What if... Moriah Jefferson

[tony yusef]

wins her 4th National Title, will she then catapult the Great Sue Bird has the best PG in Husky history.

 

[DaddyChoc]

nah...

 

[pppggg]

Sue Bird is regarded as the best point guard in the world. Is Mo regarded as the second best point guard in the world? As good as she is, the answer to that question and your question is "NO".

 

[Carnac]

Pardon me, but I'm biased because Moriah is my favorite player. She became my favorite player during the Baylor game. That said, If Mo wins her 4th NC, and you feel she still would not eclipse Sue Bird as the greatest guard ever to play at UConn, then please explain what else she would have to do to eclipse her...............that is is it's possible for SB to be eclipsed.

If Mo, Stewie and Tuck win a 4th NC, UConn should put up a special banner or give them their own little section on a wall recognizing their accomplishment. An accomplishment that has never been done by any other person or group of people at UConn in school history.

 

[DaddyChoc]

was Sue ever NPOY?

 

[NoelAustin]

was Sue ever NPOY?

Yes, Sue was NPOY in 2002, so she is better than Moriah....And Maya won more NPOYs than Diana, so Maya was better than Diana....But Diana won more NCs than Maya, so Diana was better than Maya....Wait, but Moriah won more NCs than Sue, so Moriah is better than Sue...

 

[Jimbo]

Sue was indeed the consensus (Wade/Naismith/AP/USBWA) player of the year in 2001-02. She also won the first three Nancy Lieberman Awards (and remains that award's only three-time winner), but somehow she was named a first-team All-American only once. I'm still trying to figure that one out.

I was a student at UConn when Sue arrived, and I've always been a huge Sue fan. Although I pretty much assumed for a long time that we couldn't again have a point guard as great as Sue was, I honestly believe that Moriah has worked her way into that conversation. True, Sue has gone on to become possibly the best point guard ever, but if we're talking solely about each player's UConn career, it might be close enough now that reasonable minds can differ. But since I'm taking nothing the rest of this season for granted (least of all a fourth straight national title), I'm content to wait a few more months until Moriah finishes scripting her brilliant college career, and see how the two of them stack up against each other then.

 

[jcoton56]

If I am Seattle, I offer lloyd straight up for the 2nd pick and take Stewie then Mo. Might even sweeten it a little.

 

[jimazee]

Pardon me, but I'm biased because Moriah is my favorite player. She became my favorite player during the Baylor game. That said, If Mo wins her 4th NC, and you feel she still would not eclipse Sue Bird as the greatest guard ever to play at UConn, then please explain what else she would have to do to eclipse her.....that is is it's possible for SB to be eclipsed.

If Mo, Stewie and Tuck win a 4th NC, UConn should put up a special banner or give them their own little section on a wall recognizing their accomplishment. An accomplishment that has never been done by any other person or group of people at UConn in school history.

An accomplishment that has never been done in our universe ... n'est-ce pas? (err, or heyna?)

BTW, even when the Huskies take number four, I won't pick between Mo and Sue. I'll let others play that fool's game

 

[Kibitzer]

This "Who is the greatest?" question is valid, but simply cannot be answered by long-time UConn fans on the basis of some stat, however meaningful.

Rebecca claims a special place in our hearts because of her major role in placing UConn on the national wcbb map. No successor can occupy that unique place.

Similarly, Diana repeatedly plunged her Husky dagger deep into the hearts of the accursed LadyVols. Maya and Stewie were both denied -- by Pat! -- any comparable opportunity to ruin her day.

The jury remains sequestered in the Bird vs. Jefferson case. Mo has not yet cut down her 4th NC net. Even if/when she does, she will need to earn three Olympic gold medals to catch up with Sue. A hung jury is likely. I will abstain.

 

[connboy77]

As great as Sue Bird was I feel Mo Jefferson is the best point guard in the history of women's basketball. This is just my opinion and others may feel differently.

 

[Sonny44]

It's an argument that cannot be won or lost. Just fun to opine.

 

[msf22b]

If I am Seattle, I offer lloyd straight up for the 2nd pick and take Stewie then Mo. Might even sweeten it a little.

Love your suggestion, brilliant

 

[tony yusef]

It's an argument that cannot be won or lost. Just fun to opine.

Exactly... this is what is great about being a fan of this program, so many great ballers. Mo is the greatest on ball defender the woman's game as ever seen and barring injuries will win 4 NC. But I still think Syosset Sue is #1, that is how good this program is...

