OT: Fifty years ago, two Hall of Famers. . .

[Kibitzer]

. . . had no idea of any "pitch count " stat.

Juan Marichal (Dodgers) hooked up with Warren Spahn (Braves) in one of the greatest duels in baseball history. They dueled for 16 innings -- no relief -- until Willie Mays hit a home run with one out in the bottom of the 16th inning.

Game announcers from Toronto discussed this classic (during Blue Jays vs. Red Sox on MLB.tv) and stated that Marichal threw 227 pitches and Spahn tossed 201 (and perhaps one too many).

When this game was played, Spahn was 42 years old. He broke into MLB briefly in 1941, then went off to WW II for three years ('42-'44), including fighting in the Battle of the Bulge.

Perhaps his most extraordinary achievement (from a very long list) was to pitch 382 complete games.

And one of the best was exactly 50 years ago. And he lost, 1-0.

 

[VAUConnFan]

I remember a game from 1969 when a young Steve Carlton struck out a record 19 New York Mets and lost the game 4-3 on two Ron Swoboda homeruns. It would have been nice if this story could have been added to this thread without mentioning Swoboda, a non Hall of Famer, but alas how does a future Hall of Famer lose a game in which he turns in such an overwhelmingly strong performance against the eventual World Series champions? Spahn, at least, got tagged by Willie Mays on his 201st pitch.

 

[msf22b]

Kib, it couldn't have been Willie, he was with the Giants

 

[msf22b]

I remember a game from 1969 when a young Steve Carlton struck out a record 19 New York Mets and lost the game 4-3 on two Ron Swoboda homeruns. It would have been nice if this story could have been added to this thread without mentioning Swoboda, a non Hall of Famer, but alas how does a future Hall of Famer lose a game in which he turns in such an overwhelmingly strong performance against the eventual World Series champions? Spahn, at least, got tagged by Willie Mays on his 201st pitch.

I remember that one well.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Kib, it couldn't have been Willie, he was with the Giants

As was Marichal.

 

[Kibitzer]

Kib, it couldn't have been Willie, he was with the Giants

Good catch. Thanks and my apology. My error, but not about the home run.

It was Willie! My error was mistakenly stating that Marichal was pitching for the Dodgers -- he was with the SF Giants and the game was played in Candlestick Park.

Juan won 25 games that season, Spahn 23. Among the sluggers in that epic game were Mays, McCovey, Aaron, and Cepeda.

And exactly 20 years earlier -- July 2, 1945 -- Carl Hubbell pitched an 18 inning shutout and won, 1-0.

Beyond category indeed!

 

[Sonny44]

The battle cry of the 1948 Boston Braves "SPAHN AND SAIN AND PRAY FOR RAIN" is one of the more famous language gems in a sports that has had many.
http://www.travel-watch.com/spahn1.htm

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Harvey Haddix was the only pitcher to take a perfect game into extra innings (or needed to). 36 straight batters up, 36 straight batters down. Haddix lost his perfect game on an error in the 13th. Two batters later Harvey lost the game on the only hit he allowed the 40 batters he faced that day.

 

[Zorro]

From the same article Sonny quoted;
A poem in The Boston Post in 1948 by sports editor Gerald Hern led to the famous phrase about the Braves' two terrific pitchers and had commentary in it about the rest of the staff:

"First we'll use Spahn, then we'll use Sain, Then an off day, followed by rain. Back will come Spahn, followed by Sain, And followed, we hope, by two days of rain.".

Actually, Vern Bickford had a better w/l record in 48 than did Spahn (11/5 vs 15/12) and also a better era (3.27 vs 3.71).

 

[Bigpetunia]

. . . had no idea of any "pitch count " stat.

Juan Marichal (Dodgers) hooked up with Warren Spahn (Braves) in one of the greatest duels in baseball history. They dueled for 16 innings -- no relief -- until Willie Mays hit a home run with one out in the bottom of the 16th inning.

Game announcers from Toronto discussed this classic (during Blue Jays vs. Red Sox on MLB.tv) and stated that Marichal threw 227 pitches and Spahn tossed 201 (and perhaps one too many).

When this game was played, Spahn was 42 years old. He broke into MLB briefly in 1941, then went off to WW II for three years ('42-'44), including fighting in the Battle of the Bulge.

Perhaps his most extraordinary achievement (from a very long list) was to pitch 382 complete games.

And one of the best was exactly 50 years ago. And he lost, 1-0.

