Current Coaching Hierarchy Assessment

[DefenseBB]

With Kim winning her 3rd title and in a very strong position for next year, I want to assess the current ranking of the top coaches.
#1 Geno
#2 MM
#3 Kim, she closed the gap to MM with winning her 3rd to the aforementioned’s 2 titles.
4. Tara and while she had a good year and a good team for next year, she hasn’t won since 1992 and now her conference has developed 2 other National programs in Oregon and OSU with UCLA coming on strong. She always seems to get a pass on lack of titles given her decent success in the NCAA. Shouldn’t she have done more by now even with Geno and Pat dominating?
5. Jeff Walz but this was tough, he earned this because of more consistent top recruiting and sustained success over his peers below
6. Vic has created a great program and needs to show he can rebuild/reload with the loss of his best player ever. I think he will
7. Scott Rueck is showing he can attract top players to match his coaching acumen. He needs another Final Four and title game to maintain this spot. He did win a D3 title and is as good an X and O coach on here or better than those below.
8. Brenda Frese- we seem to ignore she’s won a title, made 2 other Final Fours, 3 Elite 8’s in her career and gets top 5 recruiting classes regularly. She also has developed a pretty good coaching tree. Not advancing past a Sweet 16 round in 4 years is a problem given how much talent she’s had...
9. Dawn Staley-what you say-#9? Are you crazy??? Maybe, but she’s only made one other Final Four to go with her 1 title and both were with Aja Wilson. Can she do it with another group? Her defections of 9 players over the past 4 recruiting classes (she didn’t have any recruits in 2015) including 4 this past week raises concern. So yeah, #9
10. Gary Blair solidified his spot for me this year with his success and close game against ND. He has all the players returning, he has a National Title and maybe he gets Chennedy to play more team ball. I am betting on it.

Ok, I know I may have slight some that my peers feel stronger about so let me know who and what your logic is.
Thanks

 

[TerpWomenFan]

With Kim winning her 3rd title and in a very strong position for next year, I want to assess the current ranking of the top coaches.
#1 Geno
#2 MM
#3 Kim, she closed the gap to MM with winning her 3rd to the aforementioned’s 2 titles.
4. Tara and while she had a good year and a good team for next year, she hasn’t won since 1992 and now her conference has developed 2 other National programs in Oregon and OSU with UCLA coming on strong. She always seems to get a pass on lack of titles given her decent success in the NCAA. Shouldn’t she have done more by now even with Geno and Pat dominating?
5. Jeff Walz but this was tough, he earned this because of more consistent top recruiting and sustained success over his peers below
6. Vic has created a great program and needs to show he can rebuild/reload with the loss of his best player ever. I think he will
7. Scott Rueck is showing he can attract top players to match his coaching acumen. He needs another Final Four and title game to maintain this spot. He did win a D3 title and is as good an X and O coach on here or better than those below.
8. Brenda Frese- we seem to ignore she’s won a title, made 2 other Final Fours, 3 Elite 8’s in her career and gets top 5 recruiting classes regularly. She also has developed a pretty good coaching tree. Not advancing past a Sweet 16 round in 4 years is a problem given how much talent she’s had...
9. Dawn Staley-what you say-#9? Are you crazy??? Maybe, but she’s only made one other Final Four to go with her 1 title and both were with Aja Wilson. Can she do it with another group? Her defections of 9 players over the past 4 recruiting classes (she didn’t have any recruits in 2015) including 4 this past week raises concern. So yeah, #9
10. Gary Blair solidified his spot for me this year with his success and close game against ND. He has all the players returning, he has a National Title and maybe he gets Chennedy to play more team ball. I am betting on it.

Ok, I know I may have slight some that my peers feel stronger about so let me know who and what your logic is.
Thanks

This is actually really good. Personally I would switch 3 and 4, 8 and 9 and the rest I would keep the same.

 

[DefenseBB]

This is actually really good. Personally I would switch 3 and 4, 8 and 9 and the rest I would keep the same.

Ok, but what is your reasoning ? For example, I switched Kim and Tara due to Kim having won all 3 titles since 2005 with 3 different sets of classes, as noted Tara last won 1992 with her other in 1990 both with Jen Azzi as the star. Tara’s been to plenty of FF (7) and titles (4) but only won twice. I think Kim is now the better coach based on more recent success. What is your counterpoint? No wrong choice, just want to hear the logic.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

I'm not sure I can "pick-em" between Tara and Kim, because they are very different styles and history.

