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Debate me! Top 10

GemParty

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Kobe doesn't belong. Oscar or even Moses Malone deserve top be higher than him. I have LeBron at #1, but can't be ,ade at those who say it is Jordan. Leaving Shaq off the list is criminal.

So Big O and Shaq on. kobe and Tim Duncan off. Though, Duncan was a better player than Mr. Russell. Bit no one was big a winner.
I guess it all depends where you place value.

If you poll the current NBA, my feel is 80% or more would say Kobe is top 5. To miss the top 10, I would find shocking, for me personally.

Most believe, including me, he’s the closest thing skill/game wise to MJ. Rings to back it up. So if you feel MJ is top2, you can’t ignore his direct comp. Right?

I think I heard Shaq say he’s the 4th best Center ever. Now my top 10, can’t be all Centers. Other positions have changed the game.

Maybe Shaq for Duncan is reasonable.


Q- how much better is Brady vs Marino as a football player? 6x better?

Rings matter. Bill Russell & Wilt changed the Center position and played one another. If you asked Wilt, to rank Bill, where do you honestly think he would place him?

Food for thought. That’s why this is one of the greatest sports topics ever for debate, and there’s no correct answer.
 

Hunt for 7

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And the “logo” Jerry West I do not see even mentioned once. I saw Isiah and no doubt he was great but better than West. Not sure. This is an almost impossible list to create without snubbing a deserving candidate.
 
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MJ
Bron
Kareem
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan

Tim Duncan is the basketball player equivalent of Tom Brady. Long career of consistent winning spanning a few eras of bball, ready to win from the day he entered the league to the day he left. More rings than bird, Lebron. As many regular season mvps as Shaq and Kobe combined. Only Mj has more finals MVPs, probably the second best defender of all time behind bill Russell. One ray allen miss away from matching Michael’s 6-0 in the finals.

S/O Clayton Crowley on YouTube for putting me on this opinion, but Tim Duncan, even as a consensus top 10 is criminally underrated.
 
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Shaq needs to be somewhere on this list but as a Spurs fan, I have Duncan rated higher.
1. Jordan
2. Lebron (I Can’t Stand Lebron).
3. Wilt? (I Never Saw Him Play)
4. Magic
5. Kobe
6. Duncan
7. SHAQ
8. Bird
9. Anyone but Steph
10. Anyone but Steph
Bird too low….agree with your comment on your #2 guy (I can’t even type his name) and I would have him lower.
 

WeAreUCONN

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Bird too low….agree with your comment on your #2 guy (I can’t even type his name) and I would have him lower.
I have Magic above Bird because he beat him head to head many times, and the game was very different back then. Hard to say Bird is better than Shaq, Duncan, Wilt, Kareem, but a case can be made for him. I’m only 46, so I didn’t see Bird’s entire career, only the end.
 
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I guess it all depends where you place value.

If you poll the current NBA, my feel is 80% or more would say Kobe is top 5. To miss the top 10, I would find shocking, for me personally.

Most believe, including me, he’s the closest thing skill/game wise to MJ. Rings to back it up. So if you feel MJ is top2, you can’t ignore his direct comp. Right?

I think I heard Shaq say he’s the 4th best Center ever. Now my top 10, can’t be all Centers. Other positions have changed the game.

Maybe Shaq for Duncan is reasonable.


Q- how much better is Brady vs Marino as a football player? 6x better?

Rings matter. Bill Russell & Wilt changed the Center position and played one another. If you asked Wilt, to rank Bill, where do you honestly think he would place him?

Food for thought. That’s why this is one of the greatest sports topics ever for debate, and there’s no correct answer.
Kobe was prolific, but not as great as he should have been. If you list the 7 or 8 greatest wing players ever, he would be the only one who shot less than 46% for his career. Bron, MJ, Dr. J, Bird, KD, etc. I value effective efficiency above all, but that is my thing. Talent wise, Kobe is probably top 3 ever, but he was too " me first" for me.

If you were starting a team, you would take Mr. Chamberlain over Mr. Russell ever day of the week and twice on Sunday. Wilt changed basketball.

I think Marino is the best QB at throwing the ball I her ever seen. But Brady is by far the greatest QB. "Best" is about ability. "Greatest" is ability + results + era, in my opinion.

I agree, these questions are part of what makes fandom great.
 
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Sorry but I grew up watching Russell vs Chamberlain and I would take Russell. Their teams played head to head 94 times in the regular season and Russell's team won 57 of those games and then they met in the playoffs 49 times and Russell won 29 of those matchups. Russell has 11 championship and Chamberlain has 2. They both wore great players. Just my opinion I liked Russell.
 

WeAreUCONN

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MJ
Bron
Kareem
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan

Tim Duncan is the basketball player equivalent of Tom Brady. Long career of consistent winning spanning a few eras of bball, ready to win from the day he entered the league to the day he left. More rings than bird, Lebron. As many regular season mvps as Shaq and Kobe combined. Only Mj has more finals MVPs, probably the second best defender of all time behind bill Russell. One ray allen miss away from matching Michael’s 6-0 in the finals.

S/O Clayton Crowley on YouTube for putting me on this opinion, but Tim Duncan, even as a consensus top 10 is criminally underrated.
I love Ray but that 3 absolutely crushed my soul but them going on a revenge tour the next year took away most of that pain. I had nba league pass for the majority of Duncan’s career. Watching Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, and Kawai towards the end, was magical.

If not for the Lakers, Duncan probably has 9 rings.
 
