The B1G's Wake Forest

[Pat125]

and the fact that it will be a very long time before Maryland will be scheduled by most of the league let alone be asked to rejoin.

That's unfortunate and chock full of hypocrisy. Especially since most of the long time members of the league have no problem scheduling games against 7 other teams who also recently abandoned their conference. Go figure. And even more bizarre is that a coach has been outspoken about this under the guise of tradition, while collecting a $10 million salary, and misses the blatant hypocrisy. Again, go figure.

 

[btstimpy]

Giggles? Try laugh out loud. Rutgers and Penn State will leave the B1G for a pittance that they would get as ACC members, to be with Louisville and FSU? ND must be scratching it's head after they got screwed by the ACC officials. Notre Dame realizes now that they made a huge error here and it will be very costly. They may be forced to join a conference, but I doubt that it will be the ACC. Money money money matters most to them. The will take a piece of the B1G pie long before they become full members of the ACC. That, of course, will open the door for a UConn invite to the ACC.

The financial picture would change if that list were assembled, either list really, Ldandy's or mine. Those that have seen me post here before know Rutgers wouldn't be one I'd push for due to a variety of reasons, but Ldandy had them on his list. I was trying to build it as close to that list as possible. Plus Syracuse fans seem to miss them, and a lot on this board seem to like them. So I left them on. Ldandy already is Penn State, so that's why they are there. I'm not predicting this, but it would be a good league, and the ACC is not far from it now.

Notre Dame has had more than ample opportunity to chase the Big Ten money. Much of the discussion here is about how the Big Ten is best because its model is for large public land grant factories with large graduate research labs and AAU. None of this describes Notre Dame, so why continue to suggest that they fit? Football is better in the ACC anyway or at least as good, so no reason there. I didn't see any screwing by officials either. Had they not called the blatant blocking pick FSU would have been screwed by the officials. It's unfortunate to have happened at the very end of the game, but it was the correct call. The game was close enough that ND didn't drop much in the polls. So yes I have them on this list.

 

[dayooper]

The financial picture would change if that list were assembled, either list really, Ldandy's or mine. Those that have seen me post here before know Rutgers wouldn't be one I'd push for due to a variety of reasons, but Ldandy had them on his list. I was trying to build it as close to that list as possible. Plus Syracuse fans seem to miss them, and a lot on this board seem to like them. So I left them on. Ldandy already is Penn State, so that's why they are there. I'm not predicting this, but it would be a good league, and the ACC is not far from it now.

Notre Dame has had more than ample opportunity to chase the Big Ten money. Much of the discussion here is about how the Big Ten is best because its model is for large public land grant factories with large graduate research labs and AAU. None of this describes Notre Dame, so why continue to suggest that they fit? Football is better in the ACC anyway or at least as good, so no reason there. I didn't see any screwing by officials either. Had they not called the blatant blocking pick FSU would have been screwed by the officials. It's unfortunate to have happened at the very end of the game, but it was the correct call. The game was close enough that ND didn't drop much in the polls. So yes I have them on this list.

I actually agree with you on most of this! I think the big reason that PSU and the other NE schools weren't absorbed by the ACC is that for many years, they considered themselves a southern league. The original 8 (or at least right before FSU was admitted) were UMD, UVA, UNC, NCST, Duke, Wake, Clemson, and GT, correct? Very southern flavor there. UMD being the only school that would be considered Northern (and weren't they much more Southern back in the '80's?). It seems to me that the ACC took pride in that culture and heritage. PSU/Rutgers/'Cuse really didn't fit that culture.

A league of the above (either yours or Dandy's) would have been a great league!

As far as ND goes, I completely agree they don't fit The Big10 mold. They were chased for one reason, money. I actually think Delany has stopped chasing that whale, and had so for quite a while now.

