Can One Player Win a Championship All By Themselves?

[The deacon]

Paige Bueckers, Caitlin Clark, Diana Taurasi, and Sue Bird are the 4 greatest Point Guards in WBB history and the order can be interchangeable for having the most talent to make their teammates play better than their normal talent!

Both Taurasi and Bird have played with some of the greatest players in WBB, but Taurasi in 2003 and 2004 made average players GREAT to win 2 unbelievable NCAA Championships!

An argument could be made that Sue, DT and Caitlin are three of the greatest point guards in women's college basketball history, and Paige certainly has the potential to join them.

I'd just like to take a minute to again note the misconception that Diana carried a bunch of mediocre, average or anything of the sort type players to those '03 and '04 titles. First of all, Geno wouldn't have had that sort of team on the court vs. Tennessee in those title games.

A quick check of those UConn rosters shows that Jessica Moore, Barbara Turner, Ashley Battle and Ann Strother all were drafted and played in the WNBA, several for quite a few years. Average college players don't get to the WNBA, then or now.

Good Huskies fans with fairly long memories might also remember that Strother scored 17 points in the championship game and 14 more in the '04 championship game. DT deserves worlds of credit for elevating the level of play by her teammates, right? Well, if that was the case, how were they average players?

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Woah, woah, woah, woah. Now this is ridiculous. You can't put Clark and Bueckers in the same sentence with DT and Bird. Really not even yet for college, let alone WBB (college and pro and NT).

Clark and Bueckers haven't even played a single pro game, or a single NT game. This is sacrilege. So disrespectful. Clark/Bueckers between them have 2NPOY's, 3 AAs, and 0 NCs. Bird/DT have 3NPOYs, 4 AAs, 3 NCs, along with 7 WNBA championships, 22 WNBA all-stars, 11 Euro club championships, 10 Olympic GMs, 7 WC GMs. They hold WNBA most points scored (DT), most career assists (Bird). I mean come on, some of you guys are being nucking futs. You're comparing 2 of the greatest WBB players ever, ever, in history vs a couple college kids, 1 who has only played a year and 1/2?

Now, maybe 10 years down the road, we can see where they are. And maybe, they will become another Bird/DT. They probably got that potential. But that's years away. Years. Take it easy, enjoy the ride. Let it mature and develop.

Honestly, I have no idea what can be going on in some of y'alls heads.

meyers7- - -Ooopps! I meant Paige and Caitlin POTENTIALLY can be among the best point guards!
They started at such a high level that with experience they have the tools to really push the outside of the envelope!

 

[meyers7]

That sounds catchy, until you consider all the great players who dealt with and overcame serious injuries. At UConn that includes Shea, Sveta, Sue, DT & Stewie along with Paige. There are countless other great athletes in many different sports who have overcome major injuries: Peyton Manning, Adrian Peterson, Buster Posey, Paul George….and the list goes on and on.

Anyone who’s competed in sports for any length of time has dealt with serious injury at one time or another. A player’s greatness is not determined by their ability to avoid injury, but rather by their ability to overcome injury.

It is my sincere hope and belief that Paige will be back, better than ever, next season, and if she does come all the way back, her journey from all the injuries that have plagued her career to date will be one of Paige’s greatest achievements.

You missed the point there. Sure everybody gets injured. But actually playing is a crucial part of being great. When a player has missed half their career, so far, you have to take that into account when comparing players. So far Clark has had a better career than Bueckers. A lot by virtue of being available.

If/when Bueckers comes back and continues her phenomenal career, then great. But it hasn't happened yet. Hopefully it will.

 

[oldude]

You missed the point there. Sure everybody gets injured. But actually playing is a crucial part of being great. When a player has missed half their career, so far, you have to take that into account when comparing players. So far Clark has had a better career than Bueckers. A lot by virtue of being available.

If/when Bueckers comes back and continues her phenomenal career, then great. But it hasn't happened yet. Hopefully it will.