Tara is indeed one of the very top coaches. She consistently has her team making deep NCAA runs. There are large numbers of players that she simply cannot recruit because they would not be admitted to Stanford. So to my mind she exceeds expectations, both because of national success before the PAC was otherwise any good and also because she has such recruiting limitations.

That is not taking anything away from Kim, who has had great recruiting success and is a wonderful coach.

I just think this is more of an "apples to oranges" comparison than most of the others.

And yes, Brenda suffers from under-achieving. Why, I don't know.

 

[Hayven]

1) Geno
2) Tara and MM
3) Kim
4) Jeff Waltz
5) Dawn
6) Scott
7) Brenda

Tara has not won any championships recently, but she’s one of the best in March, which is why I have her tied with MM.

 

[Bear11]

I can't find the video, but I remember a sound bite from the pregame presser for the 2017 Baylor-Stanford game. Kim said something along the lines of "our kids better come out and hustle, because I ain't going to be able to out-coach Tara". Perhaps a normal Mulkey motivational tactic, but obviously she respects Tara a lot. Personally, I put Tara and Kim about even after Geno with Muffet just behind, but there is no "right" order here.

 

[TerpWomenFan]

Ok, but what is your reasoning ? For example, I switched Kim and Tara due to Kim having won all 3 titles since 2005 with 3 different sets of classes, as noted Tara last won 1992 with her other in 1990 both with Jen Azzi as the star. Tara’s been to plenty of FF (7) and titles (4) but only won twice. I think Kim is now the better coach based on more recent success. What is your counterpoint? No wrong choice, just want to hear the logic.

Two things. I think Tara's body of work during her career is better. She went to 7 Final Fours in a ten year stretch (thanks mainly to the Ogwumike sisters). The 2nd thing is Tara does more with the talent she has than Baylor. The state of Texas is full of talented girls and Baylor gets more than their fair share of them. But their body of work over the last 10 years could have been better, especially the Griner/Odyssey Sims years. But the difference between Tara and Kim Mulkey is minuscule.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Good lists. Kelly Graves should probably be in a top 10? Has taken 2 different schools to an Elite 8, only coach ever to take 2 double digit seeds to the Elite 8, has gone that far 3 years in a row and now finally got over the hump and reached the Final 4.

 

[PacoBlaze]

1) Geno

Tara has not won any championships recently, but she’s one of the best in March, which is why I have her tied with MM.

I guess a coach needs to be one of the best in March and April in order to be near the top of the list, under Geno.

 

[CL82]

Why don't people feel that Mulkey just pushed her way to the #2 slot? 3 natties each seven years apart? Impressive.

I'm going:

Geno
Kim
Muffet
Tara
Jeff and Vic (tie)

 

[bballnut90]

With Kim winning her 3rd title and in a very strong position for next year, I want to assess the current ranking of the top coaches.
#1 Geno
#2 MM
#3 Kim, she closed the gap to MM with winning her 3rd to the aforementioned’s 2 titles.
4. Tara and while she had a good year and a good team for next year, she hasn’t won since 1992 and now her conference has developed 2 other National programs in Oregon and OSU with UCLA coming on strong. She always seems to get a pass on lack of titles given her decent success in the NCAA. Shouldn’t she have done more by now even with Geno and Pat dominating?
5. Jeff Walz but this was tough, he earned this because of more consistent top recruiting and sustained success over his peers below
6. Vic has created a great program and needs to show he can rebuild/reload with the loss of his best player ever. I think he will
7. Scott Rueck is showing he can attract top players to match his coaching acumen. He needs another Final Four and title game to maintain this spot. He did win a D3 title and is as good an X and O coach on here or better than those below.
8. Brenda Frese- we seem to ignore she’s won a title, made 2 other Final Fours, 3 Elite 8’s in her career and gets top 5 recruiting classes regularly. She also has developed a pretty good coaching tree. Not advancing past a Sweet 16 round in 4 years is a problem given how much talent she’s had...
9. Dawn Staley-what you say-#9? Are you crazy??? Maybe, but she’s only made one other Final Four to go with her 1 title and both were with Aja Wilson. Can she do it with another group? Her defections of 9 players over the past 4 recruiting classes (she didn’t have any recruits in 2015) including 4 this past week raises concern. So yeah, #9
10. Gary Blair solidified his spot for me this year with his success and close game against ND. He has all the players returning, he has a National Title and maybe he gets Chennedy to play more team ball. I am betting on it.

