Doesn't look like Air Force to BE is going to happen

[Rumrunner]

"DanWolken Thompson also told me the possibility of Air Force taking football to Big East and keeping other sports in MWC was "not happening." DanWolken Chatted with Craig Thompson here at Div 1 meetings in Dallas. He said MWC and C-USA ADs will have dinner tonight to further convo on merger"


Navy's AD has already gone on record in saying that they won't join until/unless all the speculation about teams leabing ends. I wonder what Gladchuk thinks of the WVU to SEC, UofL to Big 12 tumors
? Also, CBS just signed a longterm deal with Navy...hard to assimilate that aspect.

In short, service academies look doubtful.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

If we invite bunch of football onlies, it just further demonstrates what a bunch of clueless jokers people running this conference are. Football onlies have basketball schools' fingerprints all over it. If we are not getting into the ACC anytime soon, we better work our ass off to rebuild the BE home we got the best we can until the next major realignment.

It is probably a blessing in disguise that service academies are not coming since they will never be that competitive in football. If UL does leave along with WVU, we still got UCONN, RU, USF, Cincy and TCU to work with. If we add Houston, Temple, ECU and UCF, we will get back to 9 members. We can live with that for a little bit to see what else happens. If we need to go to 10, I would add SMU/Memphis to the mix as well. It is not the best, but it is something we can live with.

 

[ZooCougar]

Don't care.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

"DanWolken Thompson also told me the possibility of Air Force taking football to Big East and keeping other sports in MWC was "not happening." DanWolken Chatted with Craig Thompson here at Div 1 meetings in Dallas. He said MWC and C-USA ADs will have dinner tonight to further convo on merger"

Navy's AD has already gone on record in saying that they won't join until/unless all the speculation about teams leabing ends. I wonder what Gladchuk thinks of the WVU to SEC, UofL to Big 12 tumors
? Also, CBS just signed a longterm deal with Navy...hard to assimilate that aspect.

In short, service academies look doubtful.

Either the Big East is focusing on other targets or they don't care. It doesn't look like anyone is even in dialogue with the service academies.

 

[gars44]

"DanWolken Thompson also told me the possibility of Air Force taking football to Big East and keeping other sports in MWC was "not happening." DanWolken Chatted with Craig Thompson here at Div 1 meetings in Dallas. He said MWC and C-USA ADs will have dinner tonight to further convo on merger"

Navy's AD has already gone on record in saying that they won't join until/unless all the speculation about teams leabing ends. I wonder what Gladchuk thinks of the WVU to SEC, UofL to Big 12 tumors
? Also, CBS just signed a longterm deal with Navy...hard to assimilate that aspect.

In short, service academies look doubtful.

Good.

 

[freescooter]

If we invite bunch of football onlies, it just further demonstrates what a bunch of clueless jokers people running this conference are. Football onlies have basketball schools' fingerprints all over it. If we are not getting into the ACC anytime soon, we better work our ass off to rebuild the BE home we got the best we can until the next major realignment.

It is probably a blessing in disguise that service academies are not coming since they will never be that competitive in football. If UL does leave along with WVU, we still got UCONN, RU, USF, Cincy and TCU to work with. If we add Houston, Temple, ECU and UCF, we will get back to 9 members. We can live with that for a little bit to see what else happens. If we need to go to 10, I would add SMU/Memphis to the mix as well. It is not the best, but it is something we can live with.

+1

 

[IMind]

Good for Navy on the long term deal. I actually think the independent status with all sports in the Patriot League works very well for Army and Navy. I never liked the academies to the Big East scenario.

 

[freescooter]

Good for Navy on the long term deal. I actually think the independent status with all sports in the Patriot League works very well for Army and Navy. I never liked the academies to the Big East scenario.

I agree. If the Big East continues as a football league, it needs to forget about the football only members...just forget about that concept. It needs to add all-sports members and hope to heck that they can carry their weight. Assuming TCU comes, Temple & Central Florida are to me the two most logical short term additons. The league needs to be thinking both short term, how do we stabilize this conference, and long term, what do we need to establish a solid all-sports conference independent of the basketball schools. Temple basketball helps with that. UCF hasn't had great teams but seems to be trying (maybe too hard). You need to add a couple more as well, maybe Houston makes sense as a match for TCU. My goal would be to get to 10 by the time Syracuse and Pitt leave and 12 shortly thereafter. By 2017 I would want to be seperate from the basketball schools. And I'd fire Marianato almost immediately. We need new leadership to carry this out.

