Notre Dame @ Clemson - 12/20/20

[triaddukefan]

Up and coming? From 300th in the country to maybe 250?

95 in the latest massey ratings

 

[mhshuskies]

Oh how I wish they were on the schedule this year, would love a sweet 50 point beat down!

 

[Plebe]

95 in the latest massey ratings

And yet DePaul beats a top 10 team... as opposed to losing to a team that is allegedly borderline top 100. Hmm.

 

[BobbyJ]

This game ended a few hours ago, but since it's Clemson I just have to:

View attachment 62711

LMAO.

 

[Alydar]

95 in the latest massey ratings

Massey is still using some of last seasons numbers. I think it's 100% 2020/2021 after 10 games.

 

[donalddoowop]

Oh how I wish they were on the schedule this year, would love a sweet 50 point beat down!

They were. They opted out.

 

[triaddukefan]

And yet DePaul beats a top 10 team... as opposed to losing to a team that is allegedly borderline top 100. Hmm.

 

[Dillon77]

Well, when your assists leader is a frosh forward and your starting lineup has made a whopping 7 baskets with a minute left in the game, you know something's very wrong.

McGraw’s Bench is eating its young. Lots of questions about coaching deficiencies.

- Re: that frosh forward, Maddy Westbeld -- I would be a huge proponent of playing Maddy at the elbow most of the time, because of her decision-making and ability to make whatever decision she makes generally work.
She had a tough time buying a field goal (I counted at least 5 rim outs), but all credit to Coach Butler and her players for harrassing Maddy for 40 minutes. All power to Westbeld for continuing to rebound and pass. She and Abby Prohaska kept trying until the end. In fact, Abby P. was on the receving end of a few of Westbeld's passes and drew at least three charges (taking over for Marta Sniezek from last year.)
-Not only were young in danger at McGraw's Bench following the game, so was the entire extended Domer Hoops community!

- I have a self-imposed rule not to react to bad games until the next day to see if emotions can be sanded down before looking at stat sheets and hearing pressers. (Of course, no presser has been released on ND's site.) Nonetheless, I'll just say it's good for the players to get out of South Bend for awhile and Niele & staff need to address the "preparation and readiness" standards she referred to at one point during the game.

Stay tuned.

 

[TheFarmFan]

- Re: that frosh forward, Maddy Westbeld -- I would be a huge proponent of playing Maddy at the elbow most of the time, because of her decision-making and ability to make whatever decision she makes generally work.
She had a tough time buying a field goal (I counted at least 5 rim outs), but all credit to Coach Butler and her players for harrassing Maddy for 40 minutes. All power to Westbeld for continuing to rebound and pass. She and Abby Prohaska kept trying until the end. In fact, Abby P. was on the receving end of a few of Westbeld's passes.

Don't disagree at all, and did not mean to impugn Westbeld, who's been doing yeoman's work and carrying this surprisingly desultory ND team. I just meant that if you're that heavily reliant on a frosh forward to run your offense, it's a pretty bad sign of how few good options one has. Given the overall talent of the ND players, it's kind of surprising how the whole seems to be so much less than the sum of its parts. I realize some of the injuries are chronic and probably impairing the players from performing at 100%, but it's still be a shock to see how fast they've fallen from national champions to also-rans. And a sobering lesson for fans of all teams of how quickly the the tide can turn on any team. (See also Oregon State.)

Has there been any talk of whether Muffet should have retired a season earlier in 2018 when her starting five all went pro? I can't help but think Niele might have had a slightly easier transition if she got to rebuild from the ground up rather than have to come into an already flailing program? (OTOH, after last season the expectations for her are certainly much lower!)

 

[oldude]

MM’s decision to retire after last season is looking better every day......

 

[Rb335]

I think NDs recruiting in the 2017/2018 classes is responsible for a large portion of their issues. Senior Vaughn has been injured, and was ranked #56 out of high school. Juniors Prohaska and Gilbert are solid role players, but not players you build a team around. They lack experienced leadership and don't have players who know how to win. Transfers Mabrey and Walker have been solid players, but when you learn to play college basketball with bad habits, those habits are hard to break.

To me, the rebuild starts with Peoples, Westbeld, and Brunelle. They are all talented and highly ranked, and need to become the leaders on this team. Then you follow them up with the other solid freshman, and good recruits coming in next year.

This season doesn't look like it's going to be incredibly successful, so if I was Ivey, I'd start to build the chemistry of next year's core.

