OT: Realignment?

[Hoophound]

I have been told by some people pretty high up/knowledgeable with this situation mess that the "P5" have a problem if UConn is left out of any breakway because of women's basketball and Title IX. The optics would look terrible (assumes the split will include basketball(s)), and might be basis for a lawsuit or anti-trust violation.

I'd also assume it would be tough to leave Army, Navy and Air Force out for patriotic reasons.

Honestly, you just never know what people will think or be concerned about on this stuff. I can say, I have always hoped Geno would stick around until we were in a power conference. The women’s program is a real nice bonus for our AD.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

I have been told by some people pretty high up/knowledgeable with this situation mess that the "P5" have a problem if UConn is left out of any breakway because of women's basketball and Title IX. The optics would look terrible (assumes the split will include basketball(s)), and might be basis for a lawsuit or anti-trust violation.

I'd also assume it would be tough to leave Army, Navy and Air Force out for patriotic reasons.

Yes, the women's bball program (and our success and commitment to the other Olympic events) gives us some traction for sure. We're P5 in non-P5 clothes. Time will tell and if football can come back to respectability, you never know. Everybody has to pull for football to start pulling the Husky sled! The time is now/in the next 1-2 years.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I have a hard time seeing schools like Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, and Northwestern going along with what is effectively a de facto minor league for the NFL and NBA. I get that it has kind of been that way for a while, but where college athletics are going is a long way from where it has been. There will be agents and contracts and players getting fired. What happens academically when a player gets cut mid-semester? The SEC state schools don't care because academics are a big fat joke down there anyway, but the prestige schools have huge endowments and bring in tens of millions in donations, and I don't think the new age of athletics will be worth it for a school like Stanford or Duke.

 

[Ha Who]

There is quite a bit of this happening. Eventually (who knows when) it will happen to these conferences that expanded without getting rid of their dead weight

Kellogg to separate into three companies focusing on snacks, cereal and plant-based foods

Kellogg plans to separate into three independent public companies, sectioning off its iconic brands into distinct snacking, cereal and plant-based businesses.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Chuck]

I have a hard time seeing schools like Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, and Northwestern going along with what is effectively a de facto minor league for the NFL and NBA. I get that it has kind of been that way for a while, but where college athletics are going is a long way from where it has been. There will be agents and contracts and players getting fired. What happens academically when a player gets cut mid-semester? The SEC state schools don't care because academics are a big fat joke down there anyway, but the prestige schools have huge endowments and bring in tens of millions in donations, and I don't think the new age of athletics will be worth it for a school like Stanford or Duke.

You may lose a school or two, but I just can't see some of those schools you mentioned giving up their identity as great academic schools that also do sports. Just an opinion. I think Duke, especially, has become Duke partially because of that identity. Those schools may have endowments that would allow them to give the finger to the changes, but they may not want to lose the draw they have to get a kid over an Ivy because of the rah rah atmosphere. It might be easier for Northeastern to join U Chicago or Johns Hopkins, I guess.

I agree that the schools won't tarnish their academic reputations, but I have to believe they'll find a way to keep a foot in both camps. To your question about being cut, it may just mean that the school fully separates the athletic from the academic. You owe us $60k per year. Where you get that $60k is up to you. If you get cut from the Duke football team that was paying you $75k per year, you can either find another way to pay us or drop out. That's really not much different than any other student.

I'd be more interested in what this means for other purposes that colleges have never had to worry about. Taxes for the schools (are they still non-profit?) and taxes for the athlete student. Antitrust problems now that they'd officially be businesses.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

I have been told by some people pretty high up/knowledgeable with this situation mess that the "P5" have a problem if UConn is left out of any breakway because of women's basketball and Title IX. The optics would look terrible (assumes the split will include basketball(s)), and might be basis for a lawsuit or anti-trust violation.

I'd also assume it would be tough to leave Army, Navy and Air Force out for patriotic reasons.

You can't underestimate greed in America, and the drive for profit at all costs with people being left behind or screwed is just part of collateral damage.