 

[EricLA]

If we invite bunch of football onlies, it just further demonstrates what a bunch of clueless jokers people running this conference are. Football onlies have basketball schools' fingerprints all over it. If we are not getting into the ACC anytime soon, we better work our ass off to rebuild the BE home we got the best we can until the next major realignment.

It is probably a blessing in disguise that service academies are not coming since they will never be that competitive in football. If UL does leave along with WVU, we still got UCONN, RU, USF, Cincy and TCU to work with. If we add Houston, Temple, ECU and UCF, we will get back to 9 members. We can live with that for a little bit to see what else happens. If we need to go to 10, I would add SMU/Memphis to the mix as well. It is not the best, but it is something we can live with.

makes sense to me. i'd not be in favor of adding any school as a football only. football drives the bus. IMHO it should be all or nothing...

 

[IMind]

makes sense to me. i'd not be in favor of adding any school as a football only. football drives the bus. IMHO it should be all or nothing...

I think this is the thing that's keeping the Big East from coming out with a clear plan... and why you hear things like Air Force, Army, Navy... etc. It's also what keeps alive things like schools jumping to the Big 12 (which is just as unstable, if not more so than the Big East.)

Unlike most people though I think the Big East should just add two schools to get to 9 again... keep things open in case Kansas, KState, etc become available.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I agree. If the Big East continues as a football league, it needs to forget about the football only members...just forget about that concept. It needs to add all-sports members and hope to heck that they can carry their weight. Assuming TCU comes, Temple & Central Florida are to me the two most logical short term additons. The league needs to be thinking both short term, how do we stabilize this conference, and long term, what do we need to establish a solid all-sports conference independent of the basketball schools. Temple basketball helps with that. UCF hasn't had great teams but seems to be trying (maybe too hard). You need to add a couple more as well, maybe Houston makes sense as a match for TCU. My goal would be to get to 10 by the time Syracuse and Pitt leave and 12 shortly thereafter. By 2017 I would want to be seperate from the basketball schools. And I'd fire Marianato almost immediately. We need new leadership to carry this out.

I agree. The Big East will be a better conference if it can add more bad basketball programs. Excellent solution.

 

[Hoophound]

I agree. The Big East will be a better conference if it can add more bad basketball programs. Excellent solution.

I'm confused Nelson. I think you make a lot of great points despite the backlash some posters give you. Why would you be against adding weak basketball programs that have decent (best alternative level) football programs? If football rules then we need to beef up football. Basketball allows you to play plenty of OOC games so strong basketball programs can fatten up the resume OOC if need be. I much prefer this approach than bringing UMASS or NOVA into an already weak football conference. Not arguing, just asking you to clarify your position again on this. I don't see a better alternative than bringing in Houston, UCF, Temple and ECU.

 

[upstater]

Nelson is advocating that UConn drop football essentially.

But those who are saying "No football-onlies" should realize that the basketball onlies are not going to saddle themselves with an East Carolina in the event all the former BE football schools takeoff to other conferences. That's why the BE is officially a gigantic mess. Your solution is inviting football onlies or else the football schools leave the BE.

 

[businesslawyer]

Nelson is advocating that UConn drop football essentially.

But those who are saying "No football-onlies" should realize that the basketball onlies are not going to saddle themselves with an East Carolina in the event all the former BE football schools takeoff to other conferences. That's why the BE is officially a gigantic mess. Your solution is inviting football onlies or else the football schools leave the BE.

Yes. That's why, despite the annoying whining on this board, waiting for the dust to settle is the only thing the Big East has available to it at the moment. As soon as people know if the football schools are gone or staying, they can determine if there is a plan that will satisfy both the football schools and the basketball schools. But it would be stupid for Georgetown et. al. to take on CUSA schools as full voting members if UConn, WVU and Louisville aren't then going to stay. Why should they do that? Why would we in their shoes?

 

[freescooter]

I agree. The Big East will be a better conference if it can add more bad basketball programs. Excellent solution.