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Sorry but I grew up watching Russell vs Chamberlain and I would take Russell. Their teams played head to head 94 times in the regular season and Russell's team won 57 of those games and then they met in the playoffs 49 times and Russell won 29 of those matchups. Russell has 11 championship and Chamberlain has 2. They both wore great players. Just my opinion I liked Russell.
He had the superior team around him. Wilt averaged something like 38 and 22 against the Celts in those years. Plus Wilt could do it all. Mr. Russell just happened to be a basketball genius surrounded by multiple HOFers
 

Matrim55

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He had the superior team around him. Wilt averaged something like 38 and 22 against the Celts in those years. Plus Wilt could do it all. Mr. Russell just happened to be a basketball genius surrounded by multiple HOFers
The Celtics cratered without Russell. From Ben Taylor:

Boston was a 35-win team (-1.9 SRS) in 28 games he missed from 1958-69, and for the other 915 games of his career they played at a 59-win pace (6.4 SRS). This is a tiny piece of evidence – the years are spread out, teams change, and so on — but it echoes the same story as Russell’s other value signals.

For instance, when his teammates missed time, Boston rarely missed a beat. In 1958, Bob Cousy sat for seven games and the Celtics played far better without him. In ’59 and ’60, Sharman, Cousy and Tom Heinsohn missed a few games each, and the machine kept on ticking. In ’61, Sharman missed 18 games and the Celtics were (again) better without him. In ’62, Cousy missed five and, yes, the Celtics were better without him (portending his retirement years).6

But Russell missed four games in 1962 and Boston’s differential fell by 22 points. Four games is infinitesimally small, but all of these stories point in the same direction. It was only when Russell was hampered by injury (in the 1958 Finals) that the Celtics fell short of a title — the single time a Russell team failed to win in a 12-year span dating back to college.7

This trend would hold throughout most of Russell’s career. In ’66, Sam Jones missed eight games and Boston’s performance didn’t budge. Jones missed 11 more contests in ’69 and the team was about 2 points worse without him. All told, as the roster cycled around Russell, his impact seemed to remain. A more detailed calculation of his game-level value has Russell at the top of the impact-heap in his era, while similar studies have him behind only Jerry West and Oscar Robertson (who both had the fortune of playing on dominant teams during the most watered-down years in NBA history).

At the height of their dynasty, the Celtics were comically dominant. From 1962-65, their average margin-of-victory (MOV) was over 8 points per game. During the same time span, only two other teams even eclipsed 4 points per game – the ’64 Royals and the ’64 Warriors. And all of Boston’s separation was created by its historic defense, anchored by Russell.

Boston platooned different players around Russell while he anchored the greatest defensive dynasty in NBA history. At its height (1960-1966), Russell played 43 to 45 minutes per game while only Sam Jones topped 35 per game (once, in 1965). During the 1963 season, no other Celtic played over 31 minutes per contest. To put Boston’s defensive dominance into perspective, let’s zoom out and revisit the above graph, but this time using all defensive seasons since 1955:

russell chart.png
 

Chin Diesel

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For me the hardest to slot in top 10-12 are Wilt, Shaq and Kobe.
Wilt, by all individual stats is #1 or #2. His career and Russell's career had significant overlap and Russell's rings crush Wilt even though there is no debate Russell had a better supporting cast. It was the next iteration of DiMaggio and Teddy Ball Game.
Shaq was a force but compared to Wilt, Russell and Jabbar I still think Shaq comes up short. I put Olajuwon ahead of Shaq and put Shaq at #5 for centers all-time.
Kobe is another player whose mental toughness increases his perception. He was lethal as a two way scorer and defender. Is he a better version of Dr J? IDK. Steph revolutionized the game with his ability to make shots anywhere inside of 35'. Did Kobe revolutionize anything or just perfect an existing paradigm? Again, IDK.
I hated the Celtics as a kid but man, if Bird had two more years healthy, he'd be 2-3 spots higher.
 

GemParty

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I wonder what if Wilt & Bill traded teams. Would Wilt have all the rings? Could Bill have been featured more in scoring?

Or, would Bill have helped beat the Celtics? Would Boston have 17x? Who knows….
 

Chin Diesel

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I wonder what if Wilt & Bill traded teams. Would Wilt have all the rings? Could Bill have been featured more in scoring?

Or, would Bill have helped beat the Celtics? Would Boston have 17x? Who knows….

I would think Wilt would have more rings than Russell and it's not even debatable.

Would it be a pure reversal of rings? That is the question. Was Russell's strength of his ability to lead from behind and act as a conductor what led to his teammates' success? Or was what Russell did 100% his ability? Were Russell's teammates HoF players because of their own talent or did Russell's game style elevate them beyond their own abilities?
We know later in Wilt's career he was a willing passer and let others take the scoring burden but did young Wilt have that in him? Did Wilt "learn" how to become a better teammate rather than doing his thing and everyone else got in line behind him?
 
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Big O for either Kobe or Steph.

Russell way too high amd Magic way too low.


Jordan
Kareem/Magic #2 or #3.
Bron
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Duncan
Oscar
Kobe, Steph or Olajuwon at #10.
Kobe over Steph...not even a debate imo. I have Kobe in 6/7 range

Steph is top 15 fo being best 3 pt shooter ever
 
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uconnbill

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Bill Russell was a great passer, and one of the best rebounders ever at 6'9". I only saw the tail end of his career, but those championships happened because of a lot of un-selfish play from Russell.

He has to be a top 5 all-time player no matter the era.
 

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