OT - Sixers

[Dogdeacon]

Are there STILL trust the process believers out there?! Or are those folks now Sam Hinkie truthers that think it WOULD have worked out, but the Colangelo's messed it up?
They were widely panned for picking injured players and big men in 3 straight drafts (Noel, Embid, Okafor), 2 of whom were in the injury parade (double jeopardy) and now their over-stock of big men and non-stop peddling of Noel and JOkafor results in a lackluster trade for what's likely to be two SECOND round picks, essentially they got a salary dump and a bag of rocks. Only silver lining is Noel was pre-purposeful tanking. But the Noel trade confirms 1000% that Noel was a terrible pick exacerbated by their future selections.

And today they announced Ben Simmons won't play this year = likely they also sit Embid who hasn't played since January and start tank #4 in absurd ploy to capture Sixer's rights to Lakers pick (protected if its top-3, so if Sixers are worse Lakers less likely to be top-3).

At this point I contend they need to actually win the title just to even the slate with the years of purposeful terrible-ness. And even if Embid becomes healthy, Simmons plays and is good and they return to trying to win next year they are seasons away from contending. It is unconscionable and I cannot believe that people continue to buy tickets and the league hasn't done something more drastic than inserting the Colangelo's to end the 76ers interminable tanking. Owners should be forced to sell ala Sterling.

 

[nomar]

There was a lot of debate a year ago about whether the Sixers or Celtics were in the better position.

Embiid is great and all, but I'll take the Celtics' position, thank you.

How do you draft 3 guys who have to sit out their rookie year? It's just weird.

 

[methodology]

You can't tell an owner of a business how to run his business. The consumers can decide to buy tickets or not and if they don't then the owner will either sell or change the course

 

[JSM1970]

If the C's got #1 they would have taken Simmons in a heart beat.

I agree in general, but man I wanted Saric bad with the James Young pick (if he slid) and he looks like the real deal.

Depending on lottery, if C's get #1 I think they take Fultz and don't sign IT and if miss on #1 take Issac and sign IT to max deal.

There was a lot of debate a year ago about whether the Sixers or Celtics were in the better position.

Embiid is great and all, but I'll take the Celtics' position, thank you.

How do you draft 3 guys who have to sit out their rookie year? It's just weird.

 

[WhartonHusky]

I am a lifelong Sixers fan (dating back to early 80s). Could not disagree more with your assessment of the Sixers. Hinkie was a pure genius and even though I don't love Bryan Coangelo, the final chapter has yet to be written. Drafting Nerlens was hardly a mistake. It was a weak draft and they selected what many believed was the #1 overall player (anthony bennett??) at #6 purely because of broken leg--something no one considers a long term concern. Embiid was a special situation but Ben Simmons had no injury history and he got hurt after being selected. So the mantra that "Sixers only pick injured players" is folly.

The Sixers also have more cap space than any team, a pick swap with Sacramento that could yield a top 3-5 pick in a stacked draft as well as the Lakers top 3 protected pick (unprotected next year if it doesn't convey) and Sacramento's unprotected pick next year.

If you don't like the team or what they are doing, don't watch them. I watch nearly every game and have for the past 10+ years. I am excited as hell at what they are building and I would much rather be the Sixers than the Celtics...all.day.long.

 

[Walker11]

I am a lifelong Sixers fan (dating back to early 80s). Could not disagree more with your assessment of the Sixers. Hinkie was a pure genius and even though I don't love Bryan Coangelo, the final chapter has yet to be written. Drafting Nerlens was hardly a mistake. It was a weak draft and they selected what many believed was the #1 overall player (anthony bennett??) at #6 purely because of broken leg--something no one considers a long term concern. Embiid was a special situation but Ben Simmons had no injury history and he got hurt after being selected. So the mantra that "Sixers only pick injured players" is folly.

The Sixers also have more cap space than any team, a pick swap with Sacramento that could yield a top 3-5 pick in a stacked draft as well as the Lakers top 3 protected pick (unprotected next year if it doesn't convey) and Sacramento's unprotected pick next year.

