Players or the system?

[ju6381]

Do the players need to be “great” if the system is great?

Yes, refer to Princeton with Pete Carril. Great system but players not good enough to compete for championships.

 

[Mdoggie]

Yes, refer to Princeton with Pete Carril. Great system but players not good enough to compete for championships.

Point taken

 

[Steelerone]

Yes, refer to Princeton with Pete Carril. Great system but players not good enough to compete for championships.

Right on point Ju. I loved watching the Princeton team when any network had the courage to schedule them. The precision of their movements as a team was just so enjoyable to watch. Pete was John Wooden without the talent.

 

[Monte]

You have to have GOOD, DEVOTED players. I always think of Casey Stengel and the great Yankee teams of the late 1940's and 1950's. Year after year, Casey managed them to terrific records. ...........THEN, in 1962 Casey managed the Mets to the worst record in baseball history(120 losses). He didn't have the PLAYERS!
I am sure that many of you who played sports saw this happening on many different levels.
Recruiting the right players is HUGE on the college level.

 

[Carnac]

Geno has a Winning System. His system is team orientated and he does not tolerate mediocrity. Yes you need the players. Those players have to be coachable, have the right attitiude, the want to, and work ethic. Nothing is easy. If it were easy everybody would be great. You cant teach a dud to be a stud. Geno has a process of breaking down the bad habits and rebuilding the the right habits putting the Fun back in the fundementals. Look at all the former UConn players who play pro ball many of which werent AA's or starters. Geno's program is one of personal growth with a basketball mentallity attached to it.

There is proven value in Geno's system. Most if not all of the coaches in the WNBA covet UConn players. THAT (and the 11 championships) is the best evidence that his system works. Most of his seniors are high first round draft choices in the W. Cheryl Reeve (Lynx head coach) says that UConn rookies coming into the league are "plug n play". They are coachable, they learn fast, and they have a winning attitude, and they come in knowing how to "read and react", because that is what Geno teaches.

Example: Crystal and Napheesa lead the Lynx to a 88-79 victory over the Atlanta Dream this evening (Aug 28). Crystal had a game high 23, Collier had a double double with 19/12. The only two UConn alums on the roster, and they're paying BIG TIME dividends.

Geno's record and his former player's success at the pro level speak for themselves. If Geno's system is not all that great, why are coaches still, after all these years, requesting to attend his practices? I'll hang up and listen. One more thing, Mars Blackmon was wrong. It's NOT the shoes.

 

[Steelerone]

You have to have GOOD, DEVOTED players. I always think of Casey Stengel and the great Yankee teams of the late 1940's and 1950's. Year after year, Casey managed them to terrific records. ...........THEN, in 1962 Casey managed the Mets to the worst record in baseball history(120 losses). He didn't have the PLAYERS!
I am sure that many of you who played sports saw this happening on many different levels.
Recruiting the right players is HUGE on the college level.

Monte, great point. Stengel was also a manager earlier in his career and had a losing record. With the players he had in the fifties Wiley Coyote could have won. How many times have you seen someone go from a losing team with terrible players to a contender or championship team or visa versa. Especially in baseball. I think that football may be the major sport where the person coaching actually makes a difference.

 

[Bigboote]

There is proven value in Geno's system. Most if not all of the coaches in the WNBA covet UConn players. THAT (and the 11 championships) is the best evidence that his system works. Most of his seniors are high first round draft choices in the W. Cheryl Reeve (Lynx head coach) says that UConn rookies coming into the league are "plug n play". They are coachable, they learn fast, and they have a winning attitude, and they come in knowing how to "read and react", because that what Geno teaches. Geno's record and his former player's success at the pro level speak for themselves.

I was thinking sort of the same thing. A lot of coaches teach plays; Geno teaches players HOW TO play. Not many plays per se, but sets where they're taught to read and react.

As to the OP: It is both, but I think the system is the egg and the players are the chickens. Or is it vice-versa? The system developed by the coaches attracts the players, the coaches recruit and select the players. But in the end, it's the players who actually have to play the games.

 

[JellyBean]

Would a player like Diamond Deshields have worked within Genos system?

Possible. A lot depends on that first meeting with the coach and going from there. Seeing where her head was at and if she was willing to play within a set role on the team.

 

[JellyBean]

It is the system. Geno has even said at some of his coaching clinics, it is the system and getting players to play within that system or style of play.

 

[southofnorth]

@southofnorth mentions that one of the reasons for UConn's sustain Ed success is the combination of Geno the people person and CD the disciplinarian. I have always seen it the opposite way, with Geno the one who gets in faces and pushes buttons while DC was the one to step in after Geno was done to give a pat and an encouraging words. What say you, who is the good cop and who is the bad cop in this duo?

Depends on the situation really, but I think Geno is the button-pusher to elicit a reaction and CD is the one making sure everyone is living up to the standards (dress codes, cheering on teammates, etc.). It seems like both encourage the players, but also provide feedback as needed.

 

[hoophuskee]

IMO no doubt it's both.