We have different metrics when it comes to what makes a player great. I will continue to argue that not getting injured is a measure of “durability.” Karl Malone played 19 seasons in the NBA. He was a great player and perhaps the most durable player ever. But I would argue that Bill Walton was a better basketball player, despite being plagued by injuries throughout his 13 year career in the NBA.

 

[BBallF]

An argument could be made that Sue, DT and Caitlin are three of the greatest point guards in women's college basketball history, and Paige certainly has the potential to join them.

I'd just like to take a minute to again note the misconception that Diana carried a bunch of mediocre, average or anything of the sort type players to those '03 and '04 titles. First of all, Geno wouldn't have had that sort of team on the court vs. Tennessee in those title games.

A quick check of those UConn rosters shows that Jessica Moore, Barbara Turner, Ashley Battle and Ann Strother all were drafted and played in the WNBA, several for quite a few years. Average college players don't get to the WNBA, then or now.

Good Huskies fans with fairly long memories might also remember that Strother scored 17 points in the championship game and 14 more in the '04 championship game. DT deserves worlds of credit for elevating the level of play by her teammates, right? Well, if that was the case, how were they average players?

I think the original point was that the difference between Clark on the one hand and Sue, DT and Paige on the other is the ability to make teammates better during a game, to elevate them to greatness for that moment. I suppose the quintessential example is MJ with Steve Kerr or John Paxson. Sure, they were both pros, but incapable of rising to that special moment of being epic and throwing the championship punch without MJ. He willed it through them with his confidence.

The same was true with DT and Strother. She never had a greater game when all was on the line than the 2003 or 2004 game, you can take your pick, and that was because of Diana. Moore, Battle and Turner never had the same shining moments than those they had when with Diana. Why was that? The great ones have a gift of making those around them better than they could be otherwise, sometimes just for a game, a quarter, or even a play. Ask Marie Conlon. She looked like a First Team AA out there with Diana in the title game. I said it before, that game changed her life. I would not be surprised to see her in Congress or holding state office someday. Once you overcome obstacles and get to the top, with a little help from the GOAT, nothing is really ever an obstacle again in your mind, and after all, isn't that all that stops you anyway with most things?.

 

[BBallF]

We have different metrics when it comes to what makes a player great. I will continue to argue that not getting injured is a measure of “durability.” Karl Malone played 19 seasons in the NBA. He was a great player and perhaps the most durable player ever. But I would argue that Bill Walton was a better basketball player, despite being plagued by injuries throughout his 13 year career in the NBA.

And you would be right. Of course, the injured and hobbled Walton was not a better player than Malone was healthy but that is not the test. Take Walton in his healthy prime and Malone in his healthy prime and there is no comparison in my mind. Let's not forget the performance against Memphis State in the NCAA finals. 21-22 from the field. 44 points. The lingering mystery is only 2 free throws?

 

[meyers7]

We have different metrics when it comes to what makes a player great. I will continue to argue that not getting injured is a measure of “durability.” Karl Malone played 19 seasons in the NBA. He was a great player and perhaps the most durable player ever. But I would argue that Bill Walton was a better basketball player, despite being plagued by injuries throughout his 13 year career in the NBA.

It's not "not getting injured". Like I said everyone gets injured. But actually playing is a metric that goes into greatness (just 1 of many). Can't say a player had a couple great seasons, so they're the best. You gotta have a career.

 

[oldude]

It's not "not getting injured". Like I said everyone gets injured. But actually playing is a metric that goes into greatness (just 1 of many). Can't say a player had a couple great seasons, so they're the best. You gotta have a career.

There’s a lot of ways to look at the question. If I had to win one game for all the marbles, I would have Paige running my team over Clark. It’s a close call to be sure, and it comes with the assumption that both players are healthy. But that’s my choice.

 

[BBallF]

There’s a lot of ways to look at the question. If I had to win one game for all the marbles, I would have Paige running my team over Clark. It’s a close call to be sure, and it comes with the assumption that both players are healthy. But that’s my choice.

