I have a feeling Saniya will end up starting over MoJeff. | Page 4 | The Boneyard

I have a feeling Saniya will end up starting over MoJeff.

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Icebear

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Jump shot, set shot, dictionary definitions, coaching videos. What a bunch of pompous blowhards. I couldn't care if she started the shot at her iliac crest. Does it go in? YES!!!!! BOOM!!!!!! That is all that matters.
Don't like it don't read it but there are things to learn and understand in these things and in trying to learn the correct language for explaining them. Ultimately, you are absolutely correct that what counts is the ball going in. I played ball with a friend who was cross-eye dominant. He was right handed and shot with the ball all the way over on the left side of his head by his left ear. He was, however, a tremendous spot up shooter.
 

doggydaddy

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I watched a lot of Saniyas games in high school. Her release is a little below the shoulder but it is lightning quick. I can count on one hand the number of times someone impeded her 3 point shot. Her transition from dribble to shot or pass to shot is remarkably quick and fluid. Just watch her shooting motion against Stanford. There are a bunch of YouTube videos of Saniya killing teams from 3 over and over even thou they knew how good a shooter she was. NCAA be warned.
Her release STARTS at the shoulder. But the ball doesn't leave her fingertips until just before her arm is fully extended.
 
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No. Chong releases the ball with movement from her chin and collar bone to a point out in front of her face and on trajectory. It is never over her head but is released higher than her head. And as I said uses a different bio mechanics working from different muscle groups.

There is a section of the Stanford game starting at about 12:25 on the game clock where first Stef and then Saniya take shots and the difference between the shots overhead from the brow vs below the chin can be seen ending at about 11:45 on the game clock. It is easy to recognize the different muscle groups used in each shot.

Stef's classic jump shot and release is 15+" higher than her head and swings forward at the elbow forward at release. When saying overhead I mean over her head I do not mean just higher than her head but literally over it and above her head having started at her forehead while in contrast Saniya starts at and slightly below her chin extending forward and up to a point forward and about even to the top of her head or 4-6" higher than her head (but significantly forward) depending on the moment of release which is between frames. It is more push than swing. The ball is never directly over her head. The best view of Saniya's ball position and movement is at 12:50-12:44 on the game clock where she is completely broadside to the camera angle. Clearly, Saniya never has the ball "over" top of her head like Stef, Kaleena, Maya, Diana, Caroline, etc. and the motion moves forward on trajectory to the basket with a push.
Ice right now froze her shot feet well off the floor, release point way over her head. If you catch the ball at your waist and immediately start to shoot, naturally it starts lower.Jump shot jump shot jump shot and a smooth one at that
 

caramel

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Jefferson is Geno's choice,not only because she is more familiar with the system,but because Geno has confidence in her at point.Chong is more of a spark coming off the bench,and I would be totally surprised if Geno let a freshman start and run the offense,no matter how good she is.Chong will get her minutes and will improve every game,but Moriah is the point guard,with Hartley running the show when Moriah is sitting.The keys to winning the games now are:
1.keeping the fouls down
2.Stewart shrugging off a bad game for her
3.no more injuries(crossed fingers)
4.not starting the game trying to drain a lot of threes
5. defense and rebounding
6. and lastly,hoping Kiah has turned the corner and becomes a major contributor,as she was against Stanford
 

doggydaddy

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Ice right now froze her shot feet well off the floor, release point way over her head. If you catch the ball at your waist and immediately start to shoot, naturally it starts lower.Jump shot jump shot jump shot and a smooth one at that
I really don't want to start this again, but you are seeing what I saw.
 
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Saniya is seemingly the better shooter. No, Saniya is definitely the better shooter and the better passer. In two games she has already played better and has fit into the flow of the team and game better than MoJeff did all last year. Saniya will without question be the better player.
 

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And that's the news - thank you for watching, and don't forget to tune into our late night broadcast for the latest on UConn Huskies travels to OZ.

Good night, and good news...


BaZinga!
 

Icebear

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Thank you for being patient in this but it has helped me to think things through in detail. Some of this may be helpful in articulating to others what we mean when we say a term like jump shot. Language only works when meanings are functioning in common usage.