 

[ucbart]

Don't disagree at all, and did not mean to impugn Westbeld, who's been doing yeoman's work and carrying this surprisingly desultory ND team. I just meant that if you're that heavily reliant on a frosh forward to run your offense, it's a pretty bad sign of how few good options one has. Given the overall talent of the ND players, it's kind of surprising how the whole seems to be so much less than the sum of its parts. I realize some of the injuries are chronic and probably impairing the players from performing at 100%, but it's still be a shock to see how fast they've fallen from national champions to also-rans. And a sobering lesson for fans of all teams of how quickly the the tide can turn on any team. (See also Oregon State.)

Yup-

Some of this has to fall directly on Muffett.

Some questions:

*What exactly happened there? Something happened. They just had a rash of transfers that would be starters on this team.
*After 2001, ND swam in mediocrity until Skylar arrived. She was a gift and her presence alone recruited Jewel, Arike, Turner, and on and on. After she left, the core that won in 2018 was a direct result of her imprint on the program. So, it seems to me that Skylar herself was a much better recruiter than the coaching staff.
*Not to be a jerk, but are we seeing why Geno backed off recruiting Burnelle? Yes, she has an injury, but I think the college game is just too fast for her.

 

[baggerbob]

Yup-

Some of this has to fall directly on Muffett.

Some questions:

*What exactly happened there? Something happened. They just had a rash of transfers that would be starters on this team.
*After 2001, ND swam in mediocrity until Skylar arrived. She was a gift and her presence alone recruited Jewel, Arike, Turner, and on and on. After she left, the core that won in 2018 was a direct result of her imprint on the program. So, it seems to me that Skylar herself was a much better recruiter than the coaching staff.
*Not to be a jerk, but are we seeing why Geno backed off recruiting Burnelle? Yes, she has an injury, but I think the college game is just too fast for her.

But don't you think Jewel leaving early said something about the state of the program. Leading to the future transfers.

 

[Dillon77]

Don't disagree at all, and did not mean to impugn Westbeld, who's been doing yeoman's work and carrying this surprisingly desultory ND team. I just meant that if you're that heavily reliant on a frosh forward to run your offense, it's a pretty bad sign of how few good options one has. Given the overall talent of the ND players, it's kind of surprising how the whole seems to be so much less than the sum of its parts. I realize some of the injuries are chronic and probably impairing the players from performing at 100%, but it's still be a shock to see how fast they've fallen from national champions to also-rans. And a sobering lesson for fans of all teams of how quickly the the tide can turn on any team. (See also Oregon State.)

Has there been any talk of whether Muffet should have retired a season earlier in 2018 when her starting five all went pro? I can't help but think Niele might have had a slightly easier transition if she got to rebuild from the ground up rather than have to come into an already flailing program? (OTOH, after last season the expectations for her are certainly much lower!)

- RE: your first paragraph - no offense taken. You're right to point out that a forward -- let alone a freshman forward -- shouldn't have to be taking that lead. But that's kind of what it's down to.
This team's core group last year were neophytes to the Irish and it looked it. Yes, there's injuries -- most notably Brunelle -- but the slide into "also-ran" kind of play has been a shocker.

- Muffet wasn't quite ready to hang it up after 2018. Plus, she didn't want to encumber her successor with that ditch to climb out of. Plus, Niele was known to be the preferred successor and she recruited virtually everyone on the team, so she knew what she was getting.

Niele has said that she's trying out different personnel and schemes. I'd think she's got a large enough base of games to see what works and does not for the Irish (get back to the motion offense) and might be another year of zone defense.

Yikes.

 

[sivad40]

But don't you think Jewel leaving early said something about the state of the program. Leading to the future transfers.

Can you prove there's any correlation Jewel leaving early and those ND transfers? I don't believe that they correlate with each other. That's like saying there was a correlation between Azure Stevens leaving early and AEH transferring.

 

[ucbart]

Can you prove there's any correlation Jewel leaving early and those ND transfers? I don't believe that they correlate with each other. That's like saying there was a correlation between Azure Stevens leaving early and AEH transferring.

Well, considering what Jewel said after she left, and Muffet leaving her off that tweet this summer, I’d say yes, there is a direct correlation.

The AEH and Z situations are totally different. AEH was kicked off the team and Z completed her eligibility.

