Breanna Stewart is indeed the greatest of all time

[UcMiami]

Sure but instead of those games why can't we look at others as the comparison?

First off- Maya's senior year vs ND she was spectacular. UCONN would have won if you subsitituted Maya's great game if she had the teammates the frosh Stewie (12-13) had in 12-13.

Secondly, in this same line of comparing years, Stewie for example had good support from KML in 12-13 and pretty good support from Farris and Dolson. Give Stewie the support that Maya had in her senior year last game vs ND, imo Stewie isn't winning that game either. SO here we have a clear example that if you give Maya Stewie's teammates she wins too.

And the other loss for Maya in NCAA's- Maya's frosh year is similar to Stewie's jr year. Stewie only took 8 shots and wound up with only 8 points. That's not that good. While Maya took 19 shots as a frosh her EFG% was 50%. THAT 50% is the same as Stewie's was year when she was a junior. Give Maya -- MoJeff and KML and the jr Morgan Tuck - imo that is superior to the Big 3 of the young soph Tina, Hot-and-cold-Renee, and anyone else you want to add which Maya played with as a frosh.

MoJeff is HUGE in this case to help support Stewie last year. She should have been Final Four MVP last year. I love Renee but MoJeff is better. Tuck and KML superior to the young Tina and whomever else we add.

I think you always judge great players by how they play in big games and there are no bigger games than the regionals and final fours when looking at uconn teams and players. This particular set of posts got started because I said I don't specifically count championships, but what Breanna did as a freshman for me separated her. She did not have as good a freshman year as Maya had, but in the most important four games of her freshman year she was phenomenal and she was better in those games than either Maya or DT. DT had the worst game of her career in the FF her freshman year, Maya had a very good game in the FF but she was not efficient shooting and her team lost, and Breanna had one of the best games of her career as a freshman in the FF and carried her team to victory. They were all playing on very good #1 seed teams and they all made it to the FF and played very good teams there and Breanna came through as a freshman.
They all had great careers, they were all phenomenal in big games the rest of their careers (Stewart has three games left we hope.) They all played on dominant teams that put together historic winning streaks. There is no wrong answer. For me personally the NCAAs as freshman are the determining factor. And the pivotal moments were the semi-final games. Diana 1-15, 0-11, 4 points in a loss; Maya 8-19, 3-11, 20 points in a loss; Breanna 10-16, 4-5, 29 points in a win. For a lot of other folks, what Diana did her junior and senior year are determining factors that push her ahead of Maya and Breanna. And for others Maya's total game and consistency for four years push her ahead of Diana and Breanna, still others will say three is better than two, and should Breanna win four that will be better than three.

Breanna while struggling much of her freshman year comes close to Maya's career stats, and beyond stats to my eye poses greater issue on both ends of the floor than Maya did - Maya is a phenomenal offensive threat and a very disruptive defender, but because she is taller and longer while having very similar offensive and defensive skills Breanna is just more intimidating - it is much more difficult to shoot over her, and it is much more difficult to make her alter her shot.

 

[UcMiami]

I think that Tina at that time was still a pretty big underachiever (she didn't GET IT until part way through her junior year) and that Houston was totally erratic.

Tina was third team AP AA as a sophomore so I am not sure how much struggle that denotes - she put up better stats in the FF loss than AA Dolson (who had 7 TOs) did in the FF win. I grant you Houston as being erratic but she also played well in the loss. The AAs Montgomery and Hartley both stunk up the joint in those games, but Swanier had one of the better games of her career.

The 2001 team lost two All Americans Shea Ralph and Svetlana Abrosimova. If they stayed healthy, they would have rolled. The 2013 team got lucky in that regard. Subtract Faris and Hartley or Dolson and does that 2013 team win? Probably not.

Yeah but that team also had Sue Bird (Lieberman award winner) Swin Cash, Asjha Jones, and Tamika Williams as juniors, senior Kelly Schumacher, and sophomore Kenitra Johnson (a forgotten but very good guard) That was not a talent deprived team even with the loss of Shea and Sveta, and they preformed really well until the last 20 minutes of their season.