This is essentially what college sports have become, and the future isn't looking too bright. How much longer will average fans put up with this? Who knows? At some point, I imagine that those championship trophies will become meaningless when one team has a $200M payroll while the other has $10M.

 

[Exit 4]

You can't underestimate greed in America, and the drive for profit at all costs with people being left behind or screwed is just part of collateral damage.

This is essentially what college sports have become, and the future isn't looking too bright. How much longer will average fans put up with this? Who knows? At some point, I imagine that those championship trophies will become meaningless when one team has a $200M payroll while the other has $10M.

Greed? Well - yeah, but also competition. None of these P5 schools want to fall behind, so they push for maximization and let the cards fall as they may on many issues. Play nice and risk falling behind and never catching back up.

This is pretty much the human condition as well on the whole.

 

[CAtlantic]

ESPN chairman reaffirms that Oklahoma and Texas will remain in the Big 12 until 2025

While talking about college football inventory on ESPN networks, ESPN chairman Jimmy Pitaro reiterated that the Longhorns and Sooners won’t join the SEC until the 2025 season.

www.deseret.com

 

[businesslawyer]

You may lose a school or two, but I just can't see some of those schools you mentioned giving up their identity as great academic schools that also do sports. Just an opinion. I think Duke, especially, has become Duke partially because of that identity. Those schools may have endowments that would allow them to give the finger to the changes, but they may not want to lose the draw they have to get a kid over an Ivy because of the rah rah atmosphere. It might be easier for Northeastern to join U Chicago or Johns Hopkins, I guess.

I agree that the schools won't tarnish their academic reputations, but I have to believe they'll find a way to keep a foot in both camps. To your question about being cut, it may just mean that the school fully separates the athletic from the academic. You owe us $60k per year. Where you get that $60k is up to you. If you get cut from the Duke football team that was paying you $75k per year, you can either find another way to pay us or drop out. That's really not much different than any other student.

I'd be more interested in what this means for other purposes that colleges have never had to worry about. Taxes for the schools (are they still non-profit?) and taxes for the athlete student. Antitrust problems now that they'd officially be businesses.

People are making this "are they still non-profits" thing much more complicated than it is. Non-profits can pay salaries, even if they are huge. The only question is whether profits go to owners or stay in the non-profit entity. So as long as Athletic Departments are not making money that they aren't spending, or if they are taking profit and giving it to the university for other purposes, they without question remain non-profits.

 

[Chuck]

People are making this "are they still non-profits" thing much more complicated than it is. Non-profits can pay salaries, even if they are huge. The only question is whether profits go to owners or stay in the non-profit entity. So as long as Athletic Departments are not making money that they aren't spending, or if they are taking profit and giving it to the university for other purposes, they without question remain non-profits.

I DO NOT practice in this area at all, so I'm not claiming expertise. And I think it would be a loooong way off, and a difficult decision politically. But you aren't a nonprofit just because you don't profit. You still need to fit into one of the enumerated purposes and not do stuff that isn't allowed.

I also think it becomes harder for nonprofit universities to claim that they don't at least have unrelated business income as athletics continue to become professional? "Income from a trade or business, regularly carried on, that is not substantially related to the charitable, educational, or other purpose that is the basis of the organization's exemption." So they could at least be taxed on all of the athletic profits, including broadcasting, concessions.... They've avoided that to date because it's done to support amateur athletics which is a purpose of their exemption.

Then again, most athletic departments run at a loss, so maybe it wouldn't impact them anyway! Or maybe it will cause a resurgence in non-revenue sports to act as tax deductions? That's what I was referring to when I said I was interested in the other stuff.

 

[Exit 4]

I DO NOT practice in this area at all, so I'm not claiming expertise. And I think it would be a loooong way off, and a difficult decision politically. But you aren't a nonprofit just because you don't profit. You still need to fit into one of the enumerated purposes and not do stuff that isn't allowed.

I also think it becomes harder for nonprofit universities to claim that they don't at least have unrelated business income as athletics continue to become professional? "Income from a trade or business, regularly carried on, that is not substantially related to the charitable, educational, or other purpose that is the basis of the organization's exemption." So they could at least be taxed on all of the athletic profits, including broadcasting, concessions.... They've avoided that to date because it's done to support amateur athletics which is a purpose of their exemption.

