ESPN's Outside the Lines: Is Being Too Good Bad for the Game?

[baggerbob]

This has been Frese's shtick for a long, long time. UConn/Geno sticks in her craw and it shows a little too much. She's had great talent, but she can't get over the hump. Hey Brenda, you're driving the bus. Drive it harder and maybe your team won't slow down in the second half.

When you get beat on your home floor by a 7 seed, you really shouldn't open your mouth, you should be figuring out why you lost.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

But just look at the coaching they are getting. 95% of high school AAs arrive at their university as bench warmers - they just aren't that good as college level players. They have individual skills, but they generally know nothing about defense, and nothing about how to play with more talented teammates. Lou and Napheesa after a month of boot camp with the best coaching staff in America looked OK in the first month, but they weren't playing basketball to Uconn's standards. After two months of getting some minutes and a lot of coaching and practice, they are starting to look pretty good and you can get glimpses of what they can bring next year. And they are playing with three AAs and an International star player. Put them on a team with 5 other untouched upper classmen running crap offense and defense with lots of one on one play and very little teamwork and you would be asking the same thing - were they really ranked #1 and #6 in the country!!!
Everyone wanted Russell out of HS and TN won the lottery - two years later, everyone is asking was this player really #1 in HS. She was legitimate, she just has had two years of really bad coaching and is playing about the same HS level game she played when she arrived. Give her Tara, or Muffett, or Kim, or Rueck and I bet she is an AA this year (maybe second or third team.) Put her in that dysfunctional offense with those teammates and that coaching staff ... maybe she will get drafted because she is tall.

It will be interesting to see. Yes, she may get drafted, but the WNBA has too short a season and bench to carry projects.

 

[baggerbob]

You could make a case that the 2012 recruiting class of Stewie, Moriah, and Morgan was the greatest in history.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I think the best response and someone mentioned this already is to count the AA recruits on the three other FF teams and compare them to all the teams they beat, and all the teams that didn't make it to a FF in a region other than Bridgeport. Should have been easy for a bunch of these schools to make the FF if recruiting was the answer.
OSU - zero AAs I believe
Washington - Plum I think is the lone one
Syracuse - Sykes and Butler

I mean TN has more than the three teams combined.

Somebody needs to send the complainers a copy of movie "Miracle" about the US hockey victory in the 1980 Winter Olympics. Head Coach Herb Brooks shows Assistant Coach Craig Patrick his proposed roster.

Coach Patrick: You're missing some of the best players.
Coach Brooks: I'm not looking for the best players, Craig, I'm looking for the right ones.

UConn will remain safe on its perch so long as other coaches place a premium on the "best" players and discount the "right" ones. Geno knows the difference and recruits accordingly.

 

[Carnac]

What difference does it make to Brenda how good UConn is if she can't beat Washington?

That's what I've been saying for years. Don't worry about UConn if you're not ranked, or you're not a top five team. Worry about beating the teams between UConn and you,. When you move up to #2 or #3 in the country, THEN worry about beating UConn. Beat and over take the team that's ranked in front of you first. That was an excellent observation Jeff.

 

[BobbyJ]

But just look at the coaching they are getting. 95% of high school AAs arrive at their university as bench warmers - they just aren't that good as college level players. They have individual skills, but they generally know nothing about defense, and nothing about how to play with more talented teammates. Lou and Napheesa after a month of boot camp with the best coaching staff in America looked OK in the first month, but they weren't playing basketball to Uconn's standards. After two months of getting some minutes and a lot of coaching and practice, they are starting to look pretty good and you can get glimpses of what they can bring next year. And they are playing with three AAs and an International star player. Put them on a team with 5 other untouched upper classmen running crap offense and defense with lots of one on one play and very little teamwork and you would be asking the same thing - were they really ranked #1 and #6 in the country!!!
Everyone wanted Russell out of HS and TN won the lottery - two years later, everyone is asking was this player really #1 in HS. She was legitimate, she just has had two years of really bad coaching and is playing about the same HS level game she played when she arrived. Give her Tara, or Muffett, or Kim, or Rueck and I bet she is an AA this year (maybe second or third team.) Put her in that dysfunctional offense with those teammates and that coaching staff ... maybe she will get drafted because she is tall.

I agree with all of this. That's my point also, that they're not getting real coaching at the college level. And I also put some of it on the kids. They have to want to improve in the summer. They know they're lousy shooters when they're throwing knuckleballs up there. Go out and find a good shooting coach to work with them a couple days a week if the school doesn't have one. A lot of the college assistants weren't good fundamental players themselves so the kids are spinning their wheels during the season. Some of the head coaches are hiring cronies and ex-teammates for assistants instead of skills teachers. A good head coach doesn't need 4 assistants screaming strategy at them every timeout, they need player improvement in practice.