I remember that duel well....thanks for the memory, even if you did "misremember" some of the salient details. One of the things I've never been able to fully comprehend is why pitchers, especially the likes of these two, seemed to be so much tougher than today's hurlers. In an age of seventh inning specialists, eighth inning specialists, and closers, with everyone and his brother requiring Tommy John surgery at some point or another, it's unimaginable that we'll ever witness anything like the show that both of them put on that day again. Some have opined that in those days of a half century ago, starting pitchers who routinely threw complete games could "pace" themselves better, relying as much on cunning and craftiness as on going "all out" on every pitch. Such people never got to see Juan Marichal, possibly the most underrated pitcher of all time, doing his thing with unrelenting fury. Dunno....the anatomy's the same....they just seemed tougher. Spahnnie was 42??? Wow!

 

[Zorro]

The later-to-be-great Johnny Antonelli, then 18 years old, got into four games that year for the Braves. I remember seeing him (and Tom Poholsky) pitch for the Brooke Army Medical Center in the National Baseball Congress tourney in Wichita back in 1951 or 1952.

 

[Rixxx]

Warren Spahn not only pitched 382 complete games, but he won, I believe, 363. He was also a good hitter, with home run power.

 

[ochoopsfan]

Good catch. Thanks and my apology. My error, but not about the home run.

It was Willie! My error was mistakenly stating that Marichal was pitching for the Dodgers -- he was with the SF Giants and the game was played in Candlestick Park.

Juan won 25 games that season, Spahn 23. Among the sluggers in that epic game were Mays, McCovey, Aaron, and Cepeda.

And exactly 20 years earlier -- July 2, 1945 -- Carl Hubbell pitched an 18 inning shutout and won, 1-0.

Beyond category indeed!

Dont recall what year he played but wasnt Eddie Matthews a Brave, both Milwaukee and Atlanta. He might have been another slugger in that game.

 

[grizz36]

Dont recall what year he played but wasnt Eddie Matthews a Brave, both Milwaukee and Atlanta. He might have been another slugger in that game.

Eddie Matthews was a big. fuzzy cheeked rookie for the Boston Braves in 1952, their last year in town. A bunch of us skipped high school to greet him on opening day at Braves Field, whose right field pavillion still exists today as the stands for BU's Nickerson Field. Many years later as a fat,bald Hall of Famer, Matthews is dead and here I am still hanging in there. Warren Spahn still remains today as my all-time sports hero.

 

[Zorro]

Back in the day, owners and managers had no idea about how frequent wear and tear affect the pitcher's arms, and cared less. Ballplayers were worth much less back in those days. Branch Rickey ruined many a young pitcher by insisting that he throw the overhand curve. Those iron men like Spahn and Mathewson and Old Satch and the others who threw any number of innings in a game, even in some cases throwing both ends of double-headers must have not only been incredible physical specimens, but also had really smooth deliveries.

 

[grizz36]

Back in the day, owners and managers had no idea about how frequent wear and tear affect the pitcher's arms, and cared less. Ballplayers were worth much less back in those days. Branch Rickey ruined many a young pitcher by insisting that he throw the overhand curve. Those iron men like Spahn and Mathewson and Old Satch and the others who threw any number of innings in a game, even in some cases throwing both ends of double-headers must have not only been incredible physical specimens, but also had really smooth deliveries.

Zorro, I found a book quite a few years ago at a used book sale titled, "The Diamond Appraised". It was coauthored by Craig Wright, a stats analyst for MLB and Tom House, who pitched and coached in the bigs for a number of years and who received a PHD in Humanistic Studies. They debated for many chapters over some of the conventional wisdoms accepted by both players and fans. About four of the chapters were devoted to the wear and tear of old pitchers vs modern day players. One of the interesting theories they both came up with was not "overwork" during the peak of a pitcher's career, but overworking the pitcher's arm during the early part of a young player's career. A four day rotation actually made most mature big leaguers flourish but caused too many young phenoms to die out quickly. This could also be translated today to Little Leagues, High School and other organized baseball activities. Spahn was used as a prime example because he was yanked away from the game for several of his formative years and his arm was given a chance to mature. You may not agree with all that you read, but the book is interesting reading. Try looking for it.

 

[Gus Mahler]

I don't know whether to say you guys are making me feel old, or making me feel young.

