going to be coaching at near 80 years old? How much of an adjustment will Mahomes be forced to make when he does retire?

Among the reasons for the comparative lovefest for Mahomes is because he "creates" and is exciting to watch, while Brady was thought of as a "system QB" for much of his career. This, of course, is a copout. At the end of the day, all QBs (including Mahomes) are "system QBs." That said, the first skill to often erode is athleticism. Whether he is able to adjust or not, does Mahomes play at this high of level into his late 30s let alone mid 40s?

Brady was a pocket passer, but could scramble as needed. He had exemptional awareness, footwork, and was quick in the pocket. Brady also played the first 1/4 quarter of his career under vastly different enforcement, let alone interpretations, of the rules, where emphasis on player safety was not nearly what it currently is. Mahomes is playing 7 v 7 flag football by comparison and still often unnecessarily breaks containment too early.

Brady also took less pay for the betterment of the team. His cap hit was never more 13.6%. Mahomes is nearly double, which means KC will probably have to play Cap games for the remainder of Mahomes' career in order to surround him with workable pieces.

Most importantly, Mahomes was picked #10 overall. Brady was #199 and came out of comparatively nowhere. Pundits and haters don't like to admit they were, let alone actually be proven, wrong. So of course they are going to jump on the next new shiny model as soon as they can.

Chiefs have accomplished 50% of what the Patriots accomplished, Reid isn't retiring any time soon, Mahomes greatness isn't due to his athleticism, and Brady played forever because he was hardly touched. Mahomes can most likely play forever as well if he wants to.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Chiefs have accomplished 50% of what the Patriots accomplished, Reid isn't retiring any time soon, Mahomes greatness isn't due to his athleticism, and Brady played forever because he was hardly touched. Mahomes can most likely play forever as well if he wants to.

50% is generous, division titles aren't close for example, but whatever. Brady played in an era when you could still hit QBs. And when DBs could still defend. He lasted so long because he focused on flexibility, moved well in the pocket and got rid of the ball on time. Mahomes is much more likely to get injured the way he plays. Even without contact, he's way more likely to tear up his knees. He also holds the ball too long trying to make things happen on broken plays (sometimes he does). I think he'll start changing some of that and will probably still be a great player.

There are some similarities, especially with the last two Chiefs teams that had great defenses. The strong QB play, TE play, the solid RB group and offensive and defensive line play are all similar. Reid really changed after Tampa destroyed his team at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. The current Chiefs are built a lot like the prime era Patriots teams, with a greater emphasis on the secondary due to the different era.

 

[superjohn]

50% is generous, division titles aren't close for example, but whatever. Brady played in an era when you could still hit QBs. And when DBs could still defend. He lasted so long because he focused on flexibility, moved well in the pocket and got rid of the ball on time. Mahomes is much more likely to get injured the way he plays. Even without contact, he's way more likely to tear up his knees. He also holds the ball too long trying to make things happen on broken plays (sometimes he does). I think he'll start changing some of that and will probably still be a great player.

There are some similarities, especially with the last two Chiefs teams that had great defenses. The strong QB play, TE play, the solid RB group and offensive and defensive line play are all similar. Reid really changed after Tampa destroyed his team at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. The current Chiefs are built a lot like the prime era Patriots teams, with a greater emphasis on the secondary due to the different era.

Patriots won 6 Superbowls, Chiefs won 3 Superbowls so far. This isn't hard.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Patriots won 6 Superbowls, Chiefs won 3 Superbowls so far. This isn't hard.

Super bowls are not the only thing that matters.

 

[superjohn]

Super bowls are not the only thing that matters.

You really sound like a Jayhawks fan.

 

[Husky25]

Chiefs have accomplished 50% of what the Patriots accomplished, Reid isn't retiring any time soon,

Reid has two years left on his contract and turns 68 soon after it is set to expire. He also had to address and fend off rumors of retirement earlier in the week, so to say he isn't retiring anytime soon is totally dependent on one's definition of "soon."