The large flagship (or flagship like) schools are important due to the fact is you graduate several thousand new fans every semester. Alumni makeup the most loyal part of your fan base (and the biggest donors as well). It doesn't make the league better, but it does make it more stable, in my opinion. Would The Big10 take on a smaller private school? If the situation was right, of course! If it made them money. JHU made the Big10 money and gave legitimacy to their lacrosse programs and better spring content for The BTN. It's a small, private school that brought the number up to 6 (the magical number for an automatic bid in to the NCAA championships). I wouldn't be surprised if a small private (or semi-private) school were brought in for hockey, if it had an elite program.

 

[btstimpy]

I actually agree with you on most of this! I think the big reason that PSU and the other NE schools weren't absorbed by the ACC is that for many years, they considered themselves a southern league. The original 8 (or at least right before FSU was admitted) were UMD, UVA, UNC, NCST, Duke, Wake, Clemson, and GT, correct? Very southern flavor there. UMD being the only school that would be considered Northern (and weren't they much more Southern back in the '80's?). It seems to me that the ACC took pride in that culture and heritage. PSU/Rutgers/'Cuse really didn't fit that culture.

A league of the above (either yours or Dandy's) would have been a great league!

As far as ND goes, I completely agree they don't fit The Big10 mold. They were chased for one reason, money. I actually think Delany has stopped chasing that whale, and had so for quite a while now.

The large flagship (or flagship like) schools are important due to the fact is you graduate several thousand new fans every semester. Alumni makeup the most loyal part of your fan base (and the biggest donors as well). It doesn't make the league better, but it does make it more stable, in my opinion. Would The Big10 take on a smaller private school? If the situation was right, of course! If it made them money. JHU made the Big10 money and gave legitimacy to their lacrosse programs and better spring content for The BTN. It's a small, private school that brought the number up to 6 (the magical number for an automatic bid in to the NCAA championships). I wouldn't be surprised if a small private (or semi-private) school were brought in for hockey, if it had an elite program.

You are correct. The heritage of the ACC is a Southern League. It was a spin off of the original Southern Conference schools east of the Appalachian Mountains. And the SEC was a spin off of the Southern Conference west and south of the Appalachian Mountains. Neither wanted to travel in the mountains anymore, so they left the mountain schools in remnants of the Southern Conference like Va Tech and West Virginia. VT tried for 50 years to join the ACC after that, and finally made it. WVU did too, and they are now making a detour in Texas and Oklahoma. Roads stunk in the 1930 to 1960 time frame in the mountains. All of the schools in both ACC/SEC were segregated until the late 60s/early 70s. UVA broke the barrier of allowing an opposing team field a black player in 1947 against Harvard. There would not have been a non-southern school in the ACC before the 1970s at all and realistically the 1980s.

All of that is ancient history now, and the north south league is working fine in the ACC on the east coast. A lot of northeastern people have migrated into the south particularly on the coast.

 

[btstimpy]

Notre Dame did the pinky promise thing with the ACC; they won't join another conference (and they won't humble themselves to the level it would take to gain entry to the Big Ten).

Well if Notre Dame's intentions are to join the Big Ten or some other conference in football, someone better get in touch with Jack Swarbrick and clue him in on that because he's out announcing a decade of football games with the ACC this afternoon. That's a whole lot of backpedaling if his true intentions are joining the Big Ten or Big XII before 2025. I wouldn't say never, but he's making it tough on himself.

http://www.und.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/102114aaa.html

 

[Calamitous]

The original 8 (or at least right before FSU was admitted) were UMD, UVA, UNC, NCST, Duke, Wake, Clemson, and GT, correct?

The original 7 were UMCP, UNC, Duke, WF, NCSU, Clemson and South Carolina, I believe. UVa joined a year or 2 after those 7 created the conference I think. In the 70s, South Carolina took issue with the ACC's stance on the student-athlete and overall academics and left to become independent. After that (in the late 70s), GT was invited. GT used to be an SEC school and may have even been an SEC charter member (but I could be wrong). It wasn't until 2005 that the ACC actually crossed the Mason-Dixon line to add BC. Before 2003, the ACC only had a southern identity.