Maya, Diana, Breanna are all great.
I'm outta here!

 

[hoophuskee]

I think you always judge great players by how they play in big games and there are no bigger games than the regionals and final fours when looking at uconn teams and players. This particular set of posts got started because I said I don't specifically count championships, but what Breanna did as a freshman for me separated her. She did not have as good a freshman year as Maya had, but in the most important four games of her freshman year she was phenomenal and she was better in those games than either Maya or DT. DT had the worst game of her career in the FF her freshman year, Maya had a very good game in the FF but she was not efficient shooting and her team lost, and Breanna had one of the best games of her career as a freshman in the FF and carried her team to victory. They were all playing on very good #1 seed teams and they all made it to the FF and played very good teams there and Breanna came through as a freshman.
They all had great careers, they were all phenomenal in big games the rest of their careers (Stewart has three games left we hope.) They all played on dominant teams that put together historic winning streaks. There is no wrong answer. For me personally the NCAAs as freshman are the determining factor. And the pivotal moments were the semi-final games. Diana 1-15, 0-11, 4 points in a loss; Maya 8-19, 3-11, 20 points in a loss; Breanna 10-16, 4-5, 29 points in a win. For a lot of other folks, what Diana did her junior and senior year are determining factors that push her ahead of Maya and Breanna. And for others Maya's total game and consistency for four years push her ahead of Diana and Breanna, still others will say three is better than two, and should Breanna win four that will be better than three.

Breanna while struggling much of her freshman year comes close to Maya's career stats, and beyond stats to my eye poses greater issue on both ends of the floor than Maya did - Maya is a phenomenal offensive threat and a very disruptive defender, but because she is taller and longer while having very similar offensive and defensive skills Breanna is just more intimidating - it is much more difficult to shoot over her, and it is much more difficult to make her alter her shot.

Love these discussions. And I'm on the cusp of doing the unthinkable for me. It's the combination that is unthinkable and it being all in one year. It is JUST three games away and I'm giddy about that!! Super-Giddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!Putting Stewie as GOAT. MoJeff as Greatest PG. And The Great Morgan Tuck around 12 or so greatest Husky (I assume she is getting 1st team a/a?). AND the biggest of all- is to say this team, 15-16, is the greatest wcbb team I have ever seen.

For me though, they need to WIN,---- THIS YEAR for all of the above.

For me these posts got started with waquoit when he said for anyone not proclaiming Stewie as GOAT that is being a disservice to Stewie. I don't agree. She has to WIN. If she didn't she still might for me- if she were amazing and the others weren't good at all. If Stewie is that great and MoJeff is, they should win. No excuse. They're better than the other player AND they are so greats o they not only make each better but they make surrounding players better. You win it- you are GOAT.

For me- I don't neccessarily compare frosh vs frosh - I'll also look at career vs career and judge teammates. OFC it is all subjective and as you say there is no wrong answer. But for me, Maya did the same thing as a frosh in terms of how she played vs what Stewie did as a junior (last year). Both players EFG% were the same. I'm not going to "penalize" Maya for not having the greatest UCONN pg of all-time and the greatest shooter in Husky History that was also a scorer of all-time. Maya didn't have this as a frosh.

And as you said Maya had the better frosh year. That means something to me. Because if a player were to be a problem and the coach primarily benched her a lot then at the end of the year they make up and the player leads team to a title even though their record was "weak" I would never put that over a dominant superlative player who was brilliant all year and just happened to come up short one game while the team had a sensational record. There are more big games other than NCAA's. Recruits also see it. Being GOAT is an entire package.

I wouldn't say Reggie Jackson is a greater player than Ted Williams. Reggie has had a ton more post-season success. Nor would I put Hondo Havlicek ahead of Larry Bird.

 

[NoelAustin]

The 2001 team lost two All Americans Shea Ralph and Svetlana Abrosimova. If they stayed healthy, they would have rolled. The 2013 team got lucky in that regard. Subtract Faris and Hartley or Dolson and does that 2013 team win? Probably not.