In regards to the coach, it's not that they have a secret formula - it's many things such as that they have a certain style they want their team to play to. For example, some coaches didn't care if you commit turnovers as long as you are aggressive. Other coaches hate any turnovers. Some coaches press to push tempo others press to slow the game down.

Years ago -- when the NCAA was changing the rules for more offense with a shot clock, Rollie Massmino said he was going to change his style to "chuck and duck." Before that he was known as a master half-court tactician coach. At the time Jim Valvano was doing commentary for ESPN. When he heard that he literally laughed on air. He said to paraphrase- "What do you think is going to happen in a close game in which his team loses a tight game while he watches his team was taking bad/too quick of shots at the end which cost his team the game?" He answered "The next practice and games going forward he's going to go back to what makes him comfortable. That's slow the game down."

Geno's style doesn't wane. As I'm sure other coaches don't either. But as I've mentioned before anyone can go back and watch the game between Baylor and UCONN during 11-12 season. At halftime Geno was asked what's key to to the game in the 2nd half. He said it's who can find ways to score will win. While Lobo said she asked Kim Mulkey when she came out tunnel at halftime -Kim was told of Geno's comment and disagreed. She felt the team that played the best defense would win. That's style. That's coaching to a certain style the coach feels comfortable playing to.

Many top-tier recruits wan to run. What did DT say why she loved UCONN? One reason I thought I read was that she loved the Lakers and UCONN played like it was "showtime" just like the Lakers. How many on here (and I'm sure many coaches) would've put Maya Moore at SF and saw to it they would have gotten a PF so "REBOUNDING" would be so important? Instead UCONN built their team with more guards and wings so they could allow Maya better passing so she can more easily score. And the superstar recruits coming up see that. See that he gives players the best chance to score and be efficient while playing uptempo. Superstars love that usually. That's coaching too along with the player needed to execute it.

 

[willtalk]

Good players with the competition that has existed for some time now, will only take you so far. The same can be said for a good system. The key with Uconn is that one reinforces he other. Part of Geno's system involves making sure that he gets the right players. So I would say it is both.

 

[HopJim]

Geno has a Winning System. His system is team orientated and he does not tolerate mediocrity. Yes you need the players. Those players have to be coachable, have the right attitiude, the want to, and work ethic. Nothing is easy. If it were easy everybody would be great. You cant teach a dud to be a stud. Geno has a process of breaking down the bad habits and rebuilding the the right habits putting the Fun back in the fundementals. Look at all the former UConn players who play pro ball many of which werent AA's or starters. Geno's program is one of personal growth with a basketball mentallity attached to it.

While Geno is an exceptional recruiter, its his focus on the intangibles that have made UConn a champion. He has the ability to understand what players are self motivated, perform under pressure, and are willing to invest the physical and mental effort needed to be a champion.

 

[UcMiami]

Great responses all, and Princeton did win one for Pete (and NIT back when it meant a little more than it does now.)

1. Forget for a moment the championships and think about the undefeated seasons. SIX - the next closest women's coach has 1. That is not just great players, Pat at TN used to collect 10-12 great players on her teams, but she could only finish one season undefeated. Geno, CD and co. teach respect for the game, respect for the opponent, and respect for the fans - demanding commitment towards excellence at all times, on and off the court, practice, travel, games, dining, and walking to class.

2. Development - there are only a few exceptional players in women's college basketball and only a few who have played at Uconn. Geno has taking a whole bunch of those other talented players and developed them into top flight college players and consummate professional players. And he has taken the few exceptional players and truly challenged them not to settle for being better than all their peers, but demanded they continue to grow their skills in a way no other women's coach has done.

3. Player recruiting - the coaching staff has almost always remained disciplined in who they recruit and who they pass up, and talent is only a minor part of what they evaluate. And they take input from current players which creates buy-in for the team before the recruit arrives for the first summer of school. The older players are thus forced to become responsible for the recruits - he can always say 'you said I should offer _____, well now you better help me fix her!'

4. Geno, CD, and whoever are the current assistants (and those assistants are typically long term) work as a team - CD talked about how if she or Geno was riding a player hard, the other would take on the supportive role for that player so no player ever walked out of the building feeling unsupported. And they passed the same philosophy to the assistants. It is an intense environment, and hard for the players, and they recognize that and the need for someone to be supportive.

5. It is not a static environment, nor a static system - it changes every year and adapts to the players available and their personalities. The expectations for every player are adjusted constantly, and the methods of working toward those expectations are tailored to each individual. There is often a 'precious' player who seems to do no wrong and there is often a 'worst player' at her position EVER - but those players are only ever identified when the player herself can handle those expectation and will respond positively to that motivation.

6. This is college sports, and it is important to recognize that the athletes enter really as children and exit as adults. It is a huge period of change and development not just physically but mentally as well. Geno, CD, and co. are not just coaching and teaching basketball, they are also providing guidance and structure during this transformation, and they are very good at that aspect of the job as well.

