A'ja commitment thread [merged]

[HuskyNan]

But also, those teams were so successful because they had great players (including the best). It's impossible to separate the two.

In the summer before Stef Dolson's freshman year at high school, I interviewed several current and former coaches of hers. One coach, who I will not name but one who has coached several high Div I players, told me Stef was a great person, a hard worker, and would be a player/coach type of person but on the court, she was strictly a role player, not an elite one. This was echoed in various other ways by other people, in other words, it was a near-consensus opinion among people that worked with her (the exception was Stef's high school coach) and this was mirrored in the recruit rankings that had her somewhere in the 30's.

So, either everyone is a dope when it comes to evaluating high school players or the coaching staff at UConn (I see you Chris Daily and Marissa Mosley!) help to develop really good players into great ones.

 

[HuskyPhan]

Amen, sister-that is a fact!!!!!

 

[doggydaddy]

I calculated the percentages for all teams awhile back and it came down to something like 60% of teams with an NPOY have won the championship in the last 20-25 years. Don't remember the exact number, but it was significant.

No surprise. Talent wins. Coaching and talent win championships.

 

[intlzncster]

In the summer before Stef Dolson's freshman year at high school, I interviewed several current and former coaches of hers. One coach, who I will not name but one who has coached several high Div I players, told me Stef was a great person, a hard worker, and would be a player/coach type of person but on the court, she was strictly a role player, not an elite one. This was echoed in various other ways by other people, in other words, it was a near-consensus opinion among people that worked with her (the exception was Stef's high school coach) and this was mirrored in the recruit rankings that had her somewhere in the 30's.

So, either everyone is a dope when it comes to evaluating high school players or the coaching staff at UConn (I see you Chris Daily and Marissa Mosley!) help to develop really good players into great ones.

You are correct. Just in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't talking about high school talent coming out. My comments related to that were about college NPOYs, not high school. I should have specified collegiate though.

It's only about what a player becomes ultimately.

 

[UcMiami]

Regardless of the NPOTY debates, it's pretty clear that UConn brings in some of the - if not THE - best talent in WCBB. Whether or not Stewart was a true NPOTY in 2012-13 doesn't change the fact that UConn averaged the same points and rebounds per gm between that season and this past one. MLK was more of a factor on the 2012-13 team, because of injury this season. But the OVERALL talent of the roster is still high, even if a huge proportion of it doesn't reside in one single player...

UConn has had top 4 nationally ranked recruiting classes in 5 of the last 7 cycles. The exceptions were 2009 and 2013 when they only brought in one prospect each, so they didn't have a big enough class those cycles to rank, but those prospects were highly rated. 5 of the last 7 ranked top 4 nationally, and I say that only because their most recent class was ranked as low as 4th due to Wilson choosing USC which jumped UConn and bumped them out of the top 3. Otherwise it'd be 5 out of 7 in the top 3 nationally. And they are expected to again have a top class for 2015. And only because I couldn't find recruiting class rankings that go back beyond the 2008 class on the internet...

That cannot be denied: UConn repeatedly has brought in the best overall talent of all the WCBB programs. You maintain that kind of reloading of talent into your program, and if you're a decent coaching staff, then you SHOULD contend for national championships regularly, because your program regularly has national championship-caliber talent on it...

Whether it's the Alabama Crimson Tide in CFB with their national #1 classes every year, or the New York Yankees in the 90s who were in the World Series every year, but also had double the payroll other MLB clubs had every year as well. When you have that kind of talent that laps everyone else, you SHOULD win it all, and often. The coaching staff just needs to get out of the way...

By this calculation over the last four years Duke should be king of the hill - their classes were 1,4,7,2 and this coming year 3. TN that perennial FF team - unranked, 1,5,3,6, and Uconn - 3,2,1,unranked,4.
I actually think class ranks are silly and getting a Maya or KML or Stewart is more of a game changing than getting 5 players ranked in the teens. And in the NCAAs most teams are only playing 6 or 7 players so having 4 extra AAs on the bench doesn't really mean much. And a Dolson ranked in the 30s who develops into an AA is better than Williams ranked #1 who has yet to put it all together.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

In the summer before Stef Dolson's freshman year at high school, I interviewed several current and former coaches of hers. One coach, who I will not name but one who has coached several high Div I players, told me Stef was a great person, a hard worker, and would be a player/coach type of person but on the court, she was strictly a role player, not an elite one. This was echoed in various other ways by other people, in other words, it was a near-consensus opinion among people that worked with her (the exception was Stef's high school coach) and this was mirrored in the recruit rankings that had her somewhere in the 30's.