 

[sivad40]

Well, considering what Jewel said after she left, and Muffet leaving her off that tweet this summer, I’d say yes, there is a direct correlation.

The AEH and Z situations are totally different. AEH was kicked off the team and Z completed her eligibility.

What's the correlation between Patberg transferring and Loyd leaving early? What did IMuffet's tweet have to do with any of those transfers? Jewel didn't leave ND because of playing time like some those other transfers did. Azure could've have came back if she want to but she chose not come back.

 

[DefenseBB]

Here's my recollection of some of the various theories:

• Jewell left because she was eligible for the WNBA draft and went #1 to Seattle. The discord with MM was due to Jewell intimating should would return for her senior year when the NCAAT started but by the time of the declaration date, she elected to leave, irritating MM.
• Patberg had been injured most of her 2 years at ND and due to the current players and the committed recruits, Ali elected to leave.
• The real headscratcher was Boley who was ranked #6 by HG and was getting some playing time as a freshman. My view is she should have gotten more playing time than she did but she did get more than Jackie Young.
• MM always did well "molding" the #20-45 ranked recruits into something more than their sums which I think was due to the type of character they may have.
• She also had a propensity for the "chip on the shoulder player" ala Mabrey's #1 and #2, Arike
• She also landed those Team players like Cable, Kat Westbeld, Lindsey Allen who sacrificed for the greater good. Unlike Dara Mabrey or Sam Brunnelle.
• Brunnelle is vastly overrated as evidenced by her preference to only shoot 3 pointers and not shoot them very well. She was overhyped last year as the best player on a poor team and the fact she got so woefully out of shape during her rehabilitation says it all.

I absolutely agree Maddy Westbeld is a star in the making. People's is a nice player and looks really good simply because the rest of the options-Brunnelle, little Mabrey, Vaughn and others simply are not as good. I am not convinced People's is a star or capable of handling the load on a top team. Maddy is capable and that would improve if she had others to pass to.

The last component that Dillon is aware of is the actual coaching learning curve that Ivey has to climb, the sooner the better. Antonelli was effusive in Niele's praise yesterday on her "preparation of a game plan" for Clemson but the "player execution was off", which is kind of BS. Niele has to adapt in-game and I am not convinced her staff is assisting as much as it should. Ivey chose to let go of Beth Cunningham and bring in Coquese Washington, which I was dumbfounded by. Beth is a former head coach, a good head coach at that and she clearly could have helped. She is now helping Kara at Duke (Go DUKE!). Until Ivey figures out how apply the parts, adjust during the games, she will be viewed as a "recruiter" not a coach.

Jury is still out, as it should but while many thought they could "reload", they are in "rebuild".

My last chuckle will be that during the game yesterday, they cited a quote from Dara Mabrey on why she left VPI for ND, to which she stated that Virginia Tech goals are different, ND wants to contend for National Championships every year and she wants to be a part of that. So schadenfreude does exist...

 

[eebmg]

Peoples may have some good driving skills but FT's < 50% and 2/3 Assists / TO ratio and about 10% from 3pt. And this is her 2nd year when some of these stats are supposed to improve but are worse than freshman year.

 

[Dillon77]

Here's my recollection of some of the various theories:

• Jewell left because she was eligible for the WNBA draft and went #1 to Seattle. The discord with MM was due to Jewell intimating should would return for her senior year when the NCAAT started but by the time of the declaration date, she elected to leave, irritating MM.
• Patberg had been injured most of her 2 years at ND and due to the current players and the committed recruits, Ali elected to leave.
• The real headscratcher was Boley who was ranked #6 by HG and was getting some playing time as a freshman. My view is she should have gotten more playing time than she did but she did get more than Jackie Young.
• MM always did well "molding" the #20-45 ranked recruits into something more than their sums which I think was due to the type of character they may have.
• She also had a propensity for the "chip on the shoulder player" ala Mabrey's #1 and #2, Arike
• She also landed those Team players like Cable, Kat Westbeld, Lindsey Allen who sacrificed for the greater good. Unlike Dara Mabrey or Sam Brunnelle.
• Brunnelle is vastly overrated as evidenced by her preference to only shoot 3 pointers and not shoot them very well. She was overhyped last year as the best player on a poor team and the fact she got so woefully out of shape during her rehabilitation says it all.