You have to take the bad with the good.....With Freshman DT the 2001 team lost a FF semi game they might have won without her....With Freshman Breanna the 2013 team won a FF semi game they might have lost without her.

 

[hoophuskee]

DT lost her freshman year with a very good team, Stewie didn't.

I'm not arguing that. But what happens if Stewie loses in HER SENIOR YEAR (her next 3 games)? You think that is comparable to DT losing her freshman year? UCONN had to beat ND the game before on a buzzer beater by Sue Bird. That final four game as considered near 505-50 who would win. If Baylor were to beat UCONN or anyone else, you think that is the same?

It wouldn't for me. UCONN is an overwhelming favorite to win. If there is this kind of letdown - maybe thye didn't come ready to play. ANd if it came from seniors it would make it even worse.

 

[hoophuskee]

DT lost her freshman year with a very good team, Stewie didn't.

You have to take the bad with the good.....With Freshman DT the 2001 team lost a FF semi game they might have won without her....With Freshman Breanna the 2013 team won a FF semi game they might have lost without her.

And to take that next step- suppose Stewie were to lose her senior year and we know DT didn't? Then you'd compare which loss was worse, right?

 

[Wally East]

The 2001 team lost two All Americans Shea Ralph and Svetlana Abrosimova. If they stayed healthy, they would have rolled. The 2013 team got lucky in that regard. Subtract Faris and Hartley or Dolson and does that 2013 team win? Probably not.

So, when they lost, badly, at full-strength?

 

[LadyVols9]

in my honest opinion, I would still take maya or DT over stewie for the "greatest" UCONN player. she may win 4 but I truly believe that Tuck and Jefferson deserved the MVP awards for 2 of the 3 championships. you all know more than me though. just my observation.

 

[Beemer]

in my honest opinion, I would still take maya or DT over stewie for the "greatest" UCONN player. she may win 4 but I truly believe that Tuck and Jefferson deserved the MVP awards for 2 of the 3 championships. you all know more than me though. just my observation.

I believe Stewie said much the same thing about her MVP awards, that she knew Tuck & Jefferson were as deserving of it as she was.

 

[UConnCat]

in my honest opinion, I would still take maya or DT over stewie for the "greatest" UCONN player. she may win 4 but I truly believe that Tuck and Jefferson deserved the MVP awards for 2 of the 3 championships. you all know more than me though. just my observation.

An incorrect observation. Tuck didn't play in the 2014 FF and didn't deserve MOP over Stewart in the 2013 FF. That leaves last year and most agree Moriah deserved the MOP award. So, that's 1 of the 3 awards, not 2.

 

[LadyVols9]

I believe Stewie said much the same thing about her MVP awards, that she knew Tuck & Jefferson were as deserving of it as she was.

true point. I am not even sure how much those awards matter for this discussion anyway. just seems to me that both DT and Maya had that killer instinct. that's why I give them the edge....which is the same reason I give Catchings the edge in LV land. tough as nails

 

[Waquoit]

you all know more than me though.

just seems to me that both DT and Maya had that killer instinct. that's why I give them the edge.

How many times just this year alone has the opponent made a nice play or go on a mini-run only to have Stewie immediately drop a three in their face to break their spirit? (Hint: Often.) That's killer instinct. But because she doesn't follow up her daggers with a look-at-me scowl or exaggerated clapping and arm waves, folks don't think she has a killer instinct. Believe me, she has it as much as any great.

 

[UcMiami]

true point. I am not even sure how much those awards matter for this discussion anyway. just seems to me that both DT and Maya had that killer instinct. that's why I give them the edge....which is the same reason I give Catchings the edge in LV land. tough as nails

An interesting comment, and sort of a general idea that people have that goes to personality and body type. Diana as a combo guard and Maya as a point forward in the Uconn scheme both had more central roles on offense, and people tend to look at offense more than defense. Stewart has always had good guards and a point center (Dolson) or point forward (Tuck) on her teams, so she has been less of the driver of offensive flow than either Maya or Diana. But on defense Stewart has been more central to the Uconn scheme's than either Diana or Maya. She isn't as vocal as either of them were, and her body type doesn't scream power like Maya's does or like Diana does for a guard, but there was an interesting comment during the MsSt game that Stewart is reportedly one of the strongest players on the team - her length just disguises it.