So, either everyone is a dope when it comes to evaluating high school players or the coaching staff at UConn (I see you Chris Daily and Marissa Mosley!) help to develop really good players into great ones.

So these coaches thiught a McD All Amerivab was a

Regardless of the NPOTY debates, it's pretty clear that UConn brings in some of the - if not THE - best talent in WCBB. Whether or not Stewart was a true NPOTY in 2012-13 doesn't change the fact that UConn averaged the same points and rebounds per gm between that season and this past one. MLK was more of a factor on the 2012-13 team, because of injury this season. But the OVERALL talent of the roster is still high, even if a huge proportion of it doesn't reside in one single player...

UConn has had top 4 nationally ranked recruiting classes in 5 of the last 7 cycles. The exceptions were 2009 and 2013 when they only brought in one prospect each, so they didn't have a big enough class those cycles to rank, but those prospects were highly rated. 5 of the last 7 ranked top 4 nationally, and I say that only because their most recent class was ranked as low as 4th due to Wilson choosing USC which jumped UConn and bumped them out of the top 3. Otherwise it'd be 5 out of 7 in the top 3 nationally. And they are expected to again have a top class for 2015. And only because I couldn't find recruiting class rankings that go back beyond the 2008 class on the internet...

That cannot be denied: UConn repeatedly has brought in the best overall talent of all the WCBB programs. You maintain that kind of reloading of talent into your program, and if you're a decent coaching staff, then you SHOULD contend for national championships regularly, because your program regularly has national championship-caliber talent on it...

Whether it's the Alabama Crimson Tide in CFB with their national #1 classes every year, or the New York Yankees in the 90s who were in the World Series every year, but also had double the payroll other MLB clubs had every year as well. When you have that kind of talent that laps everyone else, you SHOULD win it all, and often. The coaching staff just needs to get out of the way...

Watch UCONN women play...that will tell you much more than rankings.

 

[Icebear]

But also, those teams were so successful because they had great players (including the best). It's impossible to separate the two.

That is my point. It is impossible to identify the order of cause and result. It is very much a matter of the chicken and the egg.

 

[triaddukefan]

By this calculation over the last four years Duke should be king of the hill - their classes were 1,4,7,2 and this coming year 3. TN that perennial FF team - unranked, 1,5,3,6, and Uconn - 3,2,1,unranked,4.
r.

Now I feel bad for re-entering this thread

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

I calculated the percentages for all teams awhile back and it came down to something like 60% of teams with an NPOY have won the championship in the last 20-25 years. Don't remember the exact number, but it was significant.

What comes first, however? The chicken or the egg? Are most NPOY's on national championship teams or do most teams winning the NC have a NPOY?

 

[MarieYLee]

In the summer before Stef Dolson's freshman year at high school, I interviewed several current and former coaches of hers. One coach, who I will not name but one who has coached several high Div I players, told me Stef was a great person, a hard worker, and would be a player/coach type of person but on the court, she was strictly a role player, not an elite one. This was echoed in various other ways by other people, in other words, it was a near-consensus opinion among people that worked with her (the exception was Stef's high school coach) and this was mirrored in the recruit rankings that had her somewhere in the 30's.

So, either everyone is a dope when it comes to evaluating high school players or the coaching staff at UConn (I see you Chris Daily and Marissa Mosley!) help to develop really good players into great ones.

Not that I disagree with you, because Geno and co. probably is the best at developing talent but only HG had Dolson that low. I believe ASGR had Dolson at #12 and Bluestar had her at #24. Surely her fitness may have been why some may had questions about her. She was also a McD AA, so surely she was rated highly by many.

Same with Hartley, HG had her at 14, but ASGR had her #3, BS #6, Peach State and Olson had her in the Top 10. She was drafted #7 in her class, so looks about right.

No one develops talent like Geno, but the reason UConn has won so many titles is because he has been able to recruit the best talent. The best talent will obviously want to go to where they will developed the best and win championship, so I think Aja's decision to attend USC will be good for WCBB. It may take more difference makers (Durr, Samuelson, Cox) to attend elsewhere for us to see parity in the game. Because when Geno gets THE BEST talent (Stewert, Moore, Charles, Taurasi), is when they dominate. But we've seen when other top players go elsewhere (Augustus, Parker, Griner), and UConn is very very good, but they haven't exactly won championships. Of course sometimes players don't pan out. I believe Strother was rated #1 by some service (Augustus was by other services). Charde Houston was rated pretty high in her class by a few services (Top 3-5).