I absolutely agree Maddy Westbeld is a star in the making. People's is a nice player and looks really good simply because the rest of the options-Brunnelle, little Mabrey, Vaughn and others simply are not as good. I am not convinced People's is a star or capable of handling the load on a top team. Maddy is capable and that would improve if she had others to pass to.

The last component that Dillon is aware of is the actual coaching learning curve that Ivey has to climb, the sooner the better. Antonelli was effusive in Niele's praise yesterday on her "preparation of a game plan" for Clemson but the "player execution was off", which is kind of BS. Niele has to adapt in-game and I am not convinced her staff is assisting as much as it should. Ivey chose to let go of Beth Cunningham and bring in Coquese Washington, which I was dumbfounded by. Beth is a former head coach, a good head coach at that and she clearly could have helped. She is now helping Kara at Duke (Go DUKE!). Until Ivey figures out how apply the parts, adjust during the games, she will be viewed as a "recruiter" not a coach.

Jury is still out, as it should but while many thought they could "reload", they are in "rebuild".

My last chuckle will be that during the game yesterday, they cited a quote from Dara Mabrey on why she left VPI for ND, to which she stated that Virginia Tech goals are different, ND wants to contend for National Championships every year and she wants to be a part of that. So schadenfreude does exist...

Really quite thorough. Just have a few things to add:

- Boley: She played in all 37 games that the Irish had that year, starting 10, when filling in for various injuries or illnesses. That's 10 more starts than Jackie Young, btw. MM didn't hesitate to put her into the lineup and she had a breakout game against Ohio State in the NCAA Sweet Sixteen. One Stanford blocked shot on Arike and Erin might've made the final four as a frosh.

Going into the off-season, it was thought that Boley was going to get a lot of PT in 2017-18 because Brianna Turner would sit out the entire year recuperating from/rehabbing her knee and Jessica Shepard was still a member of the Nebraska womens team.

- Patberg. You're right about the injury/illness rash that hit her. It was a shame because just prior to her ACL, MM talked about Patberg playing with Lindsay Allen in the backcourt. This was a big deal becuase her other two frosh teammates were Arike and Marina.

Her transfer, while completely understandable, was also one that many of us think got the point goard situation into a state of flux that ND has still not pulled out of. To recap:
- Ali Patberg is trying to come back from setbacks
- MM announces Lili Thompson will come in as a grad transfer.
- Patberg transfers to Indiana.
- MM/Niele at first get a commitment from Jenna Brown, who promptly decommits and heads to Stanford. Chatter about Dara Mabrey and Jordan Nixon emerges as PG replacement for Brown/Patberg before Nixon commits.
- Nixon spends one year -- filled with nagging injuries -- before hitting the road to Texas A&AM
- Marta Sniezek spends one year as the next Stanford grad transfer.
- And, now, the troila of Brown-Nixon-Mabrey has done full circle with Mabrey now at ND.
- Still, most don't think this will end until Olivia Miles enrolls in 2021.

- Oddly enough, the Boley and Patberg transfers didn't hurt ND on the court in 2017-18 because the troika of Mabrey-Young-Ogunbowale were good enough to get the ball upcourt and into the half-court offense. So Patberg and Thompson were not missed that year. And Boley certainly wasn't because incoming transfer Jessica Shepard was one of the most important components (some might say the most important) of that team.

- However, I think not having Boley and/or Patberg the following year hurt the Irish. Boley could've worked well with Turner and Shepard and Patberg would've been in a mix with Mabrey/Arike O and Jackie Young.

So, MM has been using transfers for specific seasons (the two Stanford PGs) and one that fell out of the sky (Shepard). I'm still not quite sure how/why Destinee Walker was picked up because ND always has a lot of guards and now there are too many. And next year, with the "mulligan" year, it will be even crazier with Olivia Miles and Sonia Citron joining virtually every guard on the ND roster.

Where ND coulda/shoulda used some transfers -- like most P5 schools -- in in the frontcourt.

Stay tuned.

-

 

[DefenseBB]

Really quite thorough. Just have a few things to add:

- Boley: ...Going into the off-season, it was thought that Boley was going to get a lot of PT in 2017-18 because Brianna Turner would sit out the entire year recuperating from/rehabbing her knee and Jessica Shepard was still a member of the Nebraska womens team.

-

Thanks Dillion, but the $10,000 question is "Why did Erin Boley leave?"That has been subject of much conjecture especially since she's from Kentucky so to migrate to Oregon...speculation is a conflict with MM...