But I have watched stewart on the non NT USA basketball teams, in the HS all star games, and throughout her uconn career, and her killer instinct is fully developed - she sometimes defers to teammates at the start of games, she doesn't demand immediate focus, but when it is time to win, or when her team is struggling she takes over usually on both ends. Breanna after her freshman regular season just hasn't had any close games except for the Stanford loss - it is hard to show what kind of killer instinct you have, when the opponents are generally DOA - but part of that is what happened in the first 1:14 on Saturday - 5 pts and two rebounds, enough to outscore MsSt through the first 10 minutes!

 

[PalPa]

Yes -- "beyond category" but as you say Maya had a better frosh year. In fact in Maya's frosh and sr years, do you think it could be argued if she had what Stewie had - a very good sharp-shooting KML, an upperclassmen in Farris and Dolson that there would have been a better chance Amazing Maya would have had 4 titles under her belt?

Some of Stewie's other games in Final Four's and Finals' weren't as good as for example Amazing Maya's great senior year game vs ND in which UCONN went down. Yet we give Stewie "the nod" for winning 4 titles and being FF MVP but we know at least her jr year that should have been MoJeff. And those 4 titles, is Stewie's teammates performed like Maya's teammates her sr year, the same fate would have probably happened. IMO for example Maya was fine playing center at times her sr year. She just needed help is similar to what Stewie would need.

Stewie had to "get pulled" in her frosh year because some games she was so bad. When did THAT ever happen to Amazing Maya?

So if Stewie "lays an egg" vs Baylor, why should we automatically proclaim she is GOAT over Maya?

I have read a number of posts saying DT or Maya were better because Stewie has a better supporting cast. In my opinion Stewies supporting cast should be an argument in her favor and not against her. I can't imagine the fantastic numbers she would have both offensively and defensively if she was the "go to" player instead of just the best player. How many blocks would she have if MO wasn't cutting off the drivers, how many points if she wasn;t dishing off to MO or Morgan near the rim? I think Stewie is the greatest because of the team she in on.

 

[baggerbob]

A question that was asked of Kelly after the final four. Kelly, how much was Breanna's play maybe also a catalyst for what you guys were able to do after the Big East Tournament, the change that she made or the change in her, and how much did that change you guys?
KELLY FARIS: That changed us a ton. I don't think people understand how much we needed her to get to this point.
If we didn't have her, we wouldn't be here. And we all know that, and I hope she knows that. If she didn't turn it around
and step up like she has--I mean, we have a freshman that's the MVP of the national championship game. And that
doesn't happen anywhere but here. And she deserves it. And kind of, again, I'm glad she's on our side. I wouldn't want
to be playing against her. That was the transcript of the 2013 final four.

 

[hoophuskee]

I have read a number of posts saying DT or Maya were better because Stewie has a better supporting cast. In my opinion Stewies supporting cast should be an argument in her favor and not against her. I can't imagine the fantastic numbers she would have both offensively and defensively if she was the "go to" player instead of just the best player. How many blocks would she have if MO wasn't cutting off the drivers, how many points if she wasn;t dishing off to MO or Morgan near the rim? I think Stewie is the greatest because of the team she in on.

Nah- PalPa you misunderstood. -- Here is one of the posts I made on this thread:

And I'm on the cusp of doing the unthinkable for me. It's the combination that is unthinkable and it being all in one year. It is JUST three games away and I'm giddy about that!! Super-Giddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!Putting Stewie as GOAT. MoJeff as Greatest PG. And The Great Morgan Tuck around 12 or so greatest Husky (I assume she is getting 1st team a/a?). AND the biggest of all- is to say this team, 15-16, is the greatest wcbb team I have ever seen.

For me though, they need to WIN,---- THIS YEAR for all of the above.

Nowhere am I saying who is better when it comes to Stewie vs the other two greats Maya and DT. My posts have been about disputing that RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT ON THIS THREAD the comments made implying/suggesting that it is a foregone conclusion that Stewie is GOAT. No way.