 

[ricky]

Absolutely"jcoton56, post: 1554595, member: 5051"]If I am Seattle, I offer lloyd straight up for the 2nd pick and take Stewie then Mo. Might even sweeten it a little.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. Those two on that team with KML OMG. WNBA crown is theirs.

 

[Waquoit]

wins her 4th National Title, will she then catapult the Great Sue Bird has the best PG in Husky history.

I'm not sure this is an unreasonable assertion. Mo keeps building her game, keeps improving. Shooting 40% from 3, 87% from the stripe, tenacious D, can pass with both hands. Tremendous player.

 

[HuskyBandDad]

Yes, Sue was NPOY in 2002, so she is better than Moriah....And Maya won more NPOYs than Diana, so Maya was better than Diana....But Diana won more NCs than Maya, so Diana was better than Maya....Wait, but Moriah won more NCs than Sue, so Moriah is better than Sue...

Just go with that they are all great. End of story.

 

[Zorro]

I thought that surely Kibs would have pointed out by now that comparisons are odious. Could Joe Louis have whupped Rocky Marciano? Could either of them have whupped Muhammed Ali? Who the hell knows? MoJet's stats are better than Sue's, but Sue is Sue. They are both great and we have been very lucky to have had both of them! Duh!

 

[Roundball fan]

If I am Seattle, I offer lloyd straight up for the 2nd pick and take Stewie then Mo. Might even sweeten it a little.

I never would of thought of that. Great idea, we can only hope. As for who is the best I don't think it is fair to compare players who have played in different era's. They are both great guards and I would take which ever one you gave me.

 

[PacoSwede]

If I am Seattle, I offer lloyd straight up for the 2nd pick and take Stewie then Mo. Might even sweeten it a little.

Seattle should be so lucky. No way anybody would give away a chance to draft Mo for Loyd. Straight up no less. No, Storm would need to sweeten it a LOT.

 

[UcMiami]

It is now almost fourteen years since Sue played her last game in a Uconn uniform and it is hard at that remove to separate her Uconn career from her professional career - her great success with the USA national team in Olympics and WCs, her success in Seattle and her WNBA titles, and her success overseas in European play all add to and get mixed in with our memories of the three + years at Uconn to create arguably the best PG to ever play women's basketball.

Added to that, those who have followed Uconn WCBB from the late 1990s when Sue arrived have also changed - we have generally a greater understanding of the nuances of the game, and of what goes into the Uconn system because we have been taught by the greatest coach in the women's game. And that coach and his staff have also not remained static, but have evolved and learned and become better. And the raw material he works with, the players, has changed. And the competitive environment has changed.

The comparison is further complicated by the fact that much of what a PG does is not measurable by individual statistics but by team results - they need to score and score efficiently, but the points per game is not that important. They need to create assists and limit turnovers, but as long as they make the right passes it doesn't matter if that player shoots and scores or misses, or makes a further pass to get the assist themselves. It is nice for them to get rebounds and steals, but as long as someone on their team is getting the rebound and their 'responsibility' on the block-out isn't they have done their job and as long as the team defense is properly organized it isn't essential they rack up steals. The grading of PGs is more subjective than probably any other position on the court.

With all that said - here is my take:
Sue and Moriah both came into incredibly talented teams with exceptional recruiting classes - Sue with four other highly ranked players that quickly became three due to chronic injures, Moriah with two others. That is important because it meant that they developed in tandem with their classmates all of whom were or will be very high draft picks. And they were surrounded with an already highly functional team of experienced players to whom they could look for guidance and support. And the recruiting after they arrived remained strong so as they gained experience their older teammates were replaced on graduation with younger very talented and motivated players.
And the teams they played on and led are also very similar - they were/are all very successful and put up great statistics for efficiency and dominance, so the first job of a PG has been performed to very high standards. The teams were very well organized and efficient on offense and defense being at the top of NCAA statistics for MOV, shooting percentages, defensive shooting percentages, assists, TOs. The one significant difference is Sue came into a team that immediately needed her as its PG and Moriah didn't - for her first year she shared duties with Bria and Caroline and her second year with Bria.

Statistically, Sue's first year was lost, and Moriah's was a struggle and in looking at the eight games Sue did play, you could guess she would have struggled somewhat as well. And while Sue didn't play most of that freshman year she was not dormant - she was learning and growing in understanding of the Uconn system, just not physically doing it, so it served the freshman learning process, while hurting her raw stats and probably helping her career percentage and per game stats.

1. Sue was a better 3 point shooter and more prolific, but Moriah is not far behind. Last year she ended in a statistical dead heat on 3 point shooting percentage to Sue's best year both rounding to 50%. If you threw out Moriah's freshman 3 point statistics (as Sue's in effect were), they would probably finish fairly close for career percentage.