If you don't like the team or what they are doing, don't watch them. I watch nearly every game and have for the past 10+ years. I am excited as hell at what they are building and I would much rather be the Sixers than the Celtics...all.day.long.

I was disgusted by Hinkie's actions but they are clearly in a good position. Not as good as the Celtics IMO but the most important factor in having a championship team is having a potential top 5ish guy. Embiid is that, and the Celtics don't have that guy. We will see what happens with the Brooklyn picks and with potential trades.

If the 76ers can pair Simmons with a 3 and D guard like Bradley or KCP and hit on a guard like Fultz or Ball this year with their own pick, watch out. The 18 Lakers and 19 Kings picks are tremendous assets and pure robbery.

 

[JSM1970]

I agree in concept, a front court of Saric, Simmons, Embiid is nice and then adding an elite PG (assuming) like Fultz, Ball or Smith and having huge cap to get an elite 2 can make them big time quickly

But no obvious choice, imagine C's getting Fultz and then either Porter or Ayton next year with Zizic and the French Draymond Green

C's are loaded

If you don't like the team or what they are doing, don't watch them. I watch nearly every game and have for the past 10+ years. I am excited as hell at what they are building and I would much rather be the Sixers than the Celtics...all.day.long.

 

[WhartonHusky]

I was disgusted by Hinkie's actions but they are clearly in a good position. Not as good as the Celtics IMO but the most important factor in having a championship team is having a potential top 5ish guy. Embiid is that, and the Celtics don't have that guy. We will see what happens with the Brooklyn picks and with potential trades.

If the 76ers can pair Simmons with a 3 and D guard like Bradley or KCP and hit on a guard like Fultz or Ball this year with their own pick, watch out. The 18 Lakers and 19 Kings picks are tremendous assets and pure robbery.

Totally agree. However, you are comparing Sixers w/o FA signings to the Celts w/FAs. Sixers have tons of young talent, picks and can sign 2 max FAs.

 

[gtcam]

I am a lifelong Sixers fan (dating back to early 80s). Could not disagree more with your assessment of the Sixers. Hinkie was a pure genius and even though I don't love Bryan Coangelo, the final chapter has yet to be written. Drafting Nerlens was hardly a mistake. It was a weak draft and they selected what many believed was the #1 overall player (anthony bennett??) at #6 purely because of broken leg--something no one considers a long term concern. Embiid was a special situation but Ben Simmons had no injury history and he got hurt after being selected. So the mantra that "Sixers only pick injured players" is folly.

The Sixers also have more cap space than any team, a pick swap with Sacramento that could yield a top 3-5 pick in a stacked draft as well as the Lakers top 3 protected pick (unprotected next year if it doesn't convey) and Sacramento's unprotected pick next year.

If you don't like the team or what they are doing, don't watch them. I watch nearly every game and have for the past 10+ years. I am excited as hell at what they are building and I would much rather be the Sixers than the Celtics...all.day.long.

I remember you preaching the same stuff when the Hinkie stuff came up last year. More power to you for sticking with the Sixers so long and that comes from a Cubs fan since 1963. But if you really think that the Sixers are better off than the Celtics you are in the slimmest group of people and/or smoking whatever comes from Mexico. The Celtics have the best young coach and one of the best GMs. The other best are not sitting in Philly. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to draft first and take the best available player. Consistently being the worst team has some rewards. My bet is that Simmons is a bust. He's a mental case to start.

 

[Walker11]

Totally agree. However, you are comparing Sixers w/o FA signings to the Celts w/FAs. Sixers have tons of young talent, picks and can sign 2 max FAs.

Lowe wrote earlier this week that the Celtics have a legit path towards a max spot this summer as well, provided they renounce the rights to Olynyk. The East is going to be wild once Lebron begins to decline. The C's and 76ers are set up beautifully for the future. Maybe even the Bucks, if they get over their poor injury luck and if Maker develops as the Bucks organization thinks he will. Howard Beck wrote a great profile on Maker recently which has me very excited for his future.

 

[formerlurker]

I wish Danny Ainge ran my Knicks and Brad Stevens coached them.