Mine too. Human memory is very imperfect and I don't think that the "floor" portion off her game ( passing for assists, passing for "hockey" assists, defense, anticipation on both ends of the court, running the offense, seeing the floor) is adequately recalled. When you see a healthy Paige play live and up close, as I was able to do at Seton Hall on December 3, 2021 before her first major injury, you see a basketball brain at work unlike any other right now, not even Clark's. She had 23 points, 9 rebounds , 7 assists, 5 steals and 0 turnovers. Her eyes were all over the court. I saw her anticipate a pass while playing defense 2 passes before. She also made a long pass to CW on a break that made everyone a believer. She is a different player than Clark. Both are truly great but I will take Paige for the win.

 

[meyers7]

There’s a lot of ways to look at the question. If I had to win one game for all the marbles, I would have Paige running my team over Clark. It’s a close call to be sure, and it comes with the assumption that both players are healthy. But that’s my choice.

Sure, but which Bueckers, which Clark. Freshman Bueckers, Jr Bueckers (sitting on the sidelines)? Freshman Clark, Jr Clark against S. Carolina?

I assume you'd want a Bueckers that wasn't injured, correct? And that's the point.

You can't just pick a moment in time athlete when comparing athletes for greatness or GOATness. Heck I'd take any pitcher who pitched a perfect game. But not all or them are in the HOF......because it was just a moment in time. I know that gets away from injuries a bit, but it's kind of the same point. Gotta play to be great. (gotta win too, but that's another argument in another thread )

 

[oldude]

Sure, but which Bueckers, which Clark. Freshman Bueckers, Jr Bueckers (sitting on the sidelines)? Freshman Clark, Jr Clark against S. Carolina?

I assume you'd want a Bueckers that wasn't injured, correct? And that's the point.

You can't just pick a moment in time athlete when comparing athletes for greatness or GOATness. Heck I'd take any pitcher who pitched a perfect game. But not all or them are in the HOF......because it was just a moment in time. I know that gets away from injuries a bit, but it's kind of the same point. Gotta play to be great. (gotta win too, but that's another argument in another thread )

Well, if I have to choose, I’ll take freshman, sophomore or senior Bueckers over Clark….

 

[wingsfan055]

Didnt Geno answer this question recently. He mentioned DT. DT in her senior year carried the team to a Title that it had no business winning based on overall team talent.

 

[meyers7]

Didnt Geno answer this question recently. He mentioned DT. DT in her senior year carried the team to a Title that it had no business winning based on overall team talent.

I think it was more her Jr year. I don't know anyone who thought UCONN had a chance to win a NC the year after Bird, Williams, Cash, Jones left.

At least her Sr year, they had already won it with the same group. The problem that year was DT was hurting so much.

 

[JellyBean]

The best example that I can think of as to whether one player can lead a team to a championship is 1979's Larry Bird's Indiana State team against Magic Johnson & Greg Kelser's Michigan State team. Although Bird single-handedly led his team over a great Depaul team in the semi-finals that featured Mark Aguirre, Terry Cummings and Clyde Bradshaw, he was not enough to carry his team to victory in the finals. Much like Miss St ending UConn's undefeated streak in 2016, they had nothing left for SC. The same script was written for Iowa yesterday. The tank was emptied Friday night.

I loved Geno's comments about being able to coach Paige for an entire season. Yes, UConn will be blessed with talent next season, but Geno unabashedly expresses his feelings about what Paige brings to the table. Like Oldude, I am anxiously awaiting the Paige Beuckers Redemption Tour next season.

I also thought it was interesting to hear Sue Bird state that Paige knows that people have forgotten about her this past season. We know that Paige is a competitor and at times, she had that look of helplessness on the bench watching the games. The fact that she is able to slowly rehab (13-month period before an official game) has me feeling confident for the upcoming season.

Most projections of who are the top incoming freshmen usually has some misses and surprises. I'd say the class of 2020 was spot on. The top 5 in order was Paige, Angel Reese, Cameron Brink, Caitlin Clark and Karmilla Cardosa. After 3 years, Brink, Cardosa and now Reese have won a NC. In 2024, there will be a new addition to this club, and I am pretty certain it won't be Caitlin Clark.

I remember that game, like it was yesterday. Plus, YouTube has that game (Indiana State vs DePaul). Great game.

