OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

[SubbaBub]

I still mostly disagree about Donovan. I think he sucks the oxygen out of this team at times. I don't think we were worse off without him and frankly it was time to move on!

OK, I am rapidly becoming a JK apologist. I got that. But in this World Cup he had a good plan. Not planning for Altidore going out was a shortcoming, but on the other hand, we really don't have another player with Jozy's attributes. But overall all of his subs save one or two were brilliant. His use of Yedlin was brilliant. He used every outfield player but Mix.

I agree that he is an excellent game coach and has a real feel for what subs to make and when. I though bringing Wondo is was a given the run of play, but he was about 3 inches from being right on.

No problem with him continuing, but IMO he missed an opportunity, and the level of play from this team didn't match past years. The people who felt he might be looking ahead to 2018 were half right. The kids look to be quality, but we're exposed as inexperienced.

 

[whaler11]

The point remains Donovan stated he wasn't able/willing to give 100%. And he'd proved that in the past. (Twice in Klinsmann's eyes). Third strike you're out.

I prefer a coach who doesn't give into the Primadonnas. One who doesn't let the inmates run the asylum. You and some others seem to be ok with it.

If you can't manage or deal with primadonnas managing a soccer team seems like strange career choice.

 

[ZooCougar]

Look back in my previous posts to see how we tolerated it for Tim Chandler. The sabbatical was not the reason. Either personal preference or personal feelings, one or the other, dictated the choice. Jurgen's son sent out a tweet that day that led me to conclude one versus the other, but be that as it may, it wasn't the time off that decided the issue...

The sabbatical may have influenced those personal feelings. I'll see Landycakes playing in person later this month in KC. I'll provide a report on how he looks.

 

[ZooCougar]

If you can't manage or deal with primadonnas managing a soccer team seems like strange career choice.

If your primadonna is of the caliber as Suarez, Messi or Neymar then yes. Landon isn't that guy.

 

[UConnDan97]

I agree that he is an excellent game coach and has a real feel for what subs to make and when. I though bringing Wondo is was a given the run of play, but he was about 3 inches from being right on.

No problem with him continuing, but IMO he missed an opportunity, and the level of play from this team didn't match past years. The people who felt he might be looking ahead to 2018 were half right. The kids look to be quality, but we're exposed as inexperienced.

Spot on! And he really was terrific in deciding some impactful substitutions, it has to be said...

 

[spsct]

Nobody here except maybe the soccer haters who want the tournament to end wanted the US to fail in any way shape or form. As far as strawmen go, that's impressive even for the Boneyard.

There aren't even any 'haters'. I haven't seen a single person say that Klinsmann should be removed or things are headed in the wrong direction. That doesn't mean the guy is bulletproof, doesn't have any flaws and can't be criticized or questioned.

Like I said, it is a general problem I have and maybe I didn't state it correctly. No intention to make a strawman because I hate those as well; I just think that there are always people that are too happy to say "I told you so" when it really isn't necessary.

And 'haters' was too strong a word, but I couldn't come up with a better one. What's the right word for someone who harps on 1 or 2 negatives when there are more positives to focus on? I certainly don't think Klinsmann is perfect or above criticism, but there seems to be a lot more hand wringing going on than positive thoughts for the future. And again, I'm not aiming this at you in particular; this is a general statement.

 

[whaler11]

If your primadonna is of the caliber as Suarez, Messi or Neymar then yes. Landon isn't that guy.

Yeah because it's not relative. LD should be compared to players not in your pool.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

You're kidding yourself, and that's fine. Continue to do so.

I was chatting with players on my soccer team last night (a bunch of Portuguese players with two Chileans), and all agreed that despite being proud of the team's effort in the WC, that there would be some serious questions asked of Klinsmann had he been coaching another country's squad right now. And they're right. There would certainly be questions. And the Donovan thing would only be one of many:

1) Why switch from a 4-1-4-1 that you had been using all tourney long to the 4-3-3? And if you are going to switch, why bring Cameron in for Beckerman?
2) Why not re-adjust Bradley and Dempsey back to natural positions after the Portugal game?
3) Why clog the right wing by having Zusi and Johnson (and finally Yedlin) next to each other, but lose the midfield battle? etc.

