The B1G's Wake Forest | The Boneyard

The B1G's Wake Forest

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The guy got the revenue situation totally reversed. Purdue had 74,628,000 in expenses and 72,379,000 in revenues. They were $2,300,000 in the hole.
 
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This is a strange thread. There is no "weak school" in the B1G.
 
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This is a strange thread. There is no "weak school" in the B1G.
Depends on what you're measuring: revenues, athletic success or academic strength
 
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It's ridiculous to even think of Purdue leaving the B1G. Things may be down for them in football and basketball lately, but the school's size, stadium size, fanbase and living alumni numbers make them VERY different from Wake. Purdue is nothing like Wake IMO. Wake is the luckiest school in the P5 and should be in the Colonial Athletic Conference. Now if there is a school in the B1G close to being like Wake, it is Northwestern without question.
 
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It's ridiculous to even think of Purdue leaving the B1G. Things may be down for them in football and basketball lately, but the school's size, stadium size, fanbase and living alumni numbers make them VERY different from Wake. Purdue is nothing like Wake IMO. Wake is the luckiest school in the P5 and should be in the Colonial Athletic Conference. Now if there is a school in the B1G close to being like Wake, it is Northwestern without question.
Relative to the enormous land grant schools in the B1G, both Purdue and Northwestern will always lag, but are in the same league--figuratively and literally. You're right, Wake's in a league of its own.
 

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Relative to the enormous land grant schools in the B1G, both Purdue and Northwestern will always lag, but are in the same league--figuratively and literally. You're right, Wake's in a league of its own.
Purdue is a land grant university and while (at 30k undergrads) it may not match up in size to Ohio St and Michigan State, they are similar in size to many B1G schools and larger than Iowa, Nebraska, and Maryland.

Purdue also has a very strong football history (they are tied with Alabama in have producing more super bowl winning QB's than any 0ther school), behind only Ohio St, Michigan, newcomers Penn St, Nebraska and (possibly) Michigan St among all B1G schools.

A decade ago many pundits were claiming that Stanford no longer belonged in big tie college football. After hiring Jim Harbaugh this was no longer a conversation. The same can happen with Purdue.
 
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Northwestern has had a couple weeks in the football rankings the past couple years. Weak Forest is just utter garbage in life. Sure they beat us in that bowl but we also beat them really bad in our infancy. Their biggest athletic achievement is the grainy footage of Chris Paul punching a dude in the penis.
 
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Wake and UConn have played three times...Wake won two, lost one.

Wake and Northwestern have played four times...split 2-2.
 
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Northwestern... but that's it

I hate giving credit to Northwestern as an Illini guy, but they're definitely not weak either on-the-field or off-the-field. They're an elite academic school with a solid athletic program that's located directly in the Chicago market. That provides a TON of value from a conference realignment perspective. In both times that the Big Ten split up divisions (the first time after Nebraska was added and then the second time with Rutgers and Maryland), Northwestern was actually the main school (outside of Ohio State and Michigan) that everyone was lobbying to be with since the Chicago market is the most critical one by far for the Big Ten. They're not a redundancy in the Big Ten because of its specific location despite the fact that Illinois is also in the league as a flagship. I'd say the same thing about, say, Miami in the ACC - that exact location is critical even though Florida State is also in that league.

I'd agree that Wake Forest is a redundancy in the ACC, though - they're a very good academic school, but it's small and the league already completely blankets its home state with UNC, NC State and Duke. Baylor in the Big 12 is another prominent example of a redundancy in a league.
 
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Back when Penn State was added I remember a TV guy asking a Big Ten dignitary if Northwestern might be asked to leave since "11" is a very odd number.

The response was something along the line of "absolutely not, never. are you serious? The Illini will be the first to go ;)". Keep in mind that the state of Northwestern athletics was much worse at the time.

I remember all this because I was much younger and had a relative attending Northwestern at the time. It forever made an impression on me as to how the Big Ten generally does business.
 
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Back when Penn State was added I remember a TV guy asking a Big Ten dignitary if Northwestern might be asked to leave since "11" is a very odd number.

The response was something along the line of "absolutely not, never. are you serious? The Illini will be the first to go ;)". Keep in mind that the state of Northwestern athletics was much worse at the time.

I remember all this because I was much younger and had a relative attending Northwestern at the time. It forever made an impression on me as to how the Big Ten generally does business.

The B1G, SEC and to some extent PAC-12 have it right. All their universities are either flagships or large land grants that have the largest living alumni numbers in their respective states. The Big XII used to be that way until they were poached and had to settle for TCU to go along with Baylor. But the ACC is the worse at knowing the value of a good fan base.