In theology we often differentiate between things, such as, Catholic and catholic, Law and law, Word and word identifying them by the initial Capital or small letter. It helps to provide clarity between the special and the general or formal and informal. This can be a great help in the discussion of a jump shot. I was speaking of the specific "Jump Shot" while DD was using the term in its general sense, jump shot. DD and I were using terms in different ways and I was not clear in my use of other terms, as well.

When I say overhead I am speaking of the position from where the shot is initiated. The higher the initiation point, the higher the release point. Ex. Stef's release point is a good 15" above her head because she initiates over her head at her forehead and extends from there. The shot is executed pivoting around the elbow and extending from there to a very high release point. You see the same thing with Maya. That is a properly executed "Jump Shot," capital J. The muscles used in executing that shot are the triceps and extensor digiti plus legs. The use of the legs in a "Jump Shot," actually, provides little launch energy to the shot since it is released at the apex when all of that energy has been expended lifting the body which has now decelerated to zero vertical energy into the shot. Horizontal energy can vary depending if the shooter is moving forward, backward, or is static in a horizontal plane relating along the line to the rim.

In Saniya's shot, yes, she hops as she shoots using her legs but her shot is a push and extension from the chin area. Using that hop to define a "Jump Shot" is meaningless since by that definition a lay up would, also, be a jump shot. No one would refer to a lay up as a jump shot. Among the other basketball related sites I go to a "Jump Shot" (my capitalization for clarity) is defined as a shot from the apex of a jump with the ball shot from overhead. Clearly, what is implied is that a "Jump Shot" is intended to execute the shot from the very highest point possible and therefore minimally blockable position. Saniya's shot simply is not executed in such a manner and should not be called a capitalized "Jump Shot." Furthermore, that shot uses different muscles and some of the same muscles in a very different manner to push the shot rather than flipping it as it rolls off the end of a lever. Think of putting a shot put vs slinging the ball off of a Jai alai cesta. The fewer the moving parts the easier it is to build a repeatable shot. This is exactly as in the foul shooting form discussion of the past years.

None of that in any way means Saniya is not a good shot. I believe she is an excellent shot. It does have practical implications, however, for where she can likely spot up to shoot the shot and how quickly she must execute it. Heck, I was the one who started the post game thread because I thought her contribution was huge to righting the UCONN ship on Monday. She is a real keeper and it looks now like we will need her to step up sooner than later.

Why is any of this important? It is important because using proper form the "Jump Shot" becomes the basis for numerous shots that cannot be taken easily from Saniya's 3pt form. These shots include the step back, the fade away, and the pull up and even the foul shot with or without jumping is the same. All are based on the classic "Jump Shot." This is not to say Saniya cannot execute those shots as she, clearly, does using the traditional "Jump Shot" form when in closer range.


End note: Even a full, traditional "set shot" ends with a release point higher than the head? If not the ball cannot, generally, be launched on a trajectory high enough to go above the rim. It is not the release point that defines what is meant by overhead. That term defines the initiation point, the position of the ball at the forehead from where the shot is executed.


Terms as used by me:
Initiation point - original position of the ball prior to moving directly towards release in the stroke
Release point - point at which the ball departs from the shooters hand and all control ends
Jump Shot - term used to identify a shot released from the apex of a jump and released as high above the body as possible initiating at or above the forehead
Set shot - a shot released while feet are flat on the with one or two hands and initiated from the chest to the chin
 
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doggydaddy

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.


Terms:
Initiation point - original position of the ball prior to moving directly towards release
Release point - point at which the ball departs from the shooters hand and all control ends
Jump Shot - term used to identify a shot released from the apex of a jump and released as high above the body as possible initiating at or above the forehead
Set shot - a shot released while feet are flat on the with one or two hands and initiated from the chest to the chin

No offense, but these are your definitions and not commonly used when a jump shot is defined. I have no idea why you believe you can just capitalize the word and it makes it a different meaning.

Yes, her initiation point is at her shoulder and not her face. As are the majority of women jump shooters in college. I showed you Maggie Lucas and she does the same thing.