Then again, most athletic departments run at a loss, so maybe it wouldn't impact them anyway! Or maybe it will cause a resurgence in non-revenue sports to act as tax deductions? That's what I was referring to when I said I was interested in the other stuff.

I see you have some of the lingo- nice. As long as they plow those sports revenues back into other philanthropic endeavors they will be okay. Thing is - the feds have never attached wages under non profits and so plenty of nonprofits pay out massive compensation. You can get rich running a nonprofit- no doubt…. Plenty do.

 

[HuskyDogArt]

OMG...a new thought...the NIL is out of hand.

The NIL is going to kill some small programs. When I was on the MCC (Manchester Community College) soccer team, I would be happy to drive a new Ford Torino instead of my Ford Pinto. Of course, if NIL was back then, I think the state would drop all athletics at the community colleges, like they did in the late 90s.

 

[businesslawyer]

I DO NOT practice in this area at all, so I'm not claiming expertise. And I think it would be a loooong way off, and a difficult decision politically. But you aren't a nonprofit just because you don't profit. You still need to fit into one of the enumerated purposes and not do stuff that isn't allowed.

I also think it becomes harder for nonprofit universities to claim that they don't at least have unrelated business income as athletics continue to become professional? "Income from a trade or business, regularly carried on, that is not substantially related to the charitable, educational, or other purpose that is the basis of the organization's exemption." So they could at least be taxed on all of the athletic profits, including broadcasting, concessions.... They've avoided that to date because it's done to support amateur athletics which is a purpose of their exemption.

Then again, most athletic departments run at a loss, so maybe it wouldn't impact them anyway! Or maybe it will cause a resurgence in non-revenue sports to act as tax deductions? That's what I was referring to when I said I was interested in the other stuff.

I believe your first paragraph is describing the requirements for a 501(c)(3) -- a non-profit that, if contributions are made to you, are tax deductible. Forming a non-profit corporation under CT law (which I know something about, but the law in most states I believe is similar) is not nearly so restrictive. You can't have equity owners and any money you make has to be used for the public good, with the State AG being able to require that the money be spent properly.

But it doesn't matter how much money an Athletic Department generates or how much it pays it coaches or one day players -- it is part of a university and there is no world in which a not for profit university isn't eligible for 501(c)(3) -- the Athletic Department isn't a pimple on the university's butt.

 

[CL82]

I believe your first paragraph is describing the requirements for a 501(c)(3) -- a non-profit that, if contributions are made to you, are tax deductible. Forming a non-profit corporation under CT law (which I know something about, but the law in most states I believe is similar) is not nearly so restrictive. You can't have equity owners and any money you make has to be used for the public good, with the State AG being able to require that the money be spent properly.

But it doesn't matter how much money an Athletic Department generates or how much it pays it coaches or one day players -- it is part of a university and there is no world in which a not for profit university isn't eligible for 501(c)(3) -- the Athletic Department isn't a pimple on the university's butt.

Reread his post. It’s much more nuanced than you suggest.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I believe your first paragraph is describing the requirements for a 501(c)(3) -- a non-profit that, if contributions are made to you, are tax deductible. Forming a non-profit corporation under CT law (which I know something about, but the law in most states I believe is similar) is not nearly so restrictive. You can't have equity owners and any money you make has to be used for the public good, with the State AG being able to require that the money be spent properly.

But it doesn't matter how much money an Athletic Department generates or how much it pays it coaches or one day players -- it is part of a university and there is no world in which a not for profit university isn't eligible for 501(c)(3) -- the Athletic Department isn't a pimple on the university's butt.

That is not exactly true, otherwise you could just structure a business as a "non-profit", call owners "employees", pay 99.999999999999999999% of its proceeds in salaries, and give $10 to the United Way. Would that work?

 

[businesslawyer]

That is not exactly true, otherwise you could just structure a business as a "non-profit", call owners "employees", pay 99.999999999999999999% of its proceeds in salaries, and give $10 to the United Way. Would that work?