But he's coaching for the USA, where the bar was to get out of the Group of Death. He reached that bar, and we are all glad that we did. But don't mistake the occurrence of that event with the idea that Klinsmann had a perfect cup performance, because he most certainly did not...

I can't speculate about the strategic decisions he's made because my soccer expertise is not enough to argue about such things.

But nothing about Landon Donovan's current form makes me think he's significantly better than anybody he'd be replacing, period.

I think JK's Kobe analogy was absolutely apropos. You don't pay for what an athlete once did. You pay for what you expect them to do. If you're Pirlo, you can play at 35 and be a threat. But have you seen Donovan play? Have you seen how much he's slowed down? And you think what, he's going to markedly improve the US team? I sincerely doubt it.

Every coach makes mistakes. That's just part of being a human being. But overall I like where JK's taking the team and am absolutely on board with him being the coach in the next WC.

 

[ZooCougar]

I can't speculate about the strategic decisions he's made because my soccer expertise is not enough to argue about such things.

But nothing about Landon Donovan's current form makes me think he's significantly better than anybody he'd be replacing, period.

I think JK's Kobe analogy was absolutely apropos. You don't pay for what an athlete once did. You pay for what you expect them to do. If you're Pirlo, you can play at 36 and be a threat. But have you seen Donovan play? Have you seen how much he's slowed down? And you think what, he's going to markedly improve the US team? I sincerely doubt it.

Every coach makes mistakes. That's just part of being a human being. But overall I like where JK's taking the team and am absolutely on board with him being the coach in the next WC.

This times 1000.

 

[meyers7]

You will never hear an argument from me on that point. Klinsmann is a master motivator, I believe. But I still think that the English press is giving Hodgson a much harder time than he deserves. When your top league, which just happens to be one of the top 4 leagues in the entire world, only allows you to pick from 66 of your countrymen to find a 23 person squad, then you are in trouble as a nation. That is an average of less than 4 eligible Englishmen per Premiership squad!!!

You are misrepresenting that. It said 66 players playing regularly in the Premiership. There are more than 66 English players on all the clubs. Not even sure how they came up with the "playing regularly". Approximately 32% of the players in the EPL are English according to this article. http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/24467371
Not sure how many players are in the EPL but probably at least 25 per team (that's first team, more with reserves). So 500+ which would give them around 165 to choose from (without reserves or Championship players).

 

[whaler11]

Like I said, it is a general problem I have and maybe I didn't state it correctly. No intention to make a strawman because I hate those as well; I just think that there are always people that are too happy to say "I told you so" when it really isn't necessary.

And 'haters' was too strong a word, but I couldn't come up with a better one. What's the right word for someone who harps on 1 or 2 negatives when there are more positives to focus on? I certainly don't think Klinsmann is perfect or above criticism, but there seems to be a lot more hand wringing going on than positive thoughts for the future. And again, I'm not aiming this at you in particular; this is a general statement.

I don't even think anyone is harping on anything negative. No one is claiming bringing LD would have changed the outcome. Really it's just stubborn people (certainly me included) bantering.

Subba hit on what my real frustration was with Klinsmann in this World Cup. He was much more concerned with 2018 than I would have liked him to be. It was like the draw gave him a free pass to look ahead instead of trying to maximize the 2014 performance.

I get that some people aren't bothered by that, but it drives me nuts. Hopefully in 2018, I feel stupid for feeling that way today - but 4 years is a long time.

 

[ZooCougar]

I don't even think anyone is harping on anything negative. No one is claiming bringing LD would have changed the outcome. Really it's just stubborn people (certainly me included) bantering.