In the B1G, Northwestern is lucky because of their vicinity to Chicago. Had Notre Dame even been invited, Northwestern may have been in jeopardy of being relevant. The SEC has Vandy who isn't very relevant compared to the other 13 larger state universities, but does improve the SEC's academic profile greatly. The PAC has USC and Stanford, but both are very relevant private schools located in LA and SF areas. USC is likely more relevant than UCLA.

The ACC, on the other hand has several floundering private/semi-private school fan bases. Miami has the luck of location, otherwise they are similar to Richmond or Georgetown as far as school and campus is concerned. Miami's campus is so small that they can't even fit an on-campus football stadium there. Wake is CAA caliber. Pitt (although not private) and BC are city schools with very localized interests. UL (also not private) is growing in popularity every year and has a decent following in Kentucky, but are still 2nd fiddle to UK. The only 2 full member private schools with clout are Duke and Syracuse. Duke's clout has been built on academic reputation and basketball. Syracuse, although private, is much like a state school for upstate NY.
 
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The B1G, SEC and to some extent PAC-12 have it right. All their universities are either flagships or large land grants that have the largest living alumni numbers in their respective states. The Big XII used to be that way until they were poached and had to settle for TCU to go along with Baylor. But the ACC is the worse at knowing the value of a good fan base.

In the B1G, Northwestern is lucky because of their vicinity to Chicago. Had Notre Dame even been invited, Northwestern may have been in jeopardy of being relevant. The SEC has Vandy who isn't very relevant compared to the other 13 larger state universities, but does improve the SEC's academic profile greatly. The PAC has USC and Stanford, but both are very relevant private schools located in LA and SF areas. USC is likely more relevant than UCLA.

The ACC, on the other hand has several floundering private/semi-private school fan bases. Miami has the luck of location, otherwise they are similar to Richmond or Georgetown as far as school and campus is concerned. Miami's campus is so small that they can't even fit an on-campus football stadium there. Wake is CAA caliber. Pitt (although not private) and BC are city schools with very localized interests. UL (also not private) is growing in popularity every year and has a decent following in Kentucky, but are still 2nd fiddle to UK. The only 2 full member private schools with clout are Duke and Syracuse. Duke's clout has been built on academic reputation and basketball. Syracuse, although private, is much like a state school for upstate NY.

I think it would be fair to present the other side of the argument.

Yes, certain conferences have adopted this model and it may work best for those schools. What people overlook is that for every Ohio State or Texas there are states like Kansas, Iowa, Mississippi and even Connecticut, many of which are low in population, many without professional sports inside those states, where the state program becomes the primary focus of the sports fans in those states.

However, in the higher-populated areas, it is not necessary to have a state flagship program to be part of the conference, although some are desired. UMass, New Hampshire, Montana and Rhode Island are certainly state flagships but their sports programs, for various reasons, are not capable of competing at the highest level. Connecticut rose to prominence through their two basketball programs but it took until their membership of the Big East in order to use the competition to better themselves. The Big East, just like the ACC, had a mix of state, city and private schools. What broke them apart were the schools were unable to reconcile their differences. The ACC simply took advantage of the opportunity presented.

That other problem with going with a state flagship model is that not all state schools have the willingness to expend resources to compete, either because of choice or economic challenges. Until this year, the Mississippi schools have been laboring in obscurity because of the difficulty of competing with the Alabama schools, LSU, Florida and Georgia. It is a very poor state, so the people there can't spend like people in New York would for sports. Rutgers and Maryland have had to deal with pro sports right in their backyards, something that Nebraska never had to worry about. Even then, UNL (and RU and UMD) had to look to the Big Ten to ensure their relevance in the new college sports landscape.

What the ACC has is their position to access tens of millions of more people than conferences like the Big Ten or Big 12. That doesn't mean we should overlook programs that would improve our athletic standing. That's why I'm in favor of UConn. I only wish more within the ACC see this as I do.
 
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I think it would be fair to present the other side of the argument.

Yes, certain conferences have adopted this model and it may work best for those schools. What people overlook is that for every Ohio State or Texas there are states like Kansas, Iowa, Mississippi and even Connecticut, many of which are low in population, many without professional sports inside those states, where the state program becomes the primary focus of the sports fans in those states.