It probably would work. Because what the ”owners” would be taking out would be taken out as salary and would be taxable, so the “profits” would be subject to tax and the IRS wouldn’t care.

That having been said, as a general matter anything done as a sham to avoid taxes can be taxed in the manner that it would have been taxed at without the sham, but in your example no one is avoiding taxes.

 

[freescooter]

It is complex. I’ve been the ceo of a for profit company that was a whole owned subsidiary of a non-profit that I was executive vp of, at the same time I was a director of a Non-profit that was a wholey owned subsidiary of a major for profit corporation. And a non-profit doesn’t have to spend all its “profits”. It can have hold substantial “reserves.”

 

[CAtlantic]

Given that the outlook and trajectory for the Pac-12 Networks has stayed consistently bleak compared to other conference networks, the takeaway here is that the conference is no longer interested in pursuing the long-term upside of propping up the Pac 12 Network with football games. It’s costing them money, and there isn’t reason to believe that’s going to stop. So why keep doing it? The writing is on the wall.

So if this comes to fruition, this really eliminates the option laid out of revising the model to match the Big Ten Network and SEC Network. Those networks have football. That’s where the value is. Eliminating football really leaves a pretty limited amount of options in a) shuttering the network and selling the content and or b) potentially pivoting the Pac-12 Networks into an Olympic sports-only streaming service.

Are we approaching the end of the road for the Pac-12 Networks as we know them?

Airing football games on the Pac-12 Networks may no longer make sense, which brings up some hard questions about those networks.

awfulannouncing.com

 

[Exit 4]

That is not exactly true, otherwise you could just structure a business as a "non-profit", call owners "employees", pay 99.999999999999999999% of its proceeds in salaries, and give $10 to the United Way. Would that work?

It can work this way or very close to something like this....as long as the mission of the 501c3 is fulfilled.... An organization that does free health care, training, education, housing, etc could all operate something close to this way.

A few years ago congress contemplated capping salaries in non profits at $1 million - but I don't think that bill passed.

Take a look at universities and hospitals, two non profits that often pay out very generous compensation in order to compete for labor talent.

The key to a legit non profit is to have a 5 member board - no relatives.

 

[Luna]

I’m not so sure Uconn should accept a acc invite… I can see ND bolting to the big 10 with all the money they are getting with the next tv deal…if that happens the better teams in the acc will be trying to get in the sec.. could be a dumpster fire… the big east tv contract is coming up.. I think we will see a big increase in money with the uconn add and also the conference is going to be very good next year…are football team might start playing better with are new coach… that tv contract is also expiring…maybe we will get more there also

 

[CL82]

I’m not so sure Uconn should accept a acc invite… I can see ND bolting to the big 10 with all the money they are getting with the next tv deal…if that happens the better teams in the acc will be trying to get in the sec.. could be a dumpster fire… the big east tv contract is coming up.. I think we will see a big increase in money with the uconn add and also the conference is going to be very good next year…are football team might start playing better with are new coach… that tv contract is also expiring…maybe we will get more there also

I would be surprised if it would get up to a $10 million per school distribution.

 

[Luna]

I don’t think we will get $10 million either… I just want enough so we can compete ..I just love uconn in the big east, I feel like it’s are home

 

[freescooter]

Best case $7 million in the NOOB next tv contract. Plus with Villanova losing their head coach, it will take some time to determine if they remain a legit program or follow UConn to a period of irrelevance from which we are just now trying to escape, though arguably have not yet totally succeeded.

 

[CL82]

I don’t think we will get $10 million either… I just want enough so we can compete ..I just love uconn in the big east, I feel like it’s are home

Even if we got 10 or even 15 million it isn’t enough to compete.

 

[buddy]

I don’t think we will get $10 million either… I just want enough so we can compete ..I just love uconn in the big east, I feel like it’s are home

It's "are" home if you enjoy being a bully in a midmajor conference. UConn should be dominating in every sport in the Big East. UConn I believe would leap at an invite to the ACC now or in the future. Independence in football is a great experiment but conference affiliation is basically required for success. Independence in football for UConn is a necessary evil at this point, but cannot be sustained.