I'd trade 3 first round picks and James Dolan for them.

 

[WhartonHusky]

I remember you preaching the same stuff when the Hinkie stuff came up last year. More power to you for sticking with the Sixers so long and that comes from a Cubs fan since 1963. But if you really think that the Sixers are better off than the Celtics you are in the slimmest group of people and/or smoking whatever comes from Mexico. The Celtics have the best young coach and one of the best GMs. The other best are not sitting in Philly. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to draft first and take the best available player. Consistently being the worst team has some rewards. My bet is that Simmons is a bust. He's a mental case to start.

Celtics have accomplished nothing. Wake me up when they are contending for a chip. They have a solid team with a bunch of very good players -- but none great. Hard to win that way.

I think Ainge made a big mistake not making a deal for Paul George or Jimmy Butler. You have to land Supers when you get the chance (see also KG, Ray Allen).

 

[JSM1970]

Honestly, no way give up 2017 pick. Chance to get Fultz, next Russ.

I think Ainge made a big mistake not making a deal for Paul George or Jimmy Butler. You have to land Supers when you get the chance (see also KG, Ray Allen).

 

[Jerry1714]

Celtics have accomplished nothing. Wake me up when they are contending for a chip. They have a solid team with a bunch of very good players -- but none great. Hard to win that way.

I think Ainge made a big mistake not making a deal for Paul George or Jimmy Butler. You have to land Supers when you get the chance (see also KG, Ray Allen).

Joel Embidd has played 31 games in 3 years is this the 76ers great player? If so, good luck. Having money for 2 max players is great, but you need to be able to convince two max value players to come play for them. Again, good with that.

If you honestly would rather be in the position of the 76ers than the Celtics you either are a complete homer or not working with a full deck. Boston has a better coach, better GM, much better roster, and the Nets 1st for the next two years, and ample cap space for the 2018 FA class.

You do not give up all your young assets for Paul George who is going to LA in a year and half. If the could have gotten Butler I think they would have.

 

[BUConn10]

I would be excited for the next couple years if I was a 6ers fan. Embiid in his short time on the court has shown some eye opening displays of skill and athleticism at a crazy young age. Simmons is a can't miss, and they will likely add another talented rookie this year to their roster with tons of cap room on a young, relatively low pressure team that I think can attract some decent FAs soon. All this and we still havent even mentioned Jahlil Okafor, who during his entire time in PHI has somewhat been shielded from view and kept off the floor for one reason or another but theres really no doubt he is also an NBA starter.

Philly's biggest mistake throughout all of this has been the mishandling of the Okafor-Noel trade block/play time situation. They tanked both players' market values with how they handled everything and got robbed in the end by Dallas but they will recover. Also maybe not drafting a guard may be something they will regret too once they decide to start actually trying.

 

[nomar]

Celtics have accomplished nothing. Wake me up when they are contending for a chip. They have a solid team with a bunch of very good players -- but none great. Hard to win that way.

I think Ainge made a big mistake not making a deal for Paul George or Jimmy Butler. You have to land Supers when you get the chance (see also KG, Ray Allen).

Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia

I keed, I keed

 

[uconnever]

Sixer fan here and it's been a looooong time

 

[Dogdeacon]

Below is the record over the last FIVE years.
Questions:
1. When is it going to change?
2. Honestly, how many years of tanking did Sixers fans initially expect and how many are they willing to endure?
3. Any chance they are .500 even next season?
4. What is the best case scenario/year where they are contending for a title?

I'm just going to stick with the crazy theory that sports is about being competitive and losing on purpose even for a strategic future gain/reason is destructive. Especially when it becomes your culture (so it worked for Spurs - Duncan, maybe even Celtics one year, scant other evidence of tanking = championship).
Year Record
12-13 34-48 - Drafted Noel - Net is Justin Anderson & protected 1st rounder. The net makes Noel a bad pick because they doubled down on injuries with Embid (I agree Simmons doesn't count) & tripled down on Bigs.
13-14 19-63 - Drafted Embid - Net 31 games so far
14-15 18-64 - Drafted Okafor - Little trade value, doesn't fit with Embid.
15-16 10-72 - Drafted Simmons - Injured entire rookie year
16-17 22-36 - Possibly now tanking to try and get Lakers top-3 protected pick

Where's the Larry Bird or Tim Duncan instant impact on W-L? Embid is phenomenal, really hope he can stay healthy but man it's trending very poorly. In 3yrs Embid has played in less than 15% of their games - just announced he's getting a 2nd MRI since the injury, but given his history and the Sixers crackerjack medical team I'm sure he'll be back in no time.