 

[Surly1]

If you often watched Caitlin play, Oldude, you'd have seen Caitlin's mid-range game, her running one-handers and all sorts of other shots to complement her three-pointers. She's every bit the match for Paige there.

I'll definitely agree Paige is the better defender, not because Clark doesn't play D, but because Paige had become excellent at it before her last injury.

As for your taking Paige over Caitlin every day of the week, I hope we have the real-life opportunity to compare them again. For now, it's what Clark does every game against what we hope Paige will be able to do again... my fingers are crossed.

Deacon, I have to side with oldude on this. Caitlin is the best long-range, step-back shooter in the game. Her court vision has improved where she's equal or if not has exceeded Paige. I would state that Azzi is a better catch and shoot 3-pt shooter, but they may be due to Clark usually having the ball in her hands. However, I strongly disagree that Clark's mid-range and pull-up jumper is equal to Paige's. There is not another player close to Paige in this regard. It is aching of beauty and form. Not to mention I am shock when she misses.

The other reason I would prefer Paige over Clark is Clark's penchant for turnovers. In the last 3 games of the tourney, she forced a lot of passes that gave away possessions. This happened to be one of UConn's undoing this season. One of the major reasons that Geno always wants Paige on the court is how she protects the ball and manages the flow of the game.

The one area that I would like to see Clark improve for next year is to be more judicious in making the "mouth-drop" pass. There are times to pick your moments. However, she has so many plusses that I almost hesitate to mention finding an area of improvement for her.

Picking Paige over Clark is not a slight. I am an absolute fan of her and the difference between the two is minimal. If anything, I'd like to see a more selfish Paige and look forward to many epic battles between the two of them in the WNBA.

 

[baggerbob]

Come back in 2 years when Clark is in the WNBA, you don't continually take it to the rim there. Not even Stewie, EDD, A'ja, JJ or Parker continually do that. Four of those 5 are a 3 tier scorers.
On top of that they all play great defense, something Clark will have to learn.
Iowa just tries to outscore you, and plays limited defense.
They also have a defensive 3 second rule which would have changed the Iowa defense against South Carolina.

 

[Mandoo]

It's amazing to me how some here who had started to recognize Clark's greatness have now, because LSU shot lights out against the Hawkeyes, retreated to earlier stances, and feel Paige has an edge on Caitlin as a point guard and leader of her team.

Please tell me Clark hasn't been amazingly good at knowing when to take over games all season, against a tough schedule? Has anyone ever had a better NCAA tournament (maybe Sheryl Swoopes?)?

What Paige did vs. NC State was absolutely wonderful in '22, but it didn't touch what Caitlin just did vs. South Carolina. Clark assisted 10 baskets by her teammates, and finally carried the load down the stretch when it became apparent she had to. And yesterday, LSA simply blitzed the Hawkeyes off the court in the first half and Caitlin was famously dogged by foul trouble.

I've watched Clark play many games over the past three years and she's getting better and better at managing her own game and that of the team. As a reminder, she has been doing that with lesser quality teammates than Paige has had around her.

I saw that Clark was not a great percentage shooter. Likely better from 3 than from 2. Great on assists and rebounds, she ALWAYS has the ball.

 

[The deacon]

I saw that Clark was not a great percentage shooter. Likely better from 3 than from 2. Great on assists and rebounds, she ALWAYS has the ball.

I've stayed away from this thread for a couple of days because it had become too much Paige vs. Caitlin. Paige might be my favorite college player ever, so it hurts to keep stating the very obvious reality that she hasn't been on the court enough to even compare with Caitlin at this point. Some day again, maybe? As I've said often, I'm hoping, as we all are. But those of you who say you'd take Paige over Caitlin now aren't being logical. Perhaps Paige at her very best, but will we ever see that again? Again, we can hope...

By the way, Mandoo, Caitlin shot 39 percent from three and 47 percent overall from the floor (plus 84 percent from the free throw line). Those are very respectable numbers, especially considering the defensive pressure she usually encounters.

Enough from me...