Anyway, Aja isn't even a consensus #1 player. Turner is rated #1 by Bluestar and Full Court, plus she won the Gatorade POY. Kelsey Mitchell is rated #1 by PN. And Wilson being rated #1 by HG (Olsen) and ASGR. Is she a true difference maker? Or simply a VERY VERY good player (like a Nneka, Chiney, KML)?

 

[HoopsFan21]

Not that I disagree with you, because Geno and co. probably is the best at developing talent but only HG had Dolson that low. I believe ASGR had Dolson at #12 and Bluestar had her at #24. Surely her fitness may have been why some may had questions about her. She was also a McD AA, so surely she was rated highly by many.

Not only that, but she had other offers. CViv recruited her, and Dolson herself said she had offers from other big time schools. It wasn't like Geno found a diamond in the rough that no one else knew about or valued. Clearly other coaches saw the same things in her that Geno did, or rather that Jamelle did since I think she was the one that actually initiated the recruitment. Would other coaches or programs got her to the point she is at now? That's a question that can never be answered.

 

[HuskyNan]

How about Kara Wolters, the National Player of the Year, who couldn't even get interest from her father's alma mater?

 

[UcMiami]

That is my point. It is impossible to identify the order of cause and result. It is very much a matter of the chicken and the egg.

And you can look at all the teams that had great talent and didn't win - Maya ended two Uconn seasons with losses as did Tina but they were POYs Sue and Dee lost in 2001 with a team that ended up having 5 Olympians and four that were still playing at the end and two POYs.
It certainly helps to have POY caliber talent, but it is also true that POY voters tend to select players that are on FF caliber teams. Here is a list of players that could well have been POY winners if they played for the right team:
Sylvia Fowles - LSU was good but not quite good enough
EDD - if she stayed at Uconn and was winning NCs ...
Courtney Vandesloot - her numbers in college were amazing and better than Sue Bird's but she never got a look in because her teams were average.
Lindsey Whalen - same sort of thing.
and conversely - Tina Charles playing just as well for a Sw16 teams does not win against Maya on an NC team had that happened.

Just FYI - Look at this line for CV's senior year - really amazing:
Mins: 32.9
Pts: 19.8
Rebounds 8.4
Assts: 10.2
TOs: 3.3
A/TO: 3.08
Steals: 3.2

 

[intlzncster]

What comes first, however? The chicken or the egg? Are most NPOY's on national championship teams or do most teams winning the NC have a NPOY?

Well FWIW, I'm willing to bet DT, MM, AND BS would be NPOYs without ever having gone to UCONN. They collectively won 7 NCs so far. Probably wouldn't have as much without Geno and company of course.

 

[VAUConnFan]

I got what you meant. But how silly is it that you would make that correlation when the player didn't play well enough that season to win the NPOY.

It is not silly when the player in question had a great Final Four and was the tournament MOP.

 

[UcMiami]

Well FWIW, I'm willing to bet DT, MM, AND BS would be NPOYs without ever having gone to UCONN. They collectively won 7 NCs so far. Probably wouldn't have as much without Geno and company of course.

But only if they went to the right school. I have no question EDD at Uconn or ND or Stanford would have been a POY and probably at MD or Duke. EDD at Delaware didn't have a chance.

 

[intlzncster]

But only if they went to the right school. I have no question EDD at Uconn or ND or Stanford would have been a POY and probably at MD or Duke. EDD at Delaware didn't have a chance.

That is fact. I would love to see what caste of characters DT could throw on her shoulders and go all the way. (yes that english sucked).

 

[Icebear]

What comes first, however? The chicken or the egg? Are most NPOY's on national championship teams or do most teams winning the NC have a NPOY?

Hmmm. I heard this somewhere before.

 

[doggydaddy]

It is not silly when the player in question had a great Final Four and was the tournament MOP.

She wasn't POY.

There are plenty of examples of players stepping up for a tournament.

 

[easttexastrash]

Not that I disagree with you, because Geno and co. probably is the best at developing talent but only HG had Dolson that low. I believe ASGR had Dolson at #12 and Bluestar had her at #24. Surely her fitness may have been why some may had questions about her. She was also a McD AA, so surely she was rated highly by many.