Subba hit on what my real frustration was with Klinsmann in this World Cup. He was much more concerned with 2018 than I would have liked him to be. It was like the draw gave him a free pass to look ahead instead of trying to maximize the 2014 performance.

I get that some people aren't bothered by that, but it drives me nuts. Hopefully in 2018, I feel stupid for feeling that way today - but 4 years is a long time.

This game is cruel. We could have a more talented team in 2018 and get bounced in group play. Many big teams were bounced this year. We have the Gold Cup and the Confed Cup (if we qualify) coming up as well as the Olympics. There will be plenty of milestones to judge progress going forward.

 

[whaler11]

This game is cruel. We could have a more talented team in 2018 and get bounced in group play. Many big teams were bounced this year. We have the Gold Cup and the Confed Cup (if we qualify) coming up as well as the Olympics. There will be plenty of milestones to judge progress going forward.

That's why I prefer to play for today....

 

[Gurleyman]

I'm both a fan of JK and a guy who wished Donovan was on the team. My primary fear about LD not being there was losing a guy who is a set piece clinician for situations when we might need a goal. And sure enough we were amateur hour in overtime against Belgium trying to serve the ball on free kicks. Either putting them out of bounds or right to the first defender. Donovan was man of the match against Mexico last year in the 2-0 win when we qualified and he was finding people's heads on free kicks (including the game winning header from Eddie Johnson). We needed his skill of the bench in this exact scenario. And Wondo really lost us 3 chances - the obvious one, the one where Yedlin drove a cross into his shins because he wasn't ready to shoot, and he didn't follow the play when Dempsey's shot was saved and was beaten to the rebound by a Belgium player who was behind him when the shot was taken. If he anticipates a rebound and follows the play, he scores. World Cup experience matters.

Klinsmann did some things very well in this tournament. He was a good motivator and made some good decisions with personnel/tactics - moving Yedlin (a right back by trade) up into an attacking role was a stroke of genius. The risk of putting Gonzalez in at center back was huge and he played well. He had to deal with Altidore's injury ruining his Plan A. But we were a shambles tactically in the Belgium game - we put a center back in the midfield, and yet made our defense worse (38 shots) as our goalie made 16 saves. We played with nine men for a half against Italy in 2006 and didn't put our goalie under that much strain. And in most sports people look at halftime adjustments to rate a coach and Belgium cleaned our clocks after halftime. They went from controlling the game the first 45 minutes to constant jailbreaks into our box in the second 45. We were dominated by Germany and Belgium, and Algeria by contrast gave both of them a ton of problems.

But JK really didn't have the pieces to match up with the top tier teams, dealt with injuries to a team that was already thin talent-wise, and we still had a chance in every game, especially if you could swing some late game moments (Portugal finished, Dempsey missed the header vs Germany for the tie and Wondo missed the winner). Overall, I can't complain. He's not the first guy to have a game plan not work as he hoped, and you can't run subs out there to change on the fly like in other sports. And a Wondo finish changes everything. We also dominated in qualifying, won in Mexico for the first time, won a few friendlies in Europe, etc. He is clearly our man for the next cycle. And Donovan's time is past now, so we move on from here with a new generation.

 

[Gurleyman]

First, JK is not as enamored with Landon Donovan as most others. His perspective has greater breadth and depth than everyone else so I am good with that.. Secondly he is not the same productive player that he was 4 years ago, and lastly the sabbatical was bizarre. Imagine if Aaron Rodgers said that he wanted to take a season off. It was just crazy. We wouldn't tolerate that in any of our other major sports and I don't see why people are giving him a pass.

Football is a four month season. Five if you make the Super Bowl. And there's no national team, so you get half a year off. Donovan basically was playing year round for 12 years with a couple small breaks here and there. Guy named Jordan once took a sabbatical to play another sport.