 

[Carnac]

Talk about a tempest in a teapot. Brenda has had chances to measure up; she didn't get her team to earn a win against UConn.

True, ...but I will give her credit for playing UConn when others (Syracuse) would not. I respect the Kevin McGuffs, the Tara Vanderveer's, the Muffet McGraws', the Doug Brunos and the Dawn Staleys.
They know when they scheduled UConn, that there was a real good possibility that they would lose that game. Some teams will schedule UConn, but only if UConn come to them.

 

[Carnac]

Oh, but you never got to see my Pee Wee league baseball team.

You're right ET. That's my loss.

 

[Carnac]

I agree with all of this. That's my point also, that they're not getting real coaching at the college level. And I also put some of it on the kids. They have to want to improve in the summer. They know they're lousy shooters when they're throwing knuckleballs up there. Go out and find a good shooting coach to work with them a couple days a week if the school doesn't have one. A lot of the college assistants weren't good fundamental players themselves so the kids are spinning their wheels during the season. Some of the head coaches are hiring cronies and ex-teammates for assistants instead of skills teachers. A good head coach doesn't need 4 assistants screaming strategy at them every timeout, they need player improvement in practice.

Great observation Bobby. You touched on a very sore and personal spot. There's a lot of this going on today in men's and women's CBB, Thanks.

 

[Carnac]

You could make a case that the 2012 recruiting class of Stewie, Moriah, and Morgan was the greatest in history.

You're right. We'll know Tuesday night.

 

[RedStickHusky]

You could make a case that the 2012 recruiting class of Stewie, Moriah, and Morgan was the greatest in history.

As an outgoing class probably the only contender is the Bird, Cash, Jones, Williams 2002 class. I think the real story is the difference in how they rank as a graduating class compared to how they ranked as an incoming class.

 

[GoUconn7961]

If I was one of Brenda's players and I watched that I'd be thinking "what? you don't think I'm a top player? "Why did you recruit me then.?"

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Well, she did get over the hump once.

But I think it left her with a perpetual wedgie.

 

[Siestakeyfan]

I'm glad this attention has been brought to women's college basketball. Let's get get all the the hate, finger pointing and animosity out in the open. Allow me to reiterate some observations and takes that have already been shared by others:

1. When "whiners" get on a roll, they can't stop. Whaaa, whaa, whaa. Some folks can't see the forest for the trees. Is the glass half empty, or half full? Perspective, that's what we're talking about here.
Its easier to blame UConn for all of the other Division 1 WCBB team's failure to raise their program up to UConn's level, than to blame the other programs collectively/individually. Many think its easy to do what UConn has done recently. Nine straight trips to the final four for UConn. Its not easy. Just ask Notre Dame, South Carolina or Maryland (last year's final four teams). NONE of them were able to make it back THIS year, and UConn did not have anything to do with their derailment.

2. Why is UConn expected to apologize for their success? Why has UConn been designated to be the savior of WCBB? Geno said "If you're tired of us winning, beat us". That's simple enough.
I have never seen another sports program/franchise at any level, in any sport, be accused of being "too good" for their sport, and thus be accused a detriment to it. That's ludicrous.

3. Is it getting the best players every year (which is not the case, but that's what UConn is accused of), or is it coaching that makes UConn so good year in, and year out?
NOTE: UConn has not had the #1 recruiting class since 2012. Last year, UCLA had the #1 recruiting class. So what happened to them? If having the best talent is the benchmark for winning championships, why didn't they win it all last year? Maryland has the #1 class for 2016. Will they be the #1 ranked team to begin the season this fall? Will they be picked to win the NC next year?

4. Another poster mentioned a very poignant point today. He said some of these programs need to fire some of these lazy, ineffective coaches that are not improving their programs. They're not good recruiters, nor are good teachers. In addition, many of the colleges and universities need to upgrade their facilities, and allocate more revenue to their women's basketball programs. You can't fund a Pinto, and expect to out run a Corvette. Yes Geno does get good players, but not always. UConn has ONE player in the 2016 ESPN HoopGurlz top 100 recruiting rankings coming in next year.

What people outside of the UConn program don't realize is, that he is a master teacher of the nuances of the game. He teaches them why the game must be played a certain way to become dominate, and successful on a regular basis. He teaches the "how" AND the "why". Geno recruits players that will fit into his program, and will flourish in its operation. Girls that are willing to sacrifice their personal stats and potential individual accolades for the betterment of the team. Girls that will sell out 100% to be part of that program. Girls that want to be molded and shaped into the best possible player they can be.