Ok, I know I may have slight some that my peers feel stronger about so let me know who and what your logic is.
Thanks

Brenda and Dawn should be higher. Brenda gets overlooked because people dont seem to like her antics or coaching style, but she has a deserved title, 2 other Final Fours and is very good at developing her players, provided they dont transfer. Her recent string of early exits hasnt been good but I'd absolutely put her ahead of Walz and Rueck based on results and overall ability to keep her program in the upper echelon. I'd rather had Rueck coach my team but he hasnt proven enough yet to be ahead of Frese or Staley at this point.

If you're going to call out Dawn for her transfers, then you need to call out Walz too. He has about a 50% transfer rate over the past decade. Walz is a good coach but one can argue a lot of his recent success is attributed to landing Durr and building a team around that. Let's see if he can maintain high success post Durr era. Dawn at least won a title and made another Final Four with her star. Dawn also led South Carolina to 4 straight #1 seeds. Dawn is also proving to be a stronger recruiter than Walz, an area Jeff gets a lot of credit but honestly is behind his peers if you look at the quality of top kids than come in. Dawn over Walz no question.

I think you hit the nail on the head with most assessments though. If I made my list itd be:
1. Geno-still the goliath in WCBB and Geno is the most respected coach

2. Muffet-clear cut #2 as the other goliath. 8 straight #1 seeds and 6 title game appearances in the last 9 years.

3. Kim-Baylor has absolutely dominated the Big 12 and despite some disappointing years, Baylor is consistently one of the most potent teams in the country.

4. Tara-shes a great coach no question, but people are softer on her than they should be. Tara hasnt won squat in 25+ years and has had the talent to win it several times but her squads havent been able to finish the job (namely 2008-2012). People hide behind the fact that Stanford has hard admission standards but ignore that she has a massive likelihood to land a kid if theyll qualify academically. It isnt as if she's short for talent. Great coach, I'm not questioning that, but I dont think shes in the conversation as the top 3 anymore since her teams havent been title threats in a long time (2012). That may change with Brink/Jones.

T5 Vic-back to back title appearances and another #1 seed with zero top 10 recruits was unheard of. One of the best at developing talent and putting cohesive teams on the court.

T5 Staley-shes made SC into a consistent national power. Has a monster class coming in and also does well incorporating transfers. This season was a disappointment and the latest transfers are cause for concern but Staley has completely resurrected 2 programs that were dead in the water.

7. Brenda-has kept Maryland a top 10 program for almost 15 years now. Consistently develops her kids and creates good teams despite mixed tournament results. Has 2 somewhat recent Final Fours and put together 2 very good squads post-Lexie Brown. On paper has a very good roster the next few years, she'll need to deliver to keep her spot.

8. Walz-has led Louisville to some Cinderella runs and the last two years did a stellar job creating Final Four caliber teams. Let's see how he does after losing his 3 seniors. This will be a big test for Jeff.

9. Rueck-as good as they come at developing kids and good teams. To crack this list higher he needs to get back to the Final Four and continue to land top quality kids. I think he could rise up this list big time but 1 Final Four and 1 other Elite 8 restricts him from doing so right now.

10. Graves-I thought he badly outcoached Vic in the regionals and overall has done a masterful job at Oregon. Could rise up fast too. He also has done a great job of identifying relatively unheralded players and landing them (ex. Sabally, Hebard, Cazorla). How much of his recent success is due to Ionescu? We'll find out in a couple of years. His track record at Gonzaga indicates he'll do just fine.

 

[biobioprof]

Good lists. Kelly Graves should probably be in a top 10? Has taken 2 different schools to an Elite 8, only coach ever to take 2 double digit seeds to the Elite 8, has gone that far 3 years in a row and now finally got over the hump and reached the Final 4.

I would absolutely include Graves, not just for his recent work with the Ducks but for how the Zags would often upset higher seeds in the tourney. He beat us in a 2 vs 7 game in 2010. That A&M team would get our only NC the next year, while Graves was taking an 11 seed to the E8.

 

[bballnut90]

Why don't people feel that Mulkey just pushed her way to the #2 slot? 3 natties each seven years apart? Impressive.