Truthfully, though, I doubt JK would have played him in Brazil anyway even if he was there, so if that's the case, better to not have him around. No questions now about "why did you sub Wondo instead of Donovan" Those came two months ago and the team moved on.

 

[Kgun7]

I'm both a fan of JK and a guy who wished Donovan was on the team. My primary fear about LD not being there was losing a guy who is a set piece clinician for situations when we might need a goal. And sure enough we were amateur hour in overtime against Belgium trying to serve the ball on free kicks. Either putting them out of bounds or right to the first defender. Donovan was man of the match against Mexico last year in the 2-0 win when we qualified and he was finding people's heads on free kicks (including the game winning header from Eddie Johnson). We needed his skill of the bench in this exact scenario. And Wondo really lost us 3 chances - the obvious one, the one where Yedlin drove a cross into his shins because he wasn't ready to shoot, and he didn't follow the play when Dempsey's shot was saved and was beaten to the rebound by a Belgium player who was behind him when the shot was taken. If he anticipates a rebound and follows the play, he scores. World Cup experience matters.

Klinsmann did some things very well in this tournament. He was a good motivator and made some good decisions with personnel/tactics - moving Yedlin (a right back by trade) up into an attacking role was a stroke of genius. The risk of putting Gonzalez in at center back was huge and he played well. He had to deal with Altidore's injury ruining his Plan A. But we were a shambles tactically in the Belgium game - we put a center back in the midfield, and yet made our defense worse (38 shots) as our goalie made 16 saves. We played with nine men for a half against Italy in 2006 and didn't put our goalie under that much strain. And in most sports people look at halftime adjustments to rate a coach and Belgium cleaned our clocks after halftime. They went from controlling the game the first 45 minutes to constant jailbreaks into our box in the second 45. We were dominated by Germany and Belgium, and Algeria by contrast gave both of them a ton of problems.

But JK really didn't have the pieces to match up with the top tier teams, dealt with injuries to a team that was already thin talent-wise, and we still had a chance in every game, especially if you could swing some late game moments (Portugal finished, Dempsey missed the header vs Germany for the tie and Wondo missed the winner). Overall, I can't complain. He's not the first guy to have a game plan not work as he hoped, and you can't run subs out there to change on the fly like in other sports. And a Wondo finish changes everything. We also dominated in qualifying, won in Mexico for the first time, won a few friendlies in Europe, etc. He is clearly our man for the next cycle. And Donovan's time is past now, so we move on from here with a new generation.

To be fair ... Cameron is a right back for Stoke and is pretty active in the attack. His inclusion as a DM, positioned just in front of Besler and Gonzalez, was designed to push the Belgian attack out wide. For 90+ minutes (thanks in large part to Howard) it worked.

And I'm going on the record to say that I think Belgium is stronger than Germany right now. The 2 games cannot be compared because they were each played under totally different circumstances, but I believe Belgium is the better team.

 

[meyers7]

If you can't manage or deal with primadonnas managing a soccer team seems like strange career choice.

Not picking them is dealing with them. And to me a very good choice. You don't need someone on the team you can't trust. And I don't think Klinsmann thought he could trust Donovan after being let down twice before and it beginning to look like a 3rd time.

 

[meyers7]

Either personal preference or personal feelings, one or the other, dictated the choice. .

I agree, and I'm fine with that. Considering how Donovan had let him down before.

 

[UConnDan97]

I can't speculate about the strategic decisions he's made because my soccer expertise is not enough to argue about such things.

But nothing about Landon Donovan's current form makes me think he's significantly better than anybody he'd be replacing, period.

I think JK's Kobe analogy was absolutely apropos. You don't pay for what an athlete once did. You pay for what you expect them to do. If you're Pirlo, you can play at 35 and be a threat. But have you seen Donovan play? Have you seen how much he's slowed down? And you think what, he's going to markedly improve the US team? I sincerely doubt it.

Every coach makes mistakes. That's just part of being a human being. But overall I like where JK's taking the team and am absolutely on board with him being the coach in the next WC.