Temple is a Top 25 program. Has been on and off for decades. And of late they have had far more success than your darling, St Johns. Went to the NCAA tournament every year from 1990-2001, and are now on a four year run of tourney invites. Georgetown hasn't done that. Villanova hasn't done that. Put them in a league with UCONN and Louisville, West Virginia and Cincy and they would be at least comparable to Marquette immediately. I'm not claiming the UCF is anything other than ordinary.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Nelson is advocating that UConn drop football essentially.

But those who are saying "No football-onlies" should realize that the basketball onlies are not going to saddle themselves with an East Carolina in the event all the former BE football schools takeoff to other conferences. That's why the BE is officially a gigantic mess. Your solution is inviting football onlies or else the football schools leave the BE.

Unlike 2/3's of this board who just cries or attacks anyone who proposes a solution, I have been crystal clear here on where I stand. Loading up on crappy football programs and splitting the conference does not seem very smart to me. That is so far removed from dropping football that you are acknowledging I am write by saying that is my position.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I'm confused Nelson. I think you make a lot of great points despite the backlash some posters give you. Why would you be against adding weak basketball programs that have decent (best alternative level) football programs? If football rules then we need to beef up football. Basketball allows you to play plenty of OOC games so strong basketball programs can fatten up the resume OOC if need be. I much prefer this approach than bringing UMASS or NOVA into an already weak football conference. Not arguing, just asking you to clarify your position again on this. I don't see a better alternative than bringing in Houston, UCF, Temple and ECU.

If this round of expansion has shown anything, it is that MARKETS rule, not football. Missouri, Colorado and Utah were all more attractive as expansion candidates than Oklahoma. What does that say about football ruling?

I would add Houston for all sports, and Temple and UMass for football only, with a vague indication they could join all-sports down the road. 16 basketball programs, most of which are very strong and in huge markets, and 10 football programs, which would be a significant quality improvement over where the Big East is right now in football, and all of them in good markets. TCU and Houston are better than Pitt and Syracuse, and Temple is better than Syracuse.

 

[freescooter]

Yes. That's why, despite the annoying whining on this board, waiting for the dust to settle is the only thing the Big East has available to it at the moment. As soon as people know if the football schools are gone or staying, they can determine if there is a plan that will satisfy both the football schools and the basketball schools. But it would be stupid for Georgetown et. al. to take on CUSA schools as full voting members if UConn, WVU and Louisville aren't then going to stay. Why should they do that? Why would we in their shoes?

Well, sure BL. But I'm speculating on longer term strategy assuming all or most of UCONN, Louisville Cincy, South Florida , Rutgers et al either choose to or are forced by circumstances to remain. It seems to me that from their perspective the last thing you want is to be saddled with a bunch of football only members who have zero chance of being part of a serious baksetball league down the line. An dif you are talking about Army, Navy and Air Force, that is exactly what you are talking about. That essentially means you are permenantly casting you lot with the basketball schools. And given what we've seen twice in the past decade, I don't see that as a longterm solution. It means you can't act quickly when and if the B-12 spins out of control again. It means you will struggle to be large enough to survive if another program or programs leave for greener pastures. That's why I said you need a short term plan, Temple, which won't hurt your basketball and indeed is the best Eastern hoops program not in the Big East arguably, and while not Syracuse or Pitt, might be in a better conference. UCF doesn't bring great basketball but it does bring credable football and has some hoops potential. So were back to 9 when Pitt and Syracuse leave. I'd like 10, but not if there isn't a program that makes sense...not that adds value, since I don't think that is viable any more, but that has the potential to grow into a competetive football and basketball program, ideally very good in one and at least ok in the other. In my view the only way to build a stable conference is to eventually get to 12-14 members for all sports and split from the basketball schools. But we don't need to do that by Thursday. I said 2017, but maybe it takes a few more years. But I do think there needs to be a deadline to break apart and form a seperate league.

 

[toppencil]

If this round of expansion has shown anything, it is that MARKETS rule, not football. Missouri, Colorado and Utah were all more attractive as expansion candidates than Oklahoma. What does that say about football ruling?

I would add Houston for all sports, and Temple and UMass for football only, with a vague indication they could join all-sports down the road. 16 basketball programs, most of which are very strong and in huge markets, and 10 football programs, which would be a significant quality improvement over where the Big East is right now in football, and all of them in good markets. TCU and Houston are better than Pitt and Syracuse, and Temple is better than Syracuse.