I'm going:

Geno
Kim
Muffet
Tara
Jeff and Vic (tie)

Cause titles arent everything. Kim has underachieved in many years (see 2013-2018) and didnt make 1 Final Four. Muffet has overachieved with her squads but has had the "fortune" of facing many undefeated or 1 loss teams in 5 of her 6 recent title appearances and was an underdog to even get there in many of them. From 2011-2015, Muffet had to face Stewart, Maya or Griner in every Final Four. That is brutal.

 

[SECbbfan24]

Having watched all these coaches over the years. Its been really fun to watch them all change and adjust as coaches to their times and personnel they have on their teams.

Geno obviously is #1

Tara hasn't won a national title since 1992 I think but she had a major stretch between 07-12 where she had 5 trips to the final four but had 0 titles to show for it. She is obviously one of the best coaches out there. She always has her team at the top of the PAC 12 and has her team competing on a national stage making major runs in the tournament.

Muffet has had ND among the elite since this past decade. 7 final four appearances since 2011 is incredible.

Kim is a great coach too, 3 NCAA titles since 2005. I thought her teams at times caved in when it counted most during a lot of late runs in the NCAAT over the years, specifically in the elite 8. She finally got them back over the hump this year. With the talent coming in over these next few years they look to not be slowing down either. Definitely among the best in the game today. She definitely did underachieve a couple times with a few of her teams from 2013-2018. I understand freak things happen and its march madness but she should have made at least another final four or two. She said she changed things up this year on the mental side going into the tournament, lets see if she can do it again next year. She did a phenomenal coaching job this year and for them to pull off the win vs ND when Cox went down was wonderful.

 

[CL82]

Cause titles arent everything. Kim has underachieved in many years (see 2013-2018) and didnt make 1 Final Four. Muffet has overachieved with her squads but has had the "fortune" of facing many undefeated or 1 loss teams in 5 of her 6 recent title appearances and was an underdog to even get there in many of them. From 2011-2015, Muffet had to face Stewart, Maya or Griner in every Final Four. That is brutal.

Don't disagree. On the other hand Muffet had 5 drafted WNBA players this year and fell short (though it was close) against Baylor with Cox on the bench.

 

[bballnut90]

Don't disagree. On the other hand Muffet had 5 drafted WNBA players this year and fell short (though it was close) against Baylor with Cox on the bench.

True, but with that logic Muffet could be ahead of Geno for beating him in back to Final Four fours, plus this year Geno had 3 number one recruits on the roster.

Cox was only out 11 minutes and ND outscored Baylor by 11 points during that stretch. ND had 5 players drafted but if any of Cox, Smith, or Landrum were eligible they would've been drafted too, giving Baylor 5, plus Cox would've been #1 overall ahead of Young.

Kim is a GREAT coach and I've restored a lot of confidence in her after this season, but as it stands Baylor missed 6 of the last 7 Final Fours despite having numerous #1 seeds and talent to win it all, so I think Muffet definitely deserves the #2 slot over her.

 

[biobioprof]

Cause titles arent everything. Kim has underachieved in many years (see 2013-2018) and didnt make 1 Final Four. Muffet has overachieved with her squads but has had the "fortune" of facing many undefeated or 1 loss teams in 5 of her 6 recent title appearances and was an underdog to even get there in many of them. From 2011-2015, Muffet had to face Stewart, Maya or Griner in every Final Four. That is brutal.

And similar arguments apply to Tara, IMO. Tara has 13 and a lot of them, including the most recent, had nothing to do with Ogumwike sisters. Since Baylor's first FF in 2005, Kim has gotten back to the FF in 2010, 2012, and 2019 for a total of 4 trips. Since 2005 Tara has been to the FF in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2017, or 7 times (Same # as Muffet: 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019).

2008: runner up to Tennessee
2009: lost to undefeated UConn in semis
2010: runner up to UConn
2011: lost to eventual NC TAMU in semis
2012: lost to Baylor (Griner) in semis
2014: lost to undefeated UConn in semis
2017: lost to eventual NC S. Carolina in semis

 

[bballnut90]

And similar arguments apply to Tara, IMO. Tara has 13 and a lot of them, including the most recent, had nothing to do with Ogumwike sisters. Since Baylor's first FF in 2005, Kim has gotten back to the FF in 2010, 2012, and 2019 for a total of 4 trips. Since 2005 Tara has been to the FF in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2017, or 7 times (Same # as Muffet: 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2019).