However, in the higher-populated areas, it is not necessary to have a state flagship program to be part of the conference, although some are desired. UMass, New Hampshire, Montana and Rhode Island are certainly state flagships but their sports programs, for various reasons, are not capable of competing at the highest level. Connecticut rose to prominence through their two basketball programs but it took until their membership of the Big East in order to use the competition to better themselves. The Big East, just like the ACC, had a mix of state, city and private schools. What broke them apart were the schools were unable to reconcile their differences. The ACC simply took advantage of the opportunity presented.

That other problem with going with a state flagship model is that not all state schools have the willingness to expend resources to compete, either because of choice or economic challenges. Until this year, the Mississippi schools have been laboring in obscurity because of the difficulty of competing with the Alabama schools, LSU, Florida and Georgia. It is a very poor state, so the people there can't spend like people in New York would for sports. Rutgers and Maryland have had to deal with pro sports right in their backyards, something that Nebraska never had to worry about. Even then, UNL (and RU and UMD) had to look to the Big Ten to ensure their relevance in the new college sports landscape.

What the ACC has is their position to access tens of millions of more people than conferences like the Big Ten or Big 12. That doesn't mean we should overlook programs that would improve our athletic standing. That's why I'm in favor of UConn. I only wish more within the ACC see this as I do.
That last paragraph don't ring right? The Acc has acess to tens of millions more people than the B1G?? Lol...if thei did the ACC would get paid like it with their own Network as NC/VA with 6 schools jammed into two states have to share with the rest in SEC territori so outside of NC/Va the ACC doesnt realli have much footprint with schools like Cuse/BC having weak FB interest and few live fan following in of all places Miami/GT!! Two of their so called best markets. The others are obscured in the SEC's shadow with the exception of FSU. As it is ESPN doesn't want to pai another penni for them but the B1G projections in next TV deal should at minemum double the ACC up with some figuring fifti Mill !?! Thats ACCESS!!
 
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What the ACC has is their position to access tens of millions of more people than conferences like the Big Ten or Big 12. That doesn't mean we should overlook programs that would improve our athletic standing. That's why I'm in favor of UConn. I only wish more within the ACC see this as I do.

I agree that the ACC has access to more TV sets than any conference in the country, but the reality is that there are only 9 schools (6 states + ND's national interest) that can really garner the television draw of fans on a state-wide level. FSU, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, UVa, VT, UL, SU and ND are the only schools that can pique viewership... and we don't even have ND football. Miami, GT, Wake, Duke, Pitt and BC bring no value to actual interest and viewership. Miami can garner interest once they get back to their winning ways, but right now JMU might have a better fan base.

Sure, we can tag the Miami, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Boston markets, but will anyone really be watching ACC football there? Maybe in Atlanta. Georgia belongs to the Bulldogs and Pennsylvania belongs to PSU. And we have a big gaping hole in Maryland now.

The real problem is the oversaturation of North Carolina. I'd be OK with Miami, Pitt and BC if the ACC only had the 2 public North Carolina schools and could grab UConn and WVU as replacements for Duke and Wake. BTW... losing UMCP made this conference much weaker IMO.
 
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Agree with most everthing but Cuse FB interest.....CoastalAtlantic wears ACC tinted glasses.
 

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I think it would be fair to present the other side of the argument.

Yes, certain conferences have adopted this model and it may work best for those schools. What people overlook is that for every Ohio State or Texas there are states like Kansas, Iowa, Mississippi and even Connecticut, many of which are low in population, many without professional sports inside those states, where the state program becomes the primary focus of the sports fans in those states.

Yet you look at each of those schools, they have the passion of being "The Team" for the state. Kansas and Iowa, although small states, have a passion for their teams (Kansas basketball and Iowa football). They support their teams with fervor. Same with Ole Miss and UConn. Does Pittsburgh really support Pitt? Does BC? Even GT is an somewhat of an afterthought in Atlanta. Secondary schools have to be in the public eye to be relevant in their state, flagships don't.

However, in the higher-populated areas, it is not necessary to have a state flagship program to be part of the conference, although some are desired. UMass, New Hampshire, Montana and Rhode Island are certainly state flagships but their sports programs, for various reasons, are not capable of competing at the highest level. Connecticut rose to prominence through their two basketball programs but it took until their membership of the Big East in order to use the competition to better themselves. The Big East, just like the ACC, had a mix of state, city and private schools. What broke them apart were the schools were unable to reconcile their differences. The ACC simply took advantage of the opportunity presented.