BStimpy is right about WVU and Tech. Those 2 were left behind in the mountains due to travel concerns mostly and maybe a little bit of "hillbilly abandonment syndrome." Tech tried to get in the ACC for 50+ years and at least 6 different times that I know of. Many UConn fans loathe the ACC and I truly get it (I lived it for a long time). I just hope Husky fans don't have to wait another 40 years to get into the ACC or the B1G. To this day, I still don't think a fair chunk of the ACC schools have "accepted" Tech as a member, as we luckily slipped through the cracks after 50+ years via messy and somewhat undignified political and legal actions. UNC and Duke never signed on for Tech and still look the other way at the mere mention of us. And if not for sharing some Veterinarian and Biomedical schools with UMCP and Wake, I'm not sure they would have wanted Tech either. And don't get me started on Shalala and the backdoor deals to shut Tech out and get SU and BC in.

I think if UConn is invited to the ACC, they will be accepted like Tech was, with a few schools like BC, FSU and Clemson not being very supportive. On the flip side, I think if the B1G invites UConn, it will be more of a unilateral support without any doubters. But it will take a unified front with all 14 schools in 100% agreement before they'd invite UConn, much they way they handled the last 4 additions since 1990. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Pat125]

The original 7 were UMCP, UNC, Duke, WF, NCSU, Clemson and South Carolina, I believe. UVa joined a year or 2 after those 7 created the conference I think. In the 70s, South Carolina took issue with the ACC's stance on the student-athlete and overall academics and left to become independent. After that (in the late 70s), GT was invited. GT used to be an SEC school and may have even been an SEC charter member (but I could be wrong). It wasn't until 2005 that the ACC actually crossed the Mason-Dixon line to add BC. Before 2003, the ACC only had a southern identity.

You are right about the original 7. They all left the Southern Conference in 1953. Virginia left the Southern Conference in 1937 and became independent. They also joined with the original 7 as a non-football member, and became a full member the following year. And Georgia Tech was an SEC charter member. They went independent before becoming a member of the ACC.

 

[btstimpy]

To this day, I still don't think a fair chunk of the ACC schools have "accepted" Tech as a member, as we luckily slipped through the cracks after 50+ years via messy and somewhat undignified political and legal actions. UNC and Duke never signed on for Tech and still look the other way at the mere mention of us. And if not for sharing some Veterinarian and Biomedical schools with UMCP and Wake, I'm not sure they would have wanted Tech either. And don't get me started on Shalala and the backdoor deals to shut Tech out and get SU and BC in.

I think if UConn is invited to the ACC, they will be accepted like Tech was, with a few schools like BC, FSU and Clemson not being very supportive. On the flip side, I think if the B1G invites UConn, it will be more of a unilateral support without any doubters. But it will take a unified front with all 14 schools in 100% agreement before they'd invite UConn, much they way they handled the last 4 additions since 1990. But that's just my opinion.

Don't be overly paranoid Calamitous. You're talking about the basketball powers in the ACC. The last thing they wanted was bad basketball coming in and watering down the basketball. Seth Greenberg did an excellent job giving them competitive basketball games, and he erased all the skepticism that may have existed at time of invite. And everyone knew the football would be good, so VT is fine with all of those schools and fans now.

In UConn's case, it's not basketball that anyone worries about, it the football. It's the total opposite of VT. I think UConn will be fine as well with a little improvement in football. BC needs to get over any anxiety they have. UConn-BC would be a good rivalry in football. UConn would also find good basketball rivalries in the league.

 

[buddy]

The financial picture would change if that list were assembled, either list really, Ldandy's or mine. Those that have seen me post here before know Rutgers wouldn't be one I'd push for due to a variety of reasons, but Ldandy had them on his list. I was trying to build it as close to that list as possible. Plus Syracuse fans seem to miss them, and a lot on this board seem to like them. So I left them on. Ldandy already is Penn State, so that's why they are there. I'm not predicting this, but it would be a good league, and the ACC is not far from it now.