 

[Rixxx]

Ah yes, the old Milwaukee Braves: Billy Bruton, Wes Covington, Hank Aaron, Eddie Mathews, Joe Adcock, Del Crandell, Johnny Logan, Dick Groat, Warren Spahn.

 

[Zorro]

Zorro, I found a book quite a few years ago at a used book sale titled, "The Diamond Appraised". It was coauthored by Craig Wright, a stats analyst for MLB and Tom House, who pitched and coached in the bigs for a number of years and who received a PHD in Humanistic Studies. They debated for many chapters over some of the conventional wisdoms accepted by both players and fans. About four of the chapters were devoted to the wear and tear of old pitchers vs modern day players. One of the interesting theories they both came up with was not "overwork" during the peak of a pitcher's career, but overworking the pitcher's arm during the early part of a young player's career. A four day rotation actually made most mature big leaguers flourish but caused too many young phenoms to die out quickly. This could also be translated today to Little Leagues, High School and other organized baseball activities. Spahn was used as a prime example because he was yanked away from the game for several of his formative years and his arm was given a chance to mature. You may not agree with all that you read, but the book is interesting reading. Try looking for it.

Thanks, Griz. I'm not likely to come across one down here. (About as likely as coming across Capt. Kidd's treasure.) Tell you what; if you run into one up there, get it for me, let me know, and I will figure out a way to get it down here (and, of course, get you reimbursed).

 

[VAUConnFan]

Ah yes, the old Milwaukee Braves: Billy Bruton, Wes Covington, Hank Aaron, Eddie Mathews, Joe Adcock, Del Crandell, Johnny Logan, Dick Groat, Warren Spahn.

I do not remember Dick Groat playing for the Braves. A pretty good basketball player in college.

 

[Boreifs]

I do not remember Dick Groat playing for the Braves. A pretty good basketball player in college.

He didn't; played primarily for the Pirates and Cardinals. Lew Burdette can take his place on that Braves list.

 

[Rixxx]

Absolutely, Dick groat did not play for the Braves. I appreciate being corrected. How about Bob Buhl being added to the list?

 

[UcMiami]

Back in the day, owners and managers had no idea about how frequent wear and tear affect the pitcher's arms, and cared less. Ballplayers were worth much less back in those days. Branch Rickey ruined many a young pitcher by insisting that he throw the overhand curve. Those iron men like Spahn and Mathewson and Old Satch and the others who threw any number of innings in a game, even in some cases throwing both ends of double-headers must have not only been incredible physical specimens, but also had really smooth deliveries.

And players had a lot less power and control over their careers and much less financial interest in extending it as long as possible. When management signs a $60-100M guaranteed contract, they also don't want to take the chance of damaging the players arm in year one.
It is an interesting question this arm strength thing - the mound was higher, which definitely helped and the ball/hitters were less likely to leave the park. I think some of it is overuse at a young age, but it is also that the arms are not taught endurance - lots of strengthening not much endurance. I think Japanese pitchers are much more used to use and part of their issue in the US is getting accustomed to the different system. And more kids throwing curves and other 'strange motion' pitches at a young age is also thought to be difficult for proper development by over stressing tendons and joints.

 

[BlueDolphin]

This conversation reminds me of when I was in Anaheim for a convention in 1985. Dwight Gooden was scheduled to pitch against Fernando Valenzuela at Dodger Stadium. I had a feeling this might be a memorable game, so I called everyone I knew in LA in those pre-StubHub days to try to scrounge up a ticket. No luck. Turned out to be one of the largest Dodger Stadium crowds in history.

Of course they pitched a double shutout. Doc came out after 9, Fernando continued his shutout through 11, and the Mets finally won in 12.

Man, I still regret missing that game.

 

[Monte]

. . . had no idea of any "pitch count " stat.

Juan Marichal (Dodgers) hooked up with Warren Spahn (Braves) in one of the greatest duels in baseball history. They dueled for 16 innings -- no relief -- until Willie Mays hit a home run with one out in the bottom of the 16th inning.

Game announcers from Toronto discussed this classic (during Blue Jays vs. Red Sox on MLB.tv) and stated that Marichal threw 227 pitches and Spahn tossed 201 (and perhaps one too many).

When this game was played, Spahn was 42 years old. He broke into MLB briefly in 1941, then went off to WW II for three years ('42-'44), including fighting in the Battle of the Bulge.

Perhaps his most extraordinary achievement (from a very long list) was to pitch 382 complete games.

And one of the best was exactly 50 years ago. And he lost, 1-0.