As I've mentioned ANYONE that puts DT ahead of Maya, or right there with Maya but maybe VERY slightly less, then they probably feel STATS DON"T TELL THE WHOLE STORY. --- Because Maya's stats are superior to DT -AND Maya's stats are right there with Stewie's. So for anyone that thinks that much of DT over Maya, then how can they not feel similar with DT vs Stewie when Stewie hasn't even finished her career yet? If Stewie lays an egg, why is it that we hear of DT's egg AS A FRESHMAN, but we would ignore Stewie's egg AS A SENIOR? IMO it is MUCH MUCH WORSE to lay an egg when you're the senior and such an overwhelming favorite player than it is when DT was a frosh. All I have said is I want to see this season is Stewie and the rest of this team close the deal. In summary, if you think DT is right there with Maya- and if Stewie doesn't win and she plays badly her senior year, who are you going to say has the greater "intangibles," DT or Stewie? SO how can it be a foregone conclusion Stewart is GOAT?

And as far as Maya vs Stewie why can't we say if the frosh Maya was part of last year's team UCONN still wins? And more than likely the Jr Stewie doesn't win in Maya's frosh year- not by scoring only 8 points or just having an EFG% of 50%. Because Maya had the same 50%EFG%. And certainly Maya's last game was equivalent to Stewie's frosh game in NCAA's. SO in summary of Maya vs Stewie when we look at stats, Maya has a slight edge overall imo.

You speak of Stewie might be better if you gave her more shots. I prefer efficiency rather than being a gunner. Maya not only averaged slightly more, her EFG% was slightly higher thus she is a more efficient scorer. Plus her assist to turnovers shows she was a more efficient passer. SO why should it be foregone conclusion that Stewie is superior? SHE MIGHT BE. I'm not 100% into stats. But the title of this thread makes it sound like Stewie is GOAT - no doubt. I say hold on buckaroooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let me see what she does the next three games. And for the record, MoJeff is a super super super super player. IMO you should in no way discount what type of impact she has on her teammates including Stewie (and vice-versa). I think you are downplaying someone like MJ way too much. But if UCONN wins -ya more than likely. What I would admire big-time is that "she refused to allow a lesser team take her and her teammates down." I hold value in that.

 

[hoophuskee]

So, when they lost, badly, at full-strength?

Not so relevant. We've seen many times teams lose at full strength or even UONN that year won at 60% starter's strength in one game. teams can overcome their November defeat.

 

[Sonny44]

This is painful to try to pick the best among so many greats-

Agree, just a fun way to waste some time. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Wally East]

Not so relevant. We've seen many times teams lose at full strength or even UONN that year won at 60% starter's strength in one game. teams can overcome their November defeat.

Greatest teams of all time don't lose at full strength. Otherwise, by definition, they're not the greatest team of all time

 

[PalPa]

Nah- PalPa you misunderstood. -- Here is one of the posts I made on this thread:

And I'm on the cusp of doing the unthinkable for me. It's the combination that is unthinkable and it being all in one year. It is JUST three games away and I'm giddy about that!! Super-Giddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!Putting Stewie as GOAT. MoJeff as Greatest PG. And The Great Morgan Tuck around 12 or so greatest Husky (I assume she is getting 1st team a/a?). AND the biggest of all- is to say this team, 15-16, is the greatest wcbb team I have ever seen.

For me though, they need to WIN,---- THIS YEAR for all of the above.

Nowhere am I saying who is better when it comes to Stewie vs the other two greats Maya and DT. My posts have been about disputing that RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT ON THIS THREAD the comments made implying/suggesting that it is a foregone conclusion that Stewie is GOAT. No way.