You forgot North Dakota, South Dakota, Idaho, New Mexico, Maine, Vermont, and Delaware. There is a reason that these schools are not in P5 conferences (or even FBS) because not all state flagships schools are fit to be in a major conference. Not all want to be, or just plain can't. The thing is about schools in higher populated areas, is the competition. Pro sports dominate many areas and the secondary schools in higher populated areas have to compete with much more than the flagship. The trials of college teams in NY have long been discussed. Some areas are just pro focused. Boston is a pro town. They love their Celtics, Patriots and even their Bruins. BC has to compete with those for loyalty. Loyalty is one of the greatest attributes in a fan base. Guess who makes the most loyal fans? Alumni. I still follow my alma mater and they are DII in everything but hockey. Flagship schools have a tremendous amount of loyal alumni, more so than many private schools.

Yet, I really think it's not about flagship, but flagship like. I consider VPI like a flagship school. It's not, but they have the passion and the size that a flagship school possesses. Michigan State, Auburn, Clemson, NCST, and even Louisville have the same attributes. Large, loyal alumni bases. States like Florida, Texas, and California can have multiple "flagship" schools (and do), even though only one might be labeled as such.
That other problem with going with a state flagship model is that not all state schools have the willingness to expend resources to compete, either because of choice or economic challenges. Until this year, the Mississippi schools have been laboring in obscurity because of the difficulty of competing with the Alabama schools, LSU, Florida and Georgia. It is a very poor state, so the people there can't spend like people in New York would for sports. Rutgers and Maryland have had to deal with pro sports right in their backyards, something that Nebraska never had to worry about. Even then, UNL (and RU and UMD) had to look to the Big Ten to ensure their relevance in the new college sports landscape.

Yet, The Mississippi schools HAVE become relevant (I won't say how I think they did become relevant). They have the resources to pay for top notch coaching staffs and facilities. Will Miss State keep Mullens after this year? My guess is no, but they held on to him for 5 years. Not every school is going to compete in every sport. Yet, if they have a large, strong alumni base, they will be an asset to any conference they are in. Rutgers was a risk. They don't have the athletic tradition that other large, public schools have. Yet, with their state population and large enrollment, they already are an asset. Smaller, private schools don't have that luxury.
What the ACC has is their position to access tens of millions of more people than conferences like the Big Ten or Big 12. That doesn't mean we should overlook programs that would improve our athletic standing. That's why I'm in favor of UConn. I only wish more within the ACC see this as I do.

The ACC may have access to all of those people, but how many truly want that access? I give you NC and Virginia completely. But every other state, the schools there are all shared or overshadowed by larger, more prominent schools (or in BC's case, pro sports). Florida has UF, but FSU does take a good share. Clemson has a fair amount of clout in South Carolina, but plays second fiddle to USC in a very small state. Georgia Tech is secondary to Georgia even in Tech's hometown of Atlanta (where they have to compete with The Falcons and Hawks add well). Pitt? Again, they have to compete with their beloved Steelers. 'Cuse? They have upstate NY in spades. I guess they register in NYC, but still plays second fiddle to all of the pro teams.

The ACC did what they had to do. My guess is that given the choice, The ACC would be built like the other conferences. They didn't have that choice and went the only direction they could.
 
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Yet you look at each of those schools, they have the passion of being "The Team" for the state.

This is the absolute key to college sports IMO. Whether your school is football or basketball oriented, there is a large chunk of the year when fans from a particular state follow that school (or maybe even a couple of schools). Every state has a large university that everyone follows in 1-A sports with the exception of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Massachusetts (BC is a stretch for a following), Delaware, the Dakotas, Montana and Alaska. Even Wyoming and New Mexico follow the Cowboys and Lobos within their borders with somewhat fervor.

In the ACC, there are 3 states that are covered per a media standpoint. However, they are hardly recognized due to being 2nd fiddle within their own borders or are in a pro-sports city (BC, Pitt and GT). Then you have the over saturation of North Carolina with 4 schools. The ACC would be fine with just 2 schools in that state.

The ACC would be better off today if they started the conference in the 1950s with South Carolina, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, UVa, VT, WVU and UMCP. Then in the 1970s when USC-e left, they could have added GT like they did. In the late 80s, the ACC should have added both FSU and PSU to get to a 10-team conference. Then in 2004, they could have added Miami and Syracuse to get to 12 and have their 2 private schools. Then in 2012, they could have added UConn and Rutgers to get to 14. At that point, I wonder if UMCP leaves the ACC in 2013 with this make-up. Miami, FSU, GT, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, UVa, VT, WVU, UMCP, PSU, Rutgers, Syracuse and UConn would be a very respectable conference and a better one than what exists today IMO. That conference would be on par with the other 4 P5 conferences in terms of having universities with real fans with a real following.
 