 

[BobbyJ]

Thanks Dillion, but the $10,000 question is "Why did Erin Boley leave?"That has been subject of much conjecture especially since she's from Kentucky so to migrate to Oregon...speculation is a conflict with MM...

Maybe just to get free Nike shoes and apparel?

 

[Figurehead]

Maybe just to get free Nike shoes and apparel?

Sometimes it is the fit with the coach.

 

[Sched234]

Really quite thorough. Just have a few things to add:

- Boley: She played in all 37 games that the Irish had that year, starting 10, when filling in for various injuries or illnesses. That's 10 more starts than Jackie Young, btw. MM didn't hesitate to put her into the lineup and she had a breakout game against Ohio State in the NCAA Sweet Sixteen. One Stanford blocked shot on Arike and Erin might've made the final four as a frosh.

Going into the off-season, it was thought that Boley was going to get a lot of PT in 2017-18 because Brianna Turner would sit out the entire year recuperating from/rehabbing her knee and Jessica Shepard was still a member of the Nebraska womens team.

- Patberg. You're right about the injury/illness rash that hit her. It was a shame because just prior to her ACL, MM talked about Patberg playing with Lindsay Allen in the backcourt. This was a big deal becuase her other two frosh teammates were Arike and Marina.

Her transfer, while completely understandable, was also one that many of us think got the point goard situation into a state of flux that ND has still not pulled out of. To recap:
- Ali Patberg is trying to come back from setbacks
- MM announces Lili Thompson will come in as a grad transfer.
- Patberg transfers to Indiana.
- MM/Niele at first get a commitment from Jenna Brown, who promptly decommits and heads to Stanford. Chatter about Dara Mabrey and Jordan Nixon emerges as PG replacement for Brown/Patberg before Nixon commits.
- Nixon spends one year -- filled with nagging injuries -- before hitting the road to Texas A&AM
- Marta Sniezek spends one year as the next Stanford grad transfer.
- And, now, the troila of Brown-Nixon-Mabrey has done full circle with Mabrey now at ND.
- Still, most don't think this will end until Olivia Miles enrolls in 2021.

- Oddly enough, the Boley and Patberg transfers didn't hurt ND on the court in 2017-18 because the troika of Mabrey-Young-Ogunbowale were good enough to get the ball upcourt and into the half-court offense. So Patberg and Thompson were not missed that year. And Boley certainly wasn't because incoming transfer Jessica Shepard was one of the most important components (some might say the most important) of that team.

- However, I think not having Boley and/or Patberg the following year hurt the Irish. Boley could've worked well with Turner and Shepard and Patberg would've been in a mix with Mabrey/Arike O and Jackie Young.

So, MM has been using transfers for specific seasons (the two Stanford PGs) and one that fell out of the sky (Shepard). I'm still not quite sure how/why Destinee Walker was picked up because ND always has a lot of guards and now there are too many. And next year, with the "mulligan" year, it will be even crazier with Olivia Miles and Sonia Citron joining virtually every guard on the ND roster.

Where ND coulda/shoulda used some transfers -- like most P5 schools -- in in the frontcourt.

Stay tuned.

-

I do anticipate an exodus of some degree from ND this year. There are just too many guards, and the incoming talent is likely to send some of the bench players looking for a better opportunity (perhaps rightly so. For these young women, time on the court is necessary to achieve any dreams of playing at the next level). You want only the best for the players, even if you don’t feel any affinity for the program.

I’m only speculating, but I’d be surprised if— of the bunch of Brunelle, Peoples, Campbell, Hayes, and Prohaska — there aren’t two or more transfers. I think the first two, given their gaudy high school rankings, are likely going to look for a slingshot into the WNBA, and may not find it in a post-glory ND program. That said, both have had ample opportunity to play thus far, so you certainly can’t say their play has been so good that they just can’t do any more for this team.

Again, this is all speculation, and it’s very early in the season (although, as some here have pointed out, ND doesn’t seem likely to reenter the Top 25 this year). We will see what happens. Would love to hear other thoughts on this topic.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

ND has lost several players to transfer and had some injuries to others. It was clear last year that MM wasn't enjoying herself and am not surprised she hung it up.

Ivey helped recruit this team and likely knew what she was getting into. It's far too early to decide on whether this is a good hire or not given the lack of weapons and some of the general craziness of this past year. Still, ND has higher expectations than most so it's not surprising some fans and likely players are already frustrated.