As I've mentioned ANYONE that puts DT ahead of Maya, or right there with Maya but maybe VERY slightly less, then they probably feel STATS DON"T TELL THE WHOLE STORY. --- Because Maya's stats are superior to DT -AND Maya's stats are right there with Stewie's. So for anyone that thinks that much of DT over Maya, then how can they not feel similar with DT vs Stewie when Stewie hasn't even finished her career yet? If Stewie lays an egg, why is it that we hear of DT's egg AS A FRESHMAN, but we would ignore Stewie's egg AS A SENIOR? IMO it is MUCH MUCH WORSE to lay an egg when you're the senior and such an overwhelming favorite player than it is when DT was a frosh. All I have said is I want to see this season is Stewie and the rest of this team close the deal. In summary, if you think DT is right there with Maya- and if Stewie doesn't win and she plays badly her senior year, who are you going to say has the greater "intangibles," DT or Stewie? SO how can it be a foregone conclusion Stewart is GOAT?

And as far as Maya vs Stewie why can't we say if the frosh Maya was part of last year's team UCONN still wins? And more than likely the Jr Stewie doesn't win in Maya's frosh year- not by scoring only 8 points or just having an EFG% of 50%. Because Maya had the same 50%EFG%. And certainly Maya's last game was equivalent to Stewie's frosh game in NCAA's. SO in summary of Maya vs Stewie when we look at stats, Maya has a slight edge overall imo.

You speak of Stewie might be better if you gave her more shots. I prefer efficiency rather than being a gunner. Maya not only averaged slightly more, her EFG% was slightly higher thus she is a more efficient scorer. Plus her assist to turnovers shows she was a more efficient passer. SO why should it be foregone conclusion that Stewie is superior? SHE MIGHT BE. I'm not 100% into stats. But the title of this thread makes it sound like Stewie is GOAT - no doubt. I say hold on buckaroooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let me see what she does the next three games. And for the record, MoJeff is a super super super super player. IMO you should in no way discount what type of impact she has on her teammates including Stewie (and vice-versa). I think you are downplaying someone like MJ way too much. But if UCONN wins -ya more than likely. What I would admire big-time is that "she refused to allow a lesser team take her and her teammates down." I hold value in that.

You are too sensitive. There were other posters saying the same thing and I did not single out any one. My point was that a players greatness cannot be judged because of their teammates. We will never know how Stewie would have performed on teams that DT or Maya played on , or how DT or Maya would have performed on the team Stewie played on. I think all three are great and there is no clear answer as to who is the greatest, All three are keepers.

 

[hoophuskee]

You are too sensitive. There were other posters saying the same thing and I did not single out any one. My point was that a players greatness cannot be judged because of their teammates. We will never know how Stewie would have performed on teams that DT or Maya played on , or how DT or Maya would have performed on the team Stewie played on. I think all three are great and there is no clear answer as to who is the greatest, All three are keepers.

What do you mean I am too sensitive? I just didn't agree with you with some of your post - that's all. Still don't. I respect your opinion. I hope I wasn't disrespectful? You said that my posts stated that DT or Maya were better. They didn't. They offered a counter that either could be. The thing is - you say you are disagreeing with me in that there is no clear cut answer yet most of the posters I replied to - were the ones that said/implied Stewie was GOAT. Unless I misunderstood any of them? Here is what I said- so I'm not proclaiming Stewie as GOAT yet--unlike this thread is-

All I have said is I want to see this season is Stewie and the rest of this team close the deal

When you say -- We will never know how Stewie would have performed on teams that DT or Maya played on , or how DT or Maya would have performed on the team Stewie played on --

Well I think I generally do know. Because as you say "All three are keepers."

Great players that can pass and shoot make others much better offensively. I see no reason why the college Maya Moore can't be just as great now as she was back in 07-08 thru 10-11. My comments are general - not literal. But KEEPERS as you say -- and Maya IS one-- imo no reason to believe she couldn't be a keeper in this day when she was in college. If she were a keeper - she would WIN. OFC team needs to be structured slightly differently. But that is "literal." You give a college young Maya -- arguably the greatest pg in UCONN history - and are you trying to say I can't make an assumption that they wouldn't be totally awesome? I can't assume her jump shot wouldn't flutter over ND players with a pg like MJ - even though I saw her jump shot flutter through the nets at high efficiency vs ND even in defeat?

If you don't think so- it's okay. We can agree to disagree.