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This is the absolute key to college sports IMO. Whether your school is football or basketball oriented, there is a large chunk of the year when fans from a particular state follow that school (or maybe even a couple of schools). Every state has a large university that everyone follows in 1-A sports with the exception of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Massachusetts (BC is a stretch for a following), Delaware, the Dakotas, Montana and Alaska. Even Wyoming and New Mexico follow the Cowboys and Lobos within their borders with somewhat fervor.

In the ACC, there are 3 states that are covered per a media standpoint. However, they are hardly recognized due to being 2nd fiddle within their own borders or are in a pro-sports city (BC, Pitt and GT). Then you have the over saturation of North Carolina with 4 schools. The ACC would be fine with just 2 schools in that state.

The ACC would be better off today if they started the conference in the 1950s with South Carolina, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, UVa, VT, WVU and UMCP. Then in the 1970s when USC-e left, they could have added GT like they did. In the late 80s, the ACC should have added both FSU and PSU to get to a 10-team conference. Then in 2004, they could have added Miami and Syracuse to get to 12 and have their 2 private schools. Then in 2012, they could have added UConn and Rutgers to get to 14. At that point, I wonder if UMCP leaves the ACC in 2013 with this make-up. Miami, FSU, GT, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, UVa, VT, WVU, UMCP, PSU, Rutgers, Syracuse and UConn would be a very respectable conference and a better one than what exists today IMO. That conference would be on par with the other 4 P5 conferences in terms of having universities with real fans with a real following.

Done the right way the ACC could have blanketed the East Coast and been a great all sports conference on par with any in America. Add two more schools to go to 16 and form a pod system. It would preserve rivalries, and balance the conference.

Northeast- BC, UCONN, Syracuse, Rutgers

Mid Atlantic- Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Maryland

Mid South- Virginia, VA Tech, North Carolina, North Carolina State

Deep South- Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Miami

If The SEC wanted to give NCSU a comfortable home I would be good with Duke taking their spot.
 
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Done the right way the ACC could have blanketed the East Coast and been a great all sports conference on par with any in America. Add two more schools to go to 16 and form a pod system. It would preserve rivalries, and balance the conference.

Northeast- BC, UCONN, Syracuse, Rutgers

Mid Atlantic- Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Maryland

Mid South- Virginia, VA Tech, North Carolina, North Carolina State

Deep South- Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Miami

If The SEC wanted to give NCSU a comfortable home I would be good with Duke taking their spot.

I like this. It's a perfect geographic balance for what I'd like to see the ACC become, and the ACC already has a lot of this in place. But, we have the reality of existing members and the fact that it will be a very long time before Maryland will be scheduled by most of the league let alone be asked to rejoin. So if we tweak this a little and go to 20, it's not impossible to get to most of what you have put together. For giggles:

Northeast - BC, UCONN, Syracuse, Rutgers, Notre Dame

Mid Atlantic - Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Louisville, Navy

Mid South - Virginia, Virginia Tech, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Duke

Deep South - Wake Forest, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Miami

Navy would be another Notre Dame carrot and restore a state, but Cincinnati or Temple could be alternatives.
 
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I like this. It's a perfect geographic balance for what I'd like to see the ACC become, and the ACC already has a lot of this in place. But, we have the reality of existing members and the fact that it will be a very long time before Maryland will be scheduled by most of the league let alone be asked to rejoin. So if we tweak this a little and go to 20, it's not impossible to get to most of what you have put together. For giggles:

Northeast - BC, UCONN, Syracuse, Rutgers, Notre Dame

Mid Atlantic - Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Louisville, Navy

Mid South - Virginia, Virginia Tech, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Duke

Deep South - Wake Forest, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Miami

Navy would be another Notre Dame carrot and restore a state, but Cincinnati or Temple could be alternatives.
Giggles? Try laugh out loud. Rutgers and Penn State will leave the B1G for a pittance that they would get as ACC members, to be with Louisville and FSU? ND must be scratching it's head after they got screwed by the ACC officials. Notre Dame realizes now that they made a huge error here and it will be very costly. They may be forced to join a conference, but I doubt that it will be the ACC. Money money money matters most to them. The will take a piece of the B1G pie long before they become full members of the ACC. That, of course, will open the door for a UConn invite to the ACC.
 
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Notre Dame did the pinky promise thing with the ACC; they won't join another conference (and they won't humble themselves to the level it would take to gain entry to the Big Ten).
 
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