In fact, KML starts her jumper from her hip.



Watch her jumper starting at the 2:10 mark.

Maya Moore catches this pass at her face, and brings the ball down to her waist to start initiating her shot. FROM HER WAIST.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVcE69RLKwU

Watch her jumper from the 49 second mark.

Chong, using your definitions does the following:

Initiation point - from the shoulder on the catch.
Release point - Over her head
Jump Shot - She releases the shot from the apex of a jump and released as high above the body as possible. initiating at or above the forehead? very few women do this.
Set shot - Chong does not release her shot from the chin.

PLease watch the videos I linked and tell me where the initiation point of their jumpers are.

"When I say overhead I am speaking of the position from where the shot is initiated. The higher the initiation point, the higher the release point."

That's not Moore or KML.
 

Icebear

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Do whatever you want. I was simply explaining and defining my usages. I was not suggesting anyone use mine or yours. I was clarifying how we were different and why I made the choices I did.

As regards Maya or KML, taking the ball to the waist was something she did and didn't do, however, initiating the final strokefrom her fore brow was almost involuntary SOP. Nothing matters in the shooting stroke except consistency from initiation point to release point. Her shot was not initiated from her waist. If you want call it her shooting stroke fine. Her shooting stroke proceeded from fore brow to to release point that is the critical part affecting the line and trajectory.
 
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doggydaddy

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Do whatever you want. I was simply explaining and defining my usages. I was not suggesting anyone use mine or yours. I was clarifying how we were different and why I made the choices I did.

As regards Maya, takin the ball to her waist was something she did and didn't do, however, initiating the final it from her fore brow was almost SOP. Nothing matters in the shooting stroke except consistency from initiation point to release point.

I'll let you off the hook. You have been wrong the entire time about it. No comment about the initiation point with KML?

I'm done. You will NEVER admit when you are wrong, even when given video evidence. So, have the last word.
 

Icebear

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I'll let you off the hook. You have been wrong the entire time about it. No comment about the initiation point with KML?

I'm done. You will NEVER admit when you are wrong, even when given video evidence. So, have the last word.
It isn't about being right or wrong it is about finding a way to express the ideas involved with clarity.

The video evidence is what it is and there is nothing in it that changes what I am saying about the shot. Everything I have said is what I see in the video. We are talking about different aspects of the shot.

Why is a lay up not a jump shot under your definition? After one jumps.
 
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Icebear

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Here is video of Maya teaching the perfect shot, the Jump Shot. This is the moment I am attempting to describe and is the formal use of Jump Shot. Shot from this position over the fore brow and extending straight up and out on trajectory towards the basket. Anything before this moment is variable and unimportant but only from this position and at the apex of the jump is the classic Jump Shot almost unblockable. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tpJs7Msqvs

 
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doggydaddy

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I hate when I say I am done, when I'm not....lol.

Stop the presses, Moore has a perfect jump shot. No, not a capital J (something you made up) but the classic jumper.

She initiates her shot from the hip. You said it has to start at the chin. Now she does bring the ball to her face and then extend her arms had wow....what form.

Chong does not have that classic jump shot. But it's a jump shot. You first called it a set shot, then a hybrid and now, I have no idea what you think she does.

Thanks for the video. I always love watching Moore shoot.
 

msf22b

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A late arrival to this discussion

We can all agree that Moore has a (or close to) classic jumper.
I don't think that the principal element is exactly where the shot starts but that the shooter ultimately raises her arms over her head (from wherever the initiation point), leaps and in the most classic sense leans back as the ball is released.

I think the person credited for inventing and/or popularizing that shot was Paul Arizin of Philadelphia Warriors (1950-62).
Prior to that, the one and two-handed set shot was the preferred stroke, with the one-hander gaining ascendency (Bill Sharmaa's being the classic example of former and Bobby Wanzer, the latter).

I patterned my shot after Sharman, still take a hundred or so on a good day and even though he (and I) hopped a bit in the air during the release, this is not a true jump shot (which I added to my vocabulary but has sadly become extinct as have I).