Notre Dame has had more than ample opportunity to chase the Big Ten money. Much of the discussion here is about how the Big Ten is best because its model is for large public land grant factories with large graduate research labs and AAU. None of this describes Notre Dame, so why continue to suggest that they fit? Football is better in the ACC anyway or at least as good, so no reason there. I didn't see any screwing by officials either. Had they not called the blatant blocking pick FSU would have been screwed by the officials. It's unfortunate to have happened at the very end of the game, but it was the correct call. The game was close enough that ND didn't drop much in the polls. So yes I have them on this list.

I was wrong about ND to the B1G. I wasn't aware that the ACC GOR has them locked up for many years to come. But no way will RU or PSU walk away from the B1G money. Situation still sucks for UConn though, and there is no love for FSU from me. They are on the level of BC in my mind.

 

[dayooper]

I was wrong about ND to the B1G. I wasn't aware that the ACC GOR has them locked up for many years to come. But no way will RU or PSU walk away from the B1G money. Situation still sucks for UConn though, and there is no love for FSU from me. They are on the level of BC in my mind.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but in defense of Stimpy, he never said they were leaving the Big10. He was saying what could have been if certain schools were invited (and accepted the invitation) to The ACC.

 

[btstimpy]

I was wrong about ND to the B1G. I wasn't aware that the ACC GOR has them locked up for many years to come. But no way will RU or PSU walk away from the B1G money. Situation still sucks for UConn though, and there is no love for FSU from me. They are on the level of BC in my mind.

I don't think FSU has any real problem with UConn. They're trying to protect the football cache of the league because football is the most important thing to them. Now that they've won another championship, they're happy as clams. UConn is a leading favorite of the basketball powers in the ACC. No question about that. If the football is at the level it was under Randy Edsall at the time of another round or even close to it, UConn is a no brainer even to FSU. Most here know that football needs to be the focus. There are multiple threads discussing it. A candidate that makes both the football and basketball parts of the league comfortable will sail through when we get to another round.

I wasn't suggesting that what I put together would be who would join the ACC. I just took LDandy's list of what could have been put together and worked with it without kicking out existing members. The ACC would have to kick out people to construct what he put together. That won't happen. The Big Ten members and Big XII member aren't looking to make a change any time soon.

 

[upstater]

I think if UConn is invited to the ACC, they will be accepted like Tech was, with a few schools like BC, FSU and Clemson not being very supportive. On the flip side, I think if the B1G invites UConn, it will be more of a unilateral support without any doubters. But it will take a unified front with all 14 schools in 100% agreement before they'd invite UConn, much they way they handled the last 4 additions since 1990. But that's just my opinion.

Of course, the B1G did not have unified support for those additions. People actually voted AGAINST PSU, for instance.

 

[Seaa Blue]

Of course, the B1G did not have unified support for those additions. People actually voted AGAINST PSU, for instance.

Because nobody really wanted to travel to Happy Valley in Winter, by bus. Now they have a pretty spiffy looking airport. One Robert Montgomery Knight was rather vocal about it. (and then there were the scheduling difficulties)

The modern day equivalent is Barry Alvarez. He will have something to say, even if it something like "well, i don't run the league"...

Rutgers might complain softly, but they're probably not in a position to sway the vote. Although I believe they will be listened to.

The Western schools may prefer something closer to them, but with Texas saying they'll pay their players whatever it takes, I think something west and south is less likely now.

 

[upstater]

Because nobody really wanted to travel to Happy Valley in Winter, by bus. Now they have a pretty spiffy looking airport. One Robert Montgomery Knight was rather vocal about it. (and then there were the scheduling difficulties)

The modern day equivalent is Barry Alvarez. He will have something to say, even if it something like "well, i don't run the league"...

Rutgers might complain softly, but they're probably not in a position to sway the vote. Although I believe they will be listened to.

The Western schools may prefer something closer to them, but with Texas saying they'll pay their players whatever it takes, I think something west and south is less likely now.