 

[Jerry1714]

Below is the record over the last FIVE years.
Questions:
1. When is it going to change?
2. Honestly, how many years of tanking did Sixers fans initially expect and how many are they willing to endure?
3. Any chance they are .500 even next season?
4. What is the best case scenario/year where they are contending for a title?

I'm just going to stick with the crazy theory that sports is about being competitive and losing on purpose even for a strategic future gain/reason is destructive. Especially when it becomes your culture (so it worked for Spurs - Duncan, maybe even Celtics one year, scant other evidence of tanking = championship).
Year Record
12-13 34-48 - Drafted Noel - Net is Justin Anderson & protected 1st rounder. The net makes Noel a bad pick because they doubled down on injuries with Embid (I agree Simmons doesn't count) & tripled down on Bigs.
13-14 19-63 - Drafted Embid - Net 31 games so far
14-15 18-64 - Drafted Okafor - Little trade value, doesn't fit with Embid.
15-16 10-72 - Drafted Simmons - Injured entire rookie year
16-17 22-36 - Possibly now tanking to try and get Lakers top-3 protected pick

Where's the Larry Bird or Tim Duncan instant impact on W-L? Embid is phenomenal, really hope he can stay healthy but man it's trending very poorly. In 3yrs Embid has played in less than 15% of their games - just announced he's getting a 2nd MRI since the injury, but given his history and the Sixers crackerjack medical team I'm sure he'll be back in no time.

Also, the 6ers are building a losing culture and this will deter FAs.

Embid has 2 years left on his deal after this season, I cannot see any reason why he would stay there outside of the extra money (which yes could be a deciding factor)

 

[UConn990411]

Lol at this dude claiming the Sixers are in better shape than the Celtics.

In less than 4 years, the Celtics went from blowing up the rest of their title core to the projected #2 seed in the East ... and they have an extremely young roster, zero bad contracts, and the cap space to sign another max player if they want to.

And that's not even mentioning that they could end up with the #1 pick in the draft this summer, along with another possible top 5 pick next season. Oh, and those two Euro stash players from last year's draft appear to be legitimate talents, as does Jaylen Brown (and even Smart and Rozier), who should keep getting better. They have a pipeline of young talent for years to come to complement their quality veteran players. If they nail one of their draft picks (always an if), then they're in position to contend.

I don't disagree with the Sixers' approach, and still think the long game could work out, but at some point they need to take actual steps forward. If it doesn't happen next season - in year 6 - it's time to start worrying.

 

[Matrim55]

I think Ainge made a big mistake not making a deal for Paul George or Jimmy Butler.

Why? Neither of those guys is a perfect fit, both play on .500-ish teams, and neither is good enough to propel this team to make a real run at LeBron.

I'd have flipped an asset (maybe their own 2018 pick) and Amir for a dominant defensive rebounder (Monroe?), and trusted Stevens to figure out how to make it work defensively. But paying a king's ransom for guys like Butler or George, who are all-stars but not superstars, would've undermined a lot of the internal work Ainge has done while not really getting them any closer to knocking off a full-strength LeBron or Warriors team.

 

[UConn990411]

Why? Neither of those guys is a perfect fit, both play on .500-ish teams, and neither is good enough to propel this team to make a real run at LeBron.

I'd have flipped an asset (maybe their own 2018 pick) and Amir for a dominant defensive rebounder (Monroe?), and trusted Stevens to figure out how to make it work defensively. But paying a king's ransom for guys like Butler or George, who are all-stars but not superstars, would've undermined a lot of the internal work Ainge has done while not really getting them any closer to knocking off a full-strength LeBron or Warriors team.