You can't win without talent so certainly the recruiting is essential, but you can develop talent, and you can put that talent into positions to excel, and you can build and develop teams around that talent to win. So coaching is also essential. Chicken and Egg. But unlike the professional sports, college is a constantly regenerating cast of characters on a four year sojourn so you do not have the TB vs. BB debate of the New England Patriots. Geno and CD are the only constants through three decade and their program has endured while the other members of the organization have come and gone.

 

[hoopsfan22]

It's the players. Coaching has something to do with it of course, but it's by and large the quality of players. Even Geno readily admits there are two kinds of coaches: coaches that get great players, and coaches that are unemployed.

 

[hoophuskee]

It's the players. Coaching has something to do with it of course, but it's by and large the quality of players. Even Geno readily admits there are two kinds of coaches: coaches that get great players, and coaches that are unemployed.

And why do coaches get great players? And why is it some of them seem to get them every year? It's all luck every year Geno gets great players?

 

[UConnCat]

A couple of Geno quotes:

"Your philosophy in basketball will get you to a certain point. After that, you need individuals to take you to the next step."

"This time of year, it's the individual player that makes the difference.The things you do as a program get you to this point. Then individuals decide the outcome of the games."

 

[hoophuskee]

A couple of Geno quotes:

"Your philosophy in basketball will get you to a certain point. After that, you need individuals to take you to the next step."

"This time of year, it's the individual player that makes the difference.The things you do as a program get you to this point. Then individuals decide the outcome of the games."

IMO this nails it from the horse's mouth. Geno needs players to win. And he gets players in part because his philosophy is the type of style that super players love to play in. To be as consistent as UCONN has - to get the players as consistently as non-P5 Conference UCONN has been getting-- it's more than "just the players."

 

[Mike_In_Storrs]

It is about getting the right players for the system....Not necessarily getting the "greatest players"

A perfect example would be Diana Taurasi and her final 2 championships. Yes she was great but she had a team of role players at best that did their jobs.....So this is a case of the right players (ie: team players) with one common goal...Winning.

I saw a documentary about Tom Landry once and he always said it was the system....Not Roger Staubach. But filling the system with the right parts.

 

[Mdoggie]

It is getting the right players for the "system".....That is why it works....Not necessarily getting the "best players"

Perfect example would be Fee

How is Fee the perfect example?

 

[Mike_In_Storrs]

How is Fee the perfect example?

Why don't you read my other post instead of trying to correct my spelling on a post that I didn't realize got posted...Because I hit the wrong key by mistake.....fee was supposed to be DEE. And I hit post without finishing my statement..

Another reason I don't come here often and post...Every board has someone like you waiting to explode on a spelling error....

 

[Mdoggie]

Why don't you read my other post instead of trying to correct my spelling on a post that I didn't realize got posted...Because I hit the wrong key by mistake.....fee was supposed to be DEE. And I hit post without finishing my statement..

Another reason I don't come here often and post...Every board has someone like you waiting to explode on a spelling error....

I thought you were referring to Phee. Relax. Every board has a paranoid like you lol I am that last person to worry about someone’s spelling. Mine is horrible

 

[bballnut90]

What makes UConn great year after year? Your thoughts? We’ve seen great players at other universities over the years yet they have had limited success. UConn remains the standard.

It's both. Geno's system is obviously very developed and he targets kids who will thrive in a pass heavy high motion offense. Players are unselfish and hard workers. He pushes his players hard and ultimately is as good as anyone at pushing buttons leading to development and getting them ready for the pros.

On top of that, the talent level he gets is just flat out a step above anyone else in the country. More often than not, the top recruit in the country chooses to attend UCONN. The last time UCONN didn't have a former HS POY/#1 recruit in the lineup was in 1991, when Rebecca Lobo was a senior in HS. The rest of the starting 5 is typically filled with many top 5-10 kids. Even this last year which felt like a down year talent wise had two #1 recruits, a #3 recruit and a #5 recruit in the starting 5. No other program aside from Tennessee in the 90s/00s has had comparable sustained talent for more than 1-2 years when you look at HS recruit rankings.

It's been a perfect storm of a fantastic coach and an overload of talent.

 

[Mdoggie]

It's both. Geno's system is obviously very developed and he targets kids who will thrive in a pass heavy high motion offense. Players are unselfish and hard workers. He pushes his players hard and ultimately is as good as anyone at pushing buttons leading to development and getting them ready for the pros.

On top of that, the talent level he gets is just flat out a step above anyone else in the country. More often than not, the top recruit in the country chooses to attend UCONN. The last time UCONN didn't have a former HS POY/#1 recruit in the lineup was in 1991, when Rebecca Lobo was a senior in HS. The rest of the starting 5 is typically filled with many top 5-10 kids. Even this last year which felt like a down year talent wise had two #1 recruits, a #3 recruit and a #5 recruit in the starting 5. No other program aside from Tennessee in the 90s/00s has had comparable sustained talent for more than 1-2 years when you look at HS recruit rankings.

It's been a perfect storm of a fantastic coach and an overload of talent.

No spelling errors lol.

 

[Mike_In_Storrs]

No spelling errors lol.

Lol