5. Instead of pointing the finger at UConn, and trying to blame them for their dominance, why not resolve to improve YOUR program to challenge them? UConn set the bar, raise to their level, instead of expecting them to come down to yours. Moriah Jefferson said it best: "its a race, and I'm not slowing down". That sounds just like Mo doesn't it?

6. Its got to be the coaching and the uncompromising standards of the program. The only thing that has been a constant at UConn since 1995 (UConn's first National championship), is Geno and Chris Daley. The players come and go, yet UConn continues to win. Coaches are a vain lot. They hate to admit being out coached. Its bad for their ego, and their reputation. What other explanation is there? NO ONE coaches or runs their practices like Geno. NO ONE!!! He has developed a formula that is successful, and he's stuck with it. His players know that, and buy in to it.

7. It starts every year on the first day of official practice. The goal is set. The goal is to win a national championship. Every team has the same goal you say. The difference is at UConn, they EXPECT to win that year's championship, then go about doing it everyday during the season until its done. At other programs, they hope to win a championship. They hope to be good enough. They hope they can compete. They hope to make the tournament. They hope to get a good seed, and not be in UConn's bracket.

8. I'd like to hear just 1 coach of a major women's basketball program step up and publicly state that he/she does not blame UConn for their success. That they (WCBB as a whole) have not lived up to (or attained) the standards that UConn has set, and that starting RIGHT NOW, they are going to begin to do everything they can to close the gap. Be it recruit better players and become better teachers, or perhaps conduct their practices differently, maybe similar to Geno's. Personally accept the responsibility and the challenge to raise the level of their team's play and execution, starting today.
Not whine and complain like Brenda Frese, suggesting that she would like Geno to dial it back some. After all, its not her fault, its his.

I remind you of the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different outcome. Isn't that what these coaches are doing?

 

[Siestakeyfan]

VERY OUTSTANDING !! Good Job

 

[BRS24]

A wayback article from NHR - Geno's Thoughts on Recruiting

"we tend to recruit a small number of players and the players know we are only recruiting a small number of players."

"What's happened in the AAU world, these kids don't play to win," Auriemma said. "They just play to play."

"Marisa Moseley found that out three days after she got hired at Connecticut," Auriemma said. "She was sitting there next to CD (Dailey) and she goes, ‘That kid right there, we’re not recruiting her, huh?’ and CD goes, ‘Nope.’ She goes ‘How about that kid? We aren’t recruiting her either, huh? Nope.' Then she watches a little more and she goes, ‘That kid right there. We are recruiting her, huh?’ Chris goes, ‘Yeah.’"

LINK

 

[JoePgh]

Somebody needs to send the complainers a copy of movie "Miracle" about the US hockey victory in the 1980 Winter Olympics. Head Coach Herb Brooks shows Assistant Coach Craig Patrick his proposed roster.

Coach Patrick: You're missing some of the best players.
Coach Brooks: I'm not looking for the best players, Craig, I'm looking for the right ones.

UConn will remain safe on its perch so long as other coaches place a premium on the "best" players and discount the "right" ones. Geno knows the difference and recruits accordingly.

And I think you could say that Oregon State is a Herb Brooks team from this perspective. Not the most talented group, but reasonably talented, team-oriented, and hard-nosed competitors. They are players in the tradition of Jamelle Eliot, Jen Rizzotti, Carla Berube, and Mel Thomas -- not to mention (probably) Kyla Irwin and Molly Bent. A team full of players like that, with excellent coaching, can be competitive with a team full of uber-athletes who rely on their athletic gifts for their winning edge.

That is why I don't expect a UConn blowout on Sunday evening. Baylor's roster looks like an all-star team compared to OSU's, but what was the result in that game?

Of course, when a team with players like that is matched up with an opponent that is just as team-oriented, hard-nosed, and well-coached, but also has uber-athletes, the result should be clear -- but still a blowout seems unlikely. (Cf. South Florida)

 

[CocoHusky]

Some years ago Brenda stated words rather pointedly stating essentially: anyone can win with those players he gets. She simply has a great deal of envy and no class - none at all.

Brenda both here and in her past comments is coming off as a bitter, jealous, crab eating hack.
Nov 2013 UCONN without Morgan Tuck and KML went to MD and spanked MD:
Brenda's response: " I have said this all along: they went from nine All-Americans to seven. If they lose a couple more, Geno [Auriemma] might have start coaching like the rest of us."
http://www.umterps.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209309063

 

[Jimbo]

Some people think recruiting high school AAs means more than producing collegiate AAs. I'd love to see some numbers on that question.