Mahomes greatness isn't due to his athleticism, and Brady played forever because he was hardly touched. Mahomes can most likely play forever as well if he wants to.

Mahomes' athleticism doesn't contribute to his "greatness?" Sure thing.

Brady being hardly touched is a myth. He was hit plenty before Carson Palmer went down in the Playoffs vs Pittsburgh, which sparked the change in emphasis on roughing. As his career went on, the Patriots had a superb OL Coach who could turnout a greater sum from generally average parts. Even during seasons where that wasn't the case, Brady's average release was around or under 2.5 seconds and he knew when to throw the ball away instead of forcing it or scrambling.

Brady was able to play so long because he started taking better care of himself, mixing holistic and naturopathic lifestyle concepts (i.e. TB12) with his conventional training in the mid aughts.

I don't have much doubt that Mahomes should be able to play out his contract (age 36 season). I'm not sure if he'll be at the same level as he is now, but it's possible.

 

[superjohn]

Reid has two years left on his contract and turns 68 soon after it is set to expire. He also had to address and fend off rumors of retirement earlier in the week, so to say he isn't retiring anytime soon is totally dependent on one's definition of "soon."


Mahomes' athleticism doesn't contribute to his "greatness?" Sure thing.

Brady being hardly touched is a myth. He was hit plenty before Carson Palmer went down in the Playoffs vs Pittsburgh, which sparked the change in emphasis on roughing. As his career went on, the Patriots had a superb OL Coach who could turnout a greater sum from generally average parts. Even during seasons where that wasn't the case, Brady's average release was around or under 2.5 seconds and he knew when to throw the ball away instead of forcing it or scrambling.

Brady was able to play so long because he started taking better care of himself, mixing holistic and naturopathic lifestyle concepts (i.e. TB12) with his conventional training in the mid aughts.

I don't have much doubt that Mahomes should be able to play out his contract (age 36 season). I'm not sure if he'll be at the same level as he is now, but it's possible.

He had to "fend off rumors of retirement earlier in the week." Yep, that means he's close to retirement. Lolz

Mahomes fastest recorded 40 is 4.8. The things that make him great are what made Brady great. He just happens to be able to do some things Brady couldn't do.

Please stop with the TB12 nonsense, it's embarrassing.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You really sound like a Jayhawks fan.

It's the way I feel about every sport. Making the playoffs consistently matters a lot as a fan. Winning it all is nice, but I enjoy the regular season rooting for a winning team. Feel the same whether it is college basketball, college football, NFL, NBA, NHL, MLS. Being a consistent winner and almost never missing the playoffs is harder than winning titles and then going into the toilet.

This has been a fantastic season for UConn even if we lose in the elite 8 (I'd be surprised if we lost earlier than that).

 

[Husky25]

He had to "fend off rumors of retirement earlier in the week." Yep, that means he's close to retirement. Lolz

Mahomes fastest recorded 40 is 4.8. The things that make him great are what made Brady great. He just happens to be able to do some things Brady couldn't do.

Please stop with the TB12 nonsense, it's embarrassing.

Straight ahead speed is a component, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it THE lead indication of athleticism.

I don't think you should feel embarrassed about by muscle pliability, hydration, sleep, diet, or anything else that may allow a world class athlete to perform at such a high level well into their 40s. I know I don't.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Straight ahead speed is a component, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it THE lead indication of athleticism.

I don't think you should feel embarrassed about by muscle pliability, hydration, sleep, diet, or anything else that may allow a world class athlete to perform at such a high level well into their 40s. I know I don't.

Some of the TB12 crap is snake oil. But the pliability and flexibility stuff is not, certainly not for a 40 year guy getting hit by big young men and expecting to get back up again. Brady was a bit extreme (tomatoes cause inflation so no tomatoes during the season), but it's hard to argue with the results.

 

[superjohn]

Straight ahead speed is a component, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it THE lead indication of athleticism.

I don't think you should feel embarrassed about by muscle pliability, hydration, sleep, diet, or anything else that may allow a world class athlete to perform at such a high level well into their 40s. I know I don't.