2. Moriah will end her career with a much better field goal percentage - Sue shot twos at only a slightly better percentage than her threes, topping out at .505 her senior year and for her career .481. Moriah shot .587 last year and through three years is at .547 and is likely to end her career in the top ten (and as the highest ever guard) in field goal percentage - a reflection on Sue's pull up jumper vs Moriah's ability to get to the rim and propensity for break away layups.

3. Sue will probably end up with a slightly higher points per game average though Moriah has a little advantage when looking at their last three years. Moriah has already passed Sue in total points - both reflections of the advantage of not really having a freshman year for Sue and Moriah having her struggles throughout a full freshman season.

4. Sue will lead in assists per game, Moriah in total assists. Both reflections of the different freshman years.

5. Moriah will have a significantly higher A/TO ratio, but they will end #1 and #2 for their careers. (I think a reflection of a slight changes in coaching philosophy in the intervening years between the two.)

6. Moriah will have significantly better steals per game and total steals but Sue still ranks #12 all time so was not a slouch in that regard.

7. Rebounds and Blocks - Not really significant for either player - they will finish with similar per game totals in rebounds 2.8 for Sue, 2.6 for Moriah to date. 15 blocks for Sue, 17 for Moriah to date.

Finally (and sorry this is so long, but I love both players and this process ) In Uconn career comparison, I give the edge to Moriah. She is a better defender, she is more efficient as a shooter and a passer, and they were both great floor generals - their teams' performances were equally magnificent. Sue had more 'clutch' moments I think, but she also had more moments requiring 'clutch'. Sue had more awards than Moriah will get, but that is as much a reflection of teammates, competition, and voters as it is of actual performance. Moriah will end with more NCs but that too is partly a reflection of teammates, injuries, and competition.
In total career - Moriah has a daunting task to come anywhere near the professional accomplishments that Sue has achieved.

 

[UcMiami]

Seattle should be so lucky. No way anybody would give away a chance to draft Mo for Loyd. Straight up no less. No, Storm would need to sweeten it a LOT.

Disagree - it depends on what you need most - Loyd will be a prolific scorer in the WNBA, Moriah should be a great PG with moderate scoring success - fill different needs for teams - and some of the lottery picks are not really in the market for a PG or a guard for that matter.

 

[Carnac]

I asked an honest question that generated a lot of interesting and introspective responses.....................
Jimazee said "I won't pick between Mo and Sue. I'll let others play that fool's game"

Kibitzer said: " The question is valid, but simply cannot be answered by long-time UConn fans on the basis of some stat, however meaningful. The jury remains sequestered in the Bird vs. Jefferson case. Mo has not yet cut down her 4th NC net. Even if/when she does, she will need to earn three Olympic gold medals to catch up with Sue. A hung jury is likely. I will abstain".

connboy77 said: "As great as Sue Bird was I feel Mo Jefferson is the best point guard in the history of women's basketball. This is just my opinion and others may feel differently".

And finally, HuskyBand Dad said: "Just go with that they are all great. End of story.

Questions of this nature will usually create a chasm that will cause division in a fan base as illustrated by some of the responses here. This is the type of question that cannot have a wrong or right answer. Those on either side of the argument can (in their mind) give chapter and verse why their argument is sound and factually correct.

This is a question that the UConn fan base will never be in total agreement on. Fans with an opinion on this issue have a very strong opinion, and won't be easily moved. International play aside, I never saw Sue "lock down" an opponent like Moriah has on several occasions (Tiffany Mitchell (USC), Michaela Mabrey (ND), Kelsey Mitchell (OSU), and so on; so much so, she rendered them almost scoreless once she was assigned to guard them.

Sue could do and did a lot of things, but I don't recall her doing that. Sue never had the quickness to keep guards with "cat quick" speed in front of her like Moriah does. As we all know, quickness is not something you teach. A player either has it or they don't. We (posters) could go back and forth on this topic all week, to no avail. No opinions would be changed.

I'll join HuskyBandDad in saying that just go with they are both great, and leave it at that.

 

[Carnac]

It is now almost fourteen years since Sue played her last game in a Uconn uniform and it is hard at that remove to separate her Uconn career from her professional career - her great success with the USA national team in Olympics and WCs, her success in Seattle and her WNBA titles, and her success overseas in European play all add to and get mixed in with our memories of the three + years at Uconn to create arguably the best PG to ever play women's basketball.