I actually think George (but not Butler) is a great fit from both a basketball and long-term plan perspective, provided he'd be willing to re-sign.

But it's crazy to me how many fans wanted the Celtics to give up more for these players than they gave up for KG, when neither George nor Butler (especially Butler) are even close to KG-level players. They've improved 4 years in a row while getting younger AND improving their talent - which is extremely hard to do. Why mess up what's working?

 

[Dogdeacon]

Why? Neither of those guys is a perfect fit, both play on .500-ish teams, and neither is good enough to propel this team to make a real run at LeBron.

I'd have flipped an asset (maybe their own 2018 pick) and Amir for a dominant defensive rebounder (Monroe?), and trusted Stevens to figure out how to make it work defensively. But paying a king's ransom for guys like Butler or George, who are all-stars but not superstars, would've undermined a lot of the internal work Ainge has done while not really getting them any closer to knocking off a full-strength LeBron or Warriors team.

Also nonsensical that the guy whose team has spent 5 years and counting hoarding chips and making zero plays demands a team slowing building a competitor go all-in RIGHT now or they are finished?!

For the Celtics I think all-in moment will come this summer or next year as last of Nets picks is their last 'huge' asset and also least valuable to the Celtics given their roster, age & timeline. To trade even 1 of the #1s and two rotation players would have capped them out as middling contenders - adding just Butler or George isn't beating full strength Cavs or Warriors. Butler is emerging & PG-13 was once right there with LeBron, but neither is a top-10 player right now and the championship contenders each have at least TWO top-ten players. Celts have to see if they can get lucky with pick/player and land a transcendent talent in draft and that way they'd still have max contract money to offer a free agent i.e. Hayward who projects at Wins Above Replace 2017-19 at 6.8, 6.2, 5.6 vs Butler (7.6, 6.1, 6.0) or George (7.2, 6.7, 6.0). Not appreciable differences, so IF they get Hayward (or similar) AND draft lucky Celtics are infinitely better off probably in 17-18 and definitely beyond.

 

[Dogdeacon]

• Since 2011-12 Celtics have won 231 regular season games vs 138 for Sixers. 100 more wins by end of season. Of course the 76ers will never recapture those 100 nights of losses.
• Celtics have made playoffs FIVE of those 6 years including making it to conference finals* in 2012.

*Guess who they beat to get there? Evan Turner, Elton Brand, Lou Williams and Andre Igoudola were on the losing team (turned into what?), Celtics had Garnett, Pierce & Allen (turned into Net's picks).

I'm not exactly enjoying UConn's .500 season, I guess I can't possibly undue the delusion that allows fans to think 5 years of far worse is actually great because no one else is smart enough to lose this much and tomorrow they'll be the best.

 

[JSM1970]

I would have offered Nets 2018, Brown/Crowder and Smart\Rozier for Butler.

Like that a lot and still keep shot @ Fultz.

Also nonsensical that the guy whose team has spent 5 years and counting hoarding chips and making zero plays demands a team slowing building a competitor go all-in RIGHT now or they are finished?!

For the Celtics I think all-in moment will come this summer or next year as last of Nets picks is their last 'huge' asset and also least valuable to the Celtics given their roster, age & timeline. To trade even 1 of the #1s and two rotation players would have capped them out as middling contenders - adding just Butler or George isn't beating full strength Cavs or Warriors. Butler is emerging & PG-13 was once right there with LeBron, but neither is a top-10 player right now and the championship contenders each have at least TWO top-ten players. Celts have to see if they can get lucky with pick/player and land a transcendent talent in draft and that way they'd still have max contract money to offer a free agent i.e. Hayward who projects at Wins Above Replace 2017-19 at 6.8, 6.2, 5.6 vs Butler (7.6, 6.1, 6.0) or George (7.2, 6.7, 6.0). Not appreciable differences, so IF they get Hayward (or similar) AND draft lucky Celtics are infinitely better off probably in 17-18 and definitely beyond.