Stop, you're making too much sense and going too fast. First of all, saying UMass on this forum is very dangerous and upsetting. Second, please don't mention Villanova moving up to FBS, it will cause a forum meltdown. Oops.

Look it's ACC or nothing, if we can't get into the ACC we might as well join the fcuking Peace Corps.

Right now, we need to assemble an angry mob with pitchforks and head over to Providence. Once Marinade is gone, we can head up to Boston and "convince" BC to do the right thing.

 

[upstater]

Unlike 2/3's of this board who just cries or attacks anyone who proposes a solution, I have been crystal clear here on where I stand. Loading up on crappy football programs and splitting the conference does not seem very smart to me. That is so far removed from dropping football that you are acknowledging I am write by saying that is my position.

You've offered no solutions. It's either add teams or split. What other solution is there?

 

[upstater]

Well, sure BL. But I'm speculating on longer term strategy assuming all or most of UCONN, Louisville Cincy, South Florida , Rutgers et al either choose to or are forced by circumstances to remain. It seems to me that from their perspective the last thing you want is to be saddled with a bunch of football only members who have zero chance of being part of a serious baksetball league down the line. An dif you are talking about Army, Navy and Air Force, that is exactly what you are talking about. That essentially means you are permenantly casting you lot with the basketball schools. And given what we've seen twice in the past decade, I don't see that as a longterm solution. It means you can't act quickly when and if the B-12 spins out of control again. It means you will struggle to be large enough to survive if another program or programs leave for greener pastures. That's why I said you need a short term plan, Temple, which won't hurt your basketball and indeed is the best Eastern hoops program not in the Big East arguably, and while not Syracuse or Pitt, might be in a better conference. UCF doesn't bring great basketball but it does bring credable football and has some hoops potential. So were back to 9 when Pitt and Syracuse leave. I'd like 10, but not if there isn't a program that makes sense...not that adds value, since I don't think that is viable any more, but that has the potential to grow into a competetive football and basketball program, ideally very good in one and at least ok in the other. In my view the only way to build a stable conference is to eventually get to 12-14 members for all sports and split from the basketball schools. But we don't need to do that by Thursday. I said 2017, but maybe it takes a few more years. But I do think there needs to be a deadline to break apart and form a seperate league.

Temple isn't bad but... any extended time in ANY reorganized football conference would be a huge blow to UConn football. Not sure if they could recover so easily from it. It would take being invited into the ACC and B10 despite bad football. So, I'm just not getting hung up on the solution when the ONLY thing that's going to save UConn sports longterm is being added to a big conference.

 

[freescooter]

nelson,

I don't think we disagree that much on the short term solution. Though I'd rather Central Florida over UMass. One is a legitimate 1A program. the other is just beginning the upgrade process. Unlike some I wouldn't rule them out as part of getting from 9 to 12. Just short term. And I just don't favor football only members. Temple is a legitimate program in the 4th largest market. Other than kowtowing to Villanova, why in heavens name wouldn't you want them in your basketball league?

 

[businesslawyer]

Well, sure BL. But I'm speculating on longer term strategy assuming all or most of UCONN, Louisville Cincy, South Florida , Rutgers et al either choose to or are forced by circumstances to remain. It seems to me that from their perspective the last thing you want is to be saddled with a bunch of football only members who have zero chance of being part of a serious baksetball league down the line. An dif you are talking about Army, Navy and Air Force, that is exactly what you are talking about. That essentially means you are permenantly casting you lot with the basketball schools. And given what we've seen twice in the past decade, I don't see that as a longterm solution. It means you can't act quickly when and if the B-12 spins out of control again. It means you will struggle to be large enough to survive if another program or programs leave for greener pastures. That's why I said you need a short term plan, Temple, which won't hurt your basketball and indeed is the best Eastern hoops program not in the Big East arguably, and while not Syracuse or Pitt, might be in a better conference. UCF doesn't bring great basketball but it does bring credable football and has some hoops potential. So were back to 9 when Pitt and Syracuse leave. I'd like 10, but not if there isn't a program that makes sense...not that adds value, since I don't think that is viable any more, but that has the potential to grow into a competetive football and basketball program, ideally very good in one and at least ok in the other. In my view the only way to build a stable conference is to eventually get to 12-14 members for all sports and split from the basketball schools. But we don't need to do that by Thursday. I said 2017, but maybe it takes a few more years. But I do think there needs to be a deadline to break apart and form a seperate league.