This is what you and others are struggling with: the fact that nobody here is calling for JK to be replaced! Literally, nobody. EVERYONE in this thread is saying that JK should be the coach in 2018. Period.

Now, back to the discussion at hand. LD scored 8 goals in 13 appearances most recently for the US National team, and he has 3 goals and 3 assists in 11 appearances for the LA Galaxy. Is he what he was when he was 26? No. Is he still capable of making a difference on the offensive end of the field? Absolutely. Anyone that says different is just not being objective...

 

[meyers7]

JK was talking a great deal about how at the WC the little things matter, well leaving off your most productive offensive player is more than a little things, so JK deserves some humble pie in that regard.

I don't think Donovan is our most productive offensive player and I doubt Klinsmann thought that either.

 

[UConnDan97]

You are misrepresenting that. It said 66 players playing regularly in the Premiership. There are more than 66 English players on all the clubs. Not even sure how they came up with the "playing regularly". Approximately 32% of the players in the EPL are English according to this article. http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/24467371
Not sure how many players are in the EPL but probably at least 25 per team (that's first team, more with reserves). So 500+ which would give them around 165 to choose from (without reserves or Championship players).

Yes, but do you honestly believe that 32% of the players in the Premiership is enough to expect a World Cup winning caliber of team?!? That's the question being posed here. That's why I'm saying the arguments against Hogdson are not fair. And I'm guessing that "playing regularly" denotes a certain average time period on the field, and not the bench. So I'm not misrepresenting anything. I'm clearly re-stating what someone else calculated, not what I calculated...

 

[meyers7]

I agree that he is an excellent game coach and has a real feel for what subs to make and when. I though bringing Wondo is was a given the run of play, but he was about 3 inches from being right on.

I agree, I'm not a fan of Wondo, but Klinsmann had him in there and he had the chance.

 

[whaler11]

Not picking them is dealing with them. And to me a very good choice. You don't need someone on the team you can't trust. And I don't think Klinsmann thought he could trust Donovan after being let down twice before and it beginning to look like a 3rd time.

Well we better hope the future primadonnas choose wide receiver and point guard because that strategy long term would be pretty dumb.

 

[meyers7]

I don't even think anyone is harping on anything negative. No one is claiming bringing LD would have changed the outcome. Really it's just stubborn people (certainly me included) bantering.

I wouldn't have minded him bringing Donovan. But I understand why he didn't, and am fine with that choice.

Subba hit on what my real frustration was with Klinsmann in this World Cup. He was much more concerned with 2018 than I would have liked him to be. It was like the draw gave him a free pass to look ahead instead of trying to maximize the 2014 performance.

This I disagree with. I think he/we did maximize our performance this year. I certainly didn't expect to get out of the group. And sure didn't think we'd be within a "Wondo being able to put away a volley" from getting to the Quarters.

Personally I think this is the greatest showing USA has ever had at the WC. Better than 2002 due to the opposition. Ghana, Portugal, Germany, Belgium vs Portugal, S. Korea, Poland, Mexico? Not even close.

 

[meyers7]

Yes, but do you honestly believe that 32% of the players in the Premiership is enough to expect a World Cup winning caliber of team?!? That's the question being posed here. That's why I'm saying the arguments against Hogdson are not fair. And I'm guessing that "playing regularly" denotes a certain average time period on the field, and not the bench. So I'm not misrepresenting anything. I'm clearly re-stating what someone else calculated, not what I calculated...

Yes you did misrepresent. You said 66 players to chose from. You even broke it down to 4 per team. There are way more than that. And 165 from the "best league" in the world (I know that's debatable), is pretty good. 32% is way more than Belgium has in the EPL. Way more than the USA has playing in all top leagues combined.

Getting a World Cup winning caliber team probably means having your players playing in more than just your domestic league. Even if your domestic league is one of the best.