Same with Hartley, HG had her at 14, but ASGR had her #3, BS #6, Peach State and Olson had her in the Top 10. She was drafted #7 in her class, so looks about right.

No one develops talent like Geno, but the reason UConn has won so many titles is because he has been able to recruit the best talent. The best talent will obviously want to go to where they will developed the best and win championship, so I think Aja's decision to attend USC will be good for WCBB. It may take more difference makers (Durr, Samuelson, Cox) to attend elsewhere for us to see parity in the game. Because when Geno gets THE BEST talent (Stewert, Moore, Charles, Taurasi), is when they dominate. But we've seen when other top players go elsewhere (Augustus, Parker, Griner), and UConn is very very good, but they haven't exactly won championships. Of course sometimes players don't pan out. I believe Strother was rated #1 by some service (Augustus was by other services). Charde Houston was rated pretty high in her class by a few services (Top 3-5).

Anyway, Aja isn't even a consensus #1 player. Turner is rated #1 by Bluestar and Full Court, plus she won the Gatorade POY. Kelsey Mitchell is rated #1 by PN. And Wilson being rated #1 by HG (Olsen) and ASGR. Is she a true difference maker? Or simply a VERY VERY good player (like a Nneka, Chiney, KML)?

Are you saying that KML, Nneka and Chiney are not difference makers?

 

[rvwsleep]

Regardless of the NPOTY debates, it's pretty clear that UConn brings in some of the - if not THE - best talent in WCBB. Whether or not Stewart was a true NPOTY in 2012-13 doesn't change the fact that UConn averaged the same points and rebounds per gm between that season and this past one. MLK was more of a factor on the 2012-13 team, because of injury this season. But the OVERALL talent of the roster is still high, even if a huge proportion of it doesn't reside in one single player...

UConn has had top 4 nationally ranked recruiting classes in 5 of the last 7 cycles. The exceptions were 2009 and 2013 when they only brought in one prospect each, so they didn't have a big enough class those cycles to rank, but those prospects were highly rated. 5 of the last 7 ranked top 4 nationally, and I say that only because their most recent class was ranked as low as 4th due to Wilson choosing USC which jumped UConn and bumped them out of the top 3. Otherwise it'd be 5 out of 7 in the top 3 nationally. And they are expected to again have a top class for 2015. And only because I couldn't find recruiting class rankings that go back beyond the 2008 class on the internet...

That cannot be denied: UConn repeatedly has brought in the best overall talent of all the WCBB programs. You maintain that kind of reloading of talent into your program, and if you're a decent coaching staff, then you SHOULD contend for national championships regularly, because your program regularly has national championship-caliber talent on it...

Whether it's the Alabama Crimson Tide in CFB with their national #1 classes every year, or the New York Yankees in the 90s who were in the World Series every year, but also had double the payroll other MLB clubs had every year as well. When you have that kind of talent that laps everyone else, you SHOULD win it all, and often. The coaching staff just needs to get out of the way...

Just a point of fact. The Yankee team of the 1998 (the best of the 90's teams) did not have the highest payroll that year, Baltimore did. And while their payroll in the 90's were multiples of some teams, it was generally only a few percentage points higher than the other highest spending teams.

 

[Icebear]

The Yankees are still evil.

 

[doggydaddy]

The Yankees are still evil.

Three championships and you still act like the sad loser.

 

[Icebear]

Three championships and you still act like the sad loser.

Never a sad loser. Too upbeat for that. I simply hate the Yankees in honor of my uncle. He corrupted the family bringing a line of Yankee fandom into the family that we are still trying to purge. Hop loved the Bronz Bombers and being hated for their dominance in the 60s. He was a huge Whitey Ford fan. Uncle Hop died a couple of years ago but it would be disrespectful to his memory to stop hating the Yanks.

 

[doggydaddy]

Never a sad loser. Too upbeat for that. I simply hate the Yankees in honor of my uncle. He corrupted the family bringing a line of Yankee fandom into the family that we are still trying to purge. Hop loved the Bronz Bombers and being hated for their dominance in the 60s. He was a huge Whitey Ford fan. Uncle Hop died a couple of years ago but it would be disrespectful to his memory to stop hating the Yanks.

Hating is ok. But a man of the cloth should know what evil is.