He's an amazing player with incredible longevity but the TB12 stuff and his personal guru/trainer stuff is snake oil scam stuff. He should be above that nonsense and the FTX nonsense.

Mahomes is so great for many of the same reasons Brady was so great. They're both incredibly smart on the field, incredibly competitive, and they have that thing where they get better when the game is on the line late. Mahomes is incredibly crafty and probably could've been a MLB pitcher but the throwing at all the different angles, switching hands, and picking up yards with his feet is more skill and incredible improvisation than straight up athleticism IMO. Half the QB's in the league are faster, stronger, and can jump higher than him.

 

[Scoe]

UConn’s own John Dorsey knew. Not using hindsight my reaction, on draft day was that Watson was the best qb of that draft and Trubisky over Mahomes was a bit of a head scratcher.

 

[HuskyHawk]

He's an amazing player with incredible longevity but the TB12 stuff and his personal guru/trainer stuff is snake oil scam stuff. He should be above that nonsense and the FTX nonsense.

Mahomes is so great for many of the same reasons Brady was so great. They're both incredibly smart on the field, incredibly competitive, and they have that thing where they get better when the game is on the line late. Mahomes is incredibly crafty and probably could've been a MLB pitcher but the throwing at all the different angles, switching hands, and picking up yards with his feet is more skill and incredible improvisation than straight up athleticism IMO. Half the QB's in the league are faster, stronger, and can jump higher than him.

I agree on Mahomes. He that special something. Montana had it too. Pat has the same 40 time as Mac Jones (who isn't as slow as people think). Brady's 40 time was glacial.

I can't find the video, but last week Brady was talking with Steve Young about QB play and all these athletic plays after the snap. He essentially said that's not good QB play. Those QBs should have seen that the play that was called was wrong given the defense and changed the play. Instead they run the play, everyone is covered and they pull something off with a scramble and throw. You can probably find it with a search.

It was fascinating for me, because I think he's partly right and partly wrong. Obviously, I know way less than him. Brady and Manning were unmatched at pre-snap recognition and adjustment. They were so good at it, that defenses adjusted. Initially it was things like dropping DEs into coverage and sending ILBs to rush. But in the last 5-6 years defense has, like basketball, gone more positionless. These fast 225-235 pound hybrid safety/LBs (Pats alone have 4 such guys) make it much, much harder to make accurate pre-snap reads and adjustments. The D can disguise things much more effectively. So we we've seen the rise of QBs who can adjust to the defense after the snap, and that requires (a) greater mobility to buy time (b) accuracy off platform and (c) arm strength. The arm strength isn't so much for deep throws, as those likely need to be on platform anyway, but for those cross body cross the field throws. Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Hurts, are all examples. Even Purdy is pretty decent at it. There is still a role for what Tom talked about, no doubt, but I think it takes more than that now.

 

[Husky25]

Some of the TB12 crap is snake oil. But the pliability and flexibility stuff is not, certainly not for a 40 year guy getting hit by big young men and expecting to get back up again. Brady was a bit extreme (tomatoes cause inflation so no tomatoes during the season), but it's hard to argue with the results.

From what I've read, Brady took diet to an extreme, but he was also still a world class athlete at 45 years old (as you say: "Results"). There is no reason for John Q. Football Fan to take dietary restriction that far unless there is some sort of a food sensitivity. The overall holistic approach and physical aspects, on the other hand, have been around and recommended for decades.

He's an amazing player with incredible longevity but the TB12 stuff and his personal guru/trainer stuff is snake oil scam stuff. He should be above that nonsense and the FTX nonsense.

I'm not sure I agree that Brady should be above what kept him at the top of his physical game through his mid 40s, and you shouldn't really be embarrassed by it either...unless you were duped into $200 avocado ice cream or whatever.

FTX is a separate issue, and other than the guy going to jail for fraud, I don't know much about it, but I don't think it was directly associated with TB12. Obvously it was a business venture that went south real quick.