For pure definitions, Saniya's shot as well as Tiff's seem more related to the set shot tradition rather than that of the jump shot.

Part of the problem is the negative connotation in the concept of the set shot being un-athletic or obsolete.

But of course, what I love about the woman's game (especially as Geno teaches it) is its resemblance to pro basketball of the 50's and 60's.
 

Geno-ista

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It's got to be extremely scary for opposing teams to hear Geno say our likely SG for next year reminds him of Sue Bird in regard to her ability to get the ball to the right place (which only she sees) at the right time in an inexplicable manner.

And, it's incredibly unlikely that Geno starts a freshman point guard. I believe it'd be unprecedented in non-injury scenarios.
Bria Hartley started as point guard I think! But I don't think we had other viable options that year. It was out of necessity. Or was she the 2 guard?
 

Ozzie Nelson

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A late arrival to this discussion

We can all agree that Moore has a (or close to) classic jumper.
I don't think that the principal element is exactly where the shot starts but that the shooter ultimately raises her arms over her head (from wherever the initiation point), leaps and in the most classic sense leans back as the ball is released.

I think the person credited for inventing and/or popularizing that shot was Paul Arizin of Philadelphia Warriors (1950-62).
Prior to that, the one and two-handed set shot was the preferred stroke, with the one-hander gaining ascendency (Bill Sharmaa's being the classic example of former and Bobby Wanzer, the latter).

I patterned my shot after Sharman, still take a hundred or so on a good day and even though he (and I) hopped a bit in the air during the release, this is not a true jump shot (which I added to my vocabulary but has sadly become extinct as have I).

For pure definitions, Saniya's shot as well as Tiff's seem more related to the set shot tradition rather than that of the jump shot.

Part of the problem is the negative connotation in the concept of the set shot being un-athletic or obsolete.

But of course, what I love about the woman's game (especially as Geno teaches it) is its resemblance to pro basketball of the 50's and 60's.

History of The Jump Shot...courtesy of Google...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_shot_(basketball)
 

meyers7

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Yea, Ice is closer to correct on this one. Sorry DD. Just the way it is on this one. Chong's is not a classic jump shot. But then not a lot of girls shoot classic jumpshots, many just don't have the strength. Chong's isn't exactly a set shot either (circa 1950/60's). More of what I always called a "push shot" when I was coaching girls (daughter's team).

But then I wouldn't worry about it. If she can get it off and it goes in....good enough. It may change some as she gains strength throughout her college career. We'll have to see.
 

meyers7

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Bria Hartley started as point guard I think! But I don't think we had other viable options that year. It was out of necessity. Or was she the 2 guard?
She's always been pretty much a 2. Kinda of a combo, but I think more comfortable as a 2. Although in Geno's offense, it does not matter that much.

On the other hand Bird was a 2 coming out of HS, but switched over to become arguably the best 1 in the world. If you're good, you're good. And can do many things.
 
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Hate to get into this so late, but you do not move your feet with a set shot, like most foul shots. If your feet leave the ground, it is a jump shot, classic or not, regardless of where the ball is started from. Let's close this thread! LOL!
 

doggydaddy

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Yea, Ice is closer to correct on this one. Sorry DD. Just the way it is on this one. Chong's is not a classic jump shot. But then not a lot of girls shoot classic jumpshots, many just don't have the strength. Chong's isn't exactly a set shot either (circa 1950/60's). More of what I always called a "push shot" when I was coaching girls (daughter's team).

But then I wouldn't worry about it. If she can get it off and it goes in....good enough. It may change some as she gains strength throughout her college career. We'll have to see.
I don't know how I am wrong.

All I said from the beginning is that Chong's shot is a jump shot. And that most women shoot it like that. Including Maggie Lucas.

I have also said that Chong does not shoot a classic jump shot, but she jumps when she shoots it, where or not she pushes it towards the basket or not.

That's it. It morphed into this crazy thread because Icebear said it wasn't a jump shot but a set shot. He changed it from that to a hybrid, whatever that is.

Are you saying you agree it's not a jump shot for Chong and Lucas?
 
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