Nah, I'm with Waylon on this part of the puzzle. If I rebuild, I want to stay in the Big East and put together the best football conference I can. Not leave the Big East and put together the best football conference I can. I still have yet to see one representative of a school say that the reluctance of the basketball schools to do something cost us an opportunity. And, when fans say it, it's always with respect to opportunities that have as many issues as solutions.

I'm not opposed to a Navy. Whatever we do is a bridge to the day of superconferences. I want the best football conference I can get, whether I play hoops with those schools or not. If you can rebuild with better football teams and programs than navy is fine. Where I'm not like Waylon is that it's not about markets at the moment -- it's about the BCS bid. I need the most political pressure and the best computer rankings I can generate. Navy gets me both. UCF, followed by ECU, gets me quality football. And UCF brings me a market to boot. Air Force is friggin far, but as a football only, giving me prestige, quality football and political pressure, not willing to say it's dumb.

Remember, we are not trying to build a conference for the next 100 years. We're trying to keep a BCS bid for a few years until the next earthquake.

 

[Husky68]

Wonder if BL still thinks "if the football schools thought they were better off without the basketball only schools they would have left" still rings true. Not "rings true" in the sense that it isn't what they did, but in the sense "hmmmmm, did that make sense". Kind of like, "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" or the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same results".

Football schools need to break off now. Need to negotiate best deal re basketball only schools re NCAA basketball payouts an BE name etc. fair to both.

Have football schools:
Rutgers, Uconn, WV, Cin, Louisville, USF and TCU.
Need at least 10 teams.
Add UCF, Houston and Tulane.

I live in New Orleans now, great place to visit and recruit. Tulane is good academic school, plays baseball and plays in superdome. Tie into AQ conference and would improve recruiting. As good a fit in football as Duke and Vandy.

I would go right to 12 with Temple and SMU.

Would give WV, USF, TCU and maybe one other as top 25 football potential for 2011.

Good basketball re Uconn, WV, Cin, Louisville, Temple.

I would also ask Div 1aa football teams in BE to also join, saying are a football league also and even if not div 1A you have similar interests and if you want to upgrade you are in. This keeps (I think) Georgetown and Vill.

That is 14 teams for basketball and 12 for football.

Got to have rivals:

Rutgers/Uconn
USF/UCF
TCU/SMU
Tulane/Houston
Temple/Vill
Cin/Lou
WV and everyone
Georgetown and everyone for BB

 

[businesslawyer]

Wonder if BL still thinks "if the football schools thought they were better off without the basketball only schools they would have left" still rings true. Not "rings true" in the sense that it isn't what they did, but in the sense "hmmmmm, did that make sense". Kind of like, "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" or the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same results".

Football schools need to break off now. Need to negotiate best deal re basketball only schools re NCAA basketball payouts an BE name etc. fair to both.



Have football schools:
Rutgers, Uconn, WV, Cin, Louisville, USF and TCU.
Need at least 10 teams.
Add UCF, Houston and Tulane.

I live in New Orleans now, great place to visit and recruit. Tulane is good academic school, plays baseball and plays in superdome. Tie into AQ conference and would improve recruiting. As good a fit in football as Duke and Vandy.

I would go right to 12 with Temple and SMU.

Would give WV, USF, TCU and maybe one other as top 25 football potential for 2011.

Good basketball re Uconn, WV, Cin, Louisville, Temple.

I would also ask Div 1aa football teams in BE to also join, saying are a football league also and even if not div 1A you have similar interests and if you want to upgrade you are in. This keeps (I think) Georgetown and Vill.

That is 14 teams for basketball and 12 for football.

Got to have rivals:

Rutgers/Uconn
USF/UCF
TCU/SMU
Tulane/Houston
Temple/Vill
Cin/Lou
WV and everyone
Georgetown and everyone for BB

The answer to your question is that the Big EAst football schools having broken off after the first raid would not have slowed Pitt and Syracuse accepting their offer to join the ACC by ten minutes. We would have the exact same football conference we have now, and a similar but smaller basketball one. Pitt and Syracuse didn't leave because they could be vetoed in membership decisions by basketball schools, or because they were associated with basketball schools. They left for a more prestigous (although not better) football conference with more prestigious universities and a better TV future.