I agree, but I'd go still further and suggest that some college coaches don't actually understand the difference. In other words, they think their job in terms of talent development is done once the high school AAs sign their LOIs, that the recruits will automatically morph into college AAs based on their talent alone. Obviously there's a lot more to it than that, and UConn is blessed to have a coach who is not only a great recruiter but a great teacher as well.

It's the latter point that is far too often overlooked. Does UConn typically land its share of the top prospects? Absolutely, but those who say that is the only reason for UConn's success either are being lazy or don't know their history. If it's all about recruiting, there's no way to explain the overlooked recruits who developed into great players while at UConn (Kara Wolters being perhaps the most extreme example), or the fact that, according to the following article from last year, Geno reached his first Final Four without a single Top 100 recruit. At some point, rather than whining incessantly about recruiting, people should tip their caps and realize that Geno is actually a pretty damn good teacher and coach as well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...fb30a8-da0b-11e4-8103-fa84725dbf9d_story.html

 

[sarals24]

Oh, I think people realize it. I think it's just much easier to whine and say he gets all the recruits. Otherwise they would be expected to have the same success with a similar level of talent (ahem, Brenda)

 

[UcMiami]

Brenda both here and in her past comments is coming off as a bitter, jealous, crab eating hack.
Nov 2013 UCONN without Morgan Tuck and KML went to MD and spanked MD:
Brenda's response: " I have said this all along: they went from nine All-Americans to seven. If they lose a couple more, Geno [Auriemma] might have start coaching like the rest of us."
http://www.umterps.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209309063

No Brenda, he will never have to start coaching like you or most of the rest, he is much to good a coach to ever drop so low! He didn't coach that badly when he was starting in Philly, and hasn't since.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Brenda Frese is a snake-oil salesman! She's all the talk is cheap variety.
She has 1 championship which she should thank Jeff Walz every night for winning for her and MD!
And as I posted previously, watch her huddles (not now because she's home crying) and you'll see her 2 top assts 1 lady & 1 guy, coaching their butts off pointing and explaining while Ms. vocal cords shakes her head and agrees!
Each year she has had as many HS AA's as Geno had but he's developed them into WCBB AA's, WNBA All-Stars, World & Olympic Champions! While a couple of her kids have had "nice" careers in the WNBA.
Plebe has it right, if Brenda could coach 1/2 as good as Geno she would have multiple Championships after 2005, with those MD studs coming back for at least 2 more years.
Geno can't stand her but loves to schedule her/MD just to kick their butts all over the court!

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Brenda both here and in her past comments is coming off as a bitter, jealous, crab eating hack.
Nov 2013 UCONN without Morgan Tuck and KML went to MD and spanked MD:
Brenda's response: " I have said this all along: they went from nine All-Americans to seven. If they lose a couple more, Geno [Auriemma] might have start coaching like the rest of us."
http://www.umterps.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209309063

That's the one Coco!

 

[Carnac]

A wayback article from NHR - Geno's Thoughts on Recruiting

"we tend to recruit a small number of players and the players know we are only recruiting a small number of players."

"What's happened in the AAU world, these kids don't play to win," Auriemma said. "They just play to play."

"Marisa Moseley found that out three days after she got hired at Connecticut," Auriemma said. "She was sitting there next to CD (Dailey) and she goes, ‘That kid right there, we’re not recruiting her, huh?’ and CD goes, ‘Nope.’ She goes ‘How about that kid? We aren’t recruiting her either, huh? Nope.' Then she watches a little more and she goes, ‘That kid right there. We are recruiting her, huh?’ Chris goes, ‘Yeah.’"

LINK

Thanks BRS, I had not seen this article before. I now have a little better understanding of the philosophy Geno and his staff employs when they are looking at potential recruits. I wonder how many other coaches use this same check list.

 

[huskeynut]

Well Brenda does her thing again - o poor little old me.

What Brenda and others have yet to realize is that Geno recruits to the team's needs. He doesn't just stockpile AA's. He also recruits the whole person, not just their playing skills. Geno recruits kids who are going to work the butts off to be the best they can be. Then he takes the time and energy to coach/ teach the whole person, not just the player.

Then you learn to play defense - in your face defense! Brenda has never taught defense that I can remember.

Geno also looks for players who pass the ball and want to learn to to pass the ball better. And the list of to do's goes on and on.