State College has had an airport since forever. You're talking about the new airport. There was always an airport there

 

[Seaa Blue]

State College has had an airport since forever. You're talking about the new airport. There was always an airport there

But not a "spiffy" one And more travel was done by bus back then.

Entrance to the Big Ten came with either an official or unofficial request to lengthen the runway (so I've heard). Well, actually I heard it was part of the deal, but I don't know if I believe it.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_1086fc2e-b30b-52fe-b975-306d1978d4a5.html

Posted: Tuesday, February 1, 1994 12:00 am

The University Park Airport, which is owned and managed by the University, is currently waiting for Federal Aviation Administration approval to lengthen its runway to accommodate bigger aircraft.

Dannaker said the FAA is studying the runway's environmental impact and a decision could come at the end of the month.

 

[Calamitous]

Seth Greenberg did an excellent job giving them competitive basketball games, and he erased all the skepticism that may have existed at time of invite.

I would say Greenberg did an ample job. Tech is easily the 15th best men's and women's basketball program in the ACC... unless Buzz Williams has a few tricks up his sleeve and Wolfe can turn the women's program around. Football is spiraling in Blacksburg right now.

Even if Tech had a top 10 bball program for the next 10 years, UNC and Duke will still regret the addition of Tech. But on the flip side, UNC and Duke would welcome UConn with open arms. It's BC, FSU and Clemson that UConn have to worry about.

 

[upstater]

I would say Greenberg did an ample job. Tech is easily the 15th best men's and women's basketball program in the ACC... unless Buzz Williams has a few tricks up his sleeve and Wolfe can turn the women's program around. Football is spiraling in Blacksburg right now.

Even if Tech had a top 10 bball program for the next 10 years, UNC and Duke will still regret the addition of Tech. But on the flip side, UNC and Duke would welcome UConn with open arms. It's BC, FSU and Clemson that UConn have to worry about.

Beamer used to pull a lot of top recruits from the mid-atlantic. Is this why Tech was not well received?

 

[AZHuskiePop]

State College has had an airport since forever. You're talking about the new airport. There was always an airport there

getting to State College was a big grip of other schools .
I think at first the flew to Pittsburgh and bussed to State College.
Pittsburgh use to be the main US Airways Hub. With both commercial and charter service all through the Midwest.
I would like to point out Connecticut's access by air is very good
5 NY airports,1 RI ,2 CT, and even a Mass airport are available.
Connecticut's location is ideal.

 

[Ldandy]

But not a "spiffy" one And more travel was done by bus back then.

Entrance to the Big Ten came with either an official or unofficial request to lengthen the runway (so I've heard). Well, actually I heard it was part of the deal, but I don't know if I believe it.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_1086fc2e-b30b-52fe-b975-306d1978d4a5.html

I'm sure that travel issues were of some concern, but ultimately I think it boiled down to the fact that people generally fear change. The B1G as it was configured at the time had gone unaltered for decades. The idea of adding an 11th team, an eastern one to boot, was not going to be universally popular. It was not universally embraced by all PSU Fans either, so the skepticism went both ways. Long term it has been mutually beneficial, but it was a major realignment tremor at the time.

 

[Kolumbo]

Don't be overly paranoid Calamitous. You're talking about the basketball powers in the ACC. The last thing they wanted was bad basketball coming in and watering down the basketball. Seth Greenberg did an excellent job giving them competitive basketball games, and he erased all the skepticism that may have existed at time of invite. And everyone knew the football would be good, so VT is fine with all of those schools and fans now.

In UConn's case, it's not basketball that anyone worries about, it the football. It's the total opposite of VT. I think UConn will be fine as well with a little improvement in football. BC needs to get over any anxiety they have. UConn-BC would be a good rivalry in football. UConn would also find good basketball rivalries in the league.

UCONN already has very good basketball rivalries, probably more so than most ACC teams (SU, PITT, UL, Duke, ND). That said, F the ACC.