Added to that, those who have followed Uconn WCBB from the late 1990s when Sue arrived have also changed - we have generally a greater understanding of the nuances of the game, and of what goes into the Uconn system because we have been taught by the greatest coach in the women's game. And that coach and his staff have also not remained static, but have evolved and learned and become better. And the raw material he works with, the players, has changed. And the competitive environment has changed.

The comparison is further complicated by the fact that much of what a PG does is not measurable by individual statistics but by team results - they need to score and score efficiently, but the points per game is not that important. They need to create assists and limit turnovers, but as long as they make the right passes it doesn't matter if that player shoots and scores or misses, or makes a further pass to get the assist themselves. It is nice for them to get rebounds and steals, but as long as someone on their team is getting the rebound and their 'responsibility' on the block-out isn't they have done their job and as long as the team defense is properly organized it isn't essential they rack up steals. The grading of PGs is more subjective than probably any other position on the court.

With all that said - here is my take:
Sue and Moriah both came into incredibly talented teams with exceptional recruiting classes - Sue with four other highly ranked players that quickly became three due to chronic injures, Moriah with two others. That is important because it meant that they developed in tandem with their classmates all of whom were or will be very high draft picks. And they were surrounded with an already highly functional team of experienced players to whom they could look for guidance and support. And the recruiting after they arrived remained strong so as they gained experience their older teammates were replaced on graduation with younger very talented and motivated players.
And the teams they played on and led are also very similar - they were/are all very successful and put up great statistics for efficiency and dominance, so the first job of a PG has been performed to very high standards. The teams were very well organized and efficient on offense and defense being at the top of NCAA statistics for MOV, shooting percentages, defensive shooting percentages, assists, TOs. The one significant difference is Sue came into a team that immediately needed her as its PG and Moriah didn't - for her first year she shared duties with Bria and Caroline and her second year with Bria.

Statistically, Sue's first year was lost, and Moriah's was a struggle and in looking at the eight games Sue did play, you could guess she would have struggled somewhat as well. And while Sue didn't play most of that freshman year she was not dormant - she was learning and growing in understanding of the Uconn system, just not physically doing it, so it served the freshman learning process, while hurting her raw stats and probably helping her career percentage and per game stats.

1. Sue was a better 3 point shooter and more prolific, but Moriah is not far behind. Last year she ended in a statistical dead heat on 3 point shooting percentage to Sue's best year both rounding to 50%. If you threw out Moriah's freshman 3 point statistics (as Sue's in effect were), they would probably finish fairly close for career percentage.

2. Moriah will end her career with a much better field goal percentage - Sue shot twos at only a slightly better percentage than her threes, topping out at .505 her senior year and for her career .481. Moriah shot .587 last year and through three years is at .547 and is likely to end her career in the top ten (and as the highest ever guard) in field goal percentage - a reflection on Sue's pull up jumper vs Moriah's ability to get to the rim and propensity for break away layups.

3. Sue will probably end up with a slightly higher points per game average though Moriah has a little advantage when looking at their last three years. Moriah has already passed Sue in total points - both reflections of the advantage of not really having a freshman year for Sue and Moriah having her struggles throughout a full freshman season.

4. Sue will lead in assists per game, Moriah in total assists. Both reflections of the different freshman years.

5. Moriah will have a significantly higher A/TO ratio, but they will end #1 and #2 for their careers. (I think a reflection of a slight changes in coaching philosophy in the intervening years between the two.)

6. Moriah will have significantly better steals per game and total steals but Sue still ranks #12 all time so was not a slouch in that regard.

7. Rebounds and Blocks - Not really significant for either player - they will finish with similar per game totals in rebounds 2.8 for Sue, 2.6 for Moriah to date. 15 blocks for Sue, 17 for Moriah to date.

Finally (and sorry this is so long, but I love both players and this process ) In Uconn career comparison, I give the edge to Moriah. She is a better defender, she is more efficient as a shooter and a passer, and they were both great floor generals - their teams' performances were equally magnificent. Sue had more 'clutch' moments I think, but she also had more moments requiring 'clutch'. Sue had more awards than Moriah will get, but that is as much a reflection of teammates, competition, and voters as it is of actual performance. Moriah will end with more NCs but that too is partly a reflection of teammates, injuries, and competition.
In total career - Moriah has a daunting task to come anywhere near the professional accomplishments that Sue has achieved.

Thanks UcMiami, for this excellent post!!

 

[Waquoit]

No way anybody would give away a chance to draft Mo for Loyd. Straight up no less. No, Storm would need to sweeten it a LOT.

You never know. The Sun gave Tina Charles away for virtually nothing.