2008: runner up to Tennessee
2009: lost to undefeated UConn in semis
2010: runner up to UConn
2011: lost to eventual NC TAMU in semis
2012: lost to Baylor (Griner) in semis
2014: lost to undefeated UConn in semis
2017: lost to eventual NC S. Carolina in semis

Fair point. I give more credit to Kim though because the last time anyone really thought Stanford had a legitimate shot to win was probably 2012 with the Ogwumikes. Despite underachieving, Baylor looked like a legitimate title contender in 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018 and just won it all in 2019. Notre Dame has been a legitimate title contender every year from 2011-2019. Stanford hasn't.

When looking at how coaches rank all time, I think Tara has a strong argument to be tied to or even ahead of Kim, but in terms of current coach hierarchy, I think Kim is ahead of Tara.

 

[eebmg]

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#3489 Holly Warlick

 

[biobioprof]

Fair point. I give more credit to Kim though because the last time anyone really thought Stanford had a legitimate shot to win was probably 2012 with the Ogwumikes. Despite underachieving, Baylor looked like a legitimate title contender in 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018 and just won it all in 2019. Notre Dame has been a legitimate title contender every year from 2011-2019. Stanford hasn't.

When looking at how coaches rank all time, I think Tara has a strong argument to be tied to or even ahead of Kim, but in terms of current coach hierarchy, I think Kim is ahead of Tara.

However, while Kim has the title this year, Tara has scoreboard for this year's head to head game.

wrt Notre Dame, I think it's a stretch to say they were a legit contender every year from 2011-2019. There was this particular UConn team I'm thinking of ...

 

[CL82]

True, but with that logic Muffet could be ahead of Geno for beating him in back to Final Four fours, plus this year Geno had 3 number one recruits on the roster.

3>2
11>>>>>>>>>2

 

[biobioprof]

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#3489 Holly Warlick

Not a current coach! It does make me wonder how many D1 WBB coaches have there been in the entire history of NCAA WBB.


Because Holly >> Jimmy Dykes.

 

[bballnut90]

However, while Kim has the title this year, Tara has scoreboard for this year's head to head game.

wrt Notre Dame, I think it's a stretch to say they were a legit contender every year from 2011-2019. There was this particular UConn team I'm thinking of ...

I don't think it's a stretch at all:
2011-runner up in close game to A&M. Easily could've won.
2012-runner up to Baylor, had the game close in the 2nd half but Peters couldn't avoid foul trouble which led to a big romp once Griner got going
2013-lost to UCONN after beating them 3x that year. Diggins/McBride had horrible shooting nights. If they win they likely throttle Louisville for the title.
2014-undefeated and lose their only strong post in Achonwa in the Elite 8. Probably don't win, but definitely a legitimate threat to UCONN
2015-played UCONN close, KML hit 2 big buckets to get separation needed, ended in 10 point win.
2016-massive upset by Stanford. Not sure ND ever had a real shot at beating UCONN this year despite playing very competitively during much of the regular season meeting.
2017-very possibly win it all if Turner doesn't tear her ACL in the NCAAs
2018-won it all
2019-lost by 1 point in the title game

The only ones that are really debatable are 2012 and 2016. 2012 they were still runner up and 2016 they finished with just 2 losses and were a very strong team.

 

[bballnut90]

3>2
11>>>>>>>>>2

Like I said, you have to look at more than just the number of trophies each coach has to evaluate their spot in the current coaching hierarchy. Since we're talking about a current assessment, I'm mostly concerned about production within the last 10 years rather than what was accomplished prior. Therefore, I wouldn't highlight Muffet's 2001 title, Tara's wins in the 90s or Kim's 05 season since those days are long gone. If we're looking at an all-time thread, that's a different story.

In addition to results and player development, a big factor for me with me is how relevant team is in the landscape of women's basketball. How feared are they by their opponents. Every year Notre Dame is steadily top 3-4 all season and close to the top of the "last team I want to face before the title game" list, only topped by UCONN. Baylor is usually in that conversation but has struggled making it to the final weekend. Stanford is rarely spoken of that way, but is more of a pleasant surprise when they make the Final Four or go on a tournament run.

 

[CL82]

Like I said, you have to look at more than just the number of trophies each coach has to evaluate their spot in the current coaching hierarchy.

Sure, but you don't eliminate either. In the end, the goal of every team is to win national championships. So any argument that weights other things higher is always at a disadvantage.