Caitlin vs. Pete

[Plebe]

All that said, but for the injuries, I think Paige is the better player in every aspect of the game, and she’ll show it in the years to come once she leaves the injuries behind. The scene with Maya and Caitlin only serves to underline this: Maya is a much better player than Caitlin will ever be, and isn’t about scoring records. It’s about heart and character, just like it is with Paige. Maya made teams win.

Character? How ironic.

 

[Plebe]

Does anyone know offhand where Maravich ranks in assists?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I say forget all the asterisks because...just about every record would have one if you dig and dissect enough. Clark is a prolific scorer, but the reality is that on a more balanced offensive team this probably wouldn't happen. But it did and it's to her credit.

 

[typhaon]

They were saying AIAW, association for intercollegiate athletics for women. Pre NCAA , before NCAA got involved with women’s athletics. Look it up. Pearl Moore. Look her up also. There were phenomenal female players before Caitlin Clark… she riding on their coattails. Before talking backyard whiffle ball, learn some women’s basketball history for Pete’s sake. Pun intended

If you read my comment, before I said anything about whiffle ball, I literally talked about how comparisons to past players are good because they expose people to some history. I didn't mention NAIA because I thought it was a funny joke. I thought I heard them talking about that and active scorers. If I made a mistake, I guess I misheard.

Thanks for the information re: AIAW.

 

[Bone Dog]

This comes off as a back handed compliment. Why is this at all necessary in this thread? Are you suggesting Clark comes up short in terms of heart and character? And what exactly has she been doing at Iowa for 4 years, if not making teams win?

It's not meant to be backhanded. It's meant to be limited to the actual dimensions of her achievement. There's too much talk about her transformational talent bouncing around these days. Don't you think so too? She is a great player, as I said above, awesome even. But has she transformed the game? Did Kelsey Plum? Did Pete Maravich? The answer to all of these is no. But they each played (or play) it really well.

So let's celebrate her for what she's actually done, which is definitely worth celebrating. And if she manages to win an NC at Iowa this year, there will be even more to celebrate, and I look forward to that too. But let's not diminish her now by making her into a GOAT, or any other excessive thing. She's got more to do before she enters any such conversation.

I hope Indiana drafts her and she and Berger and Boston make a dynasty and show what they're really capable of.

 

[Husker Husky]

I'm certainly not going to disrespect CC. She is one of the all time greats. But, when discussing this, I'm pointing out that it's apples to oranges. Yes, there is the 3-point line, 4yrs vs 3 years, etc. But, I especially target the smaller ball at the same size hoop. While the smaller ball is often mentioned, I haven't seem anyone point out that with the smaller ball she has 27.5 square inches more area to drain it, and to avoid the dreaded "clank". So, once again, CC is a great player. And, I understand the need to hype. But, let's keep things in perspective. One last thing. I didn't particularly like Pistol Pete, since I considered a better moniker to be "Machine Gun Pete".

 

[cohenzone]

About the most ridiculous things in sports is mentioning men’s and women’s records together for hoops and I’ve heard it done for high school softball and baseball: particularly team win totals. . It diminishes both the female and the male. They all do something remarkable but the only thing the same in hoops is the court and the ball, although the women’s ball I guess is still a little smaller.

Maravich was incredible and could do things with his ball handling and passing Clark can’t dream of doing: and I think she is terrific.

 

[nwhoopfan]

It's not meant to be backhanded. It's meant to be limited to the actual dimensions of her achievement. There's too much talk about her transformational talent bouncing around these days. Don't you think so too? She is a great player, as I said above, awesome even. But has she transformed the game? Did Kelsey Plum? Did Pete Maravich? The answer to all of these is no. But they each played (or play) it really well.

So let's celebrate her for what she's actually done, which is definitely worth celebrating. And if she manages to win an NC at Iowa this year, there will be even more to celebrate, and I look forward to that too. But let's not diminish her now by making her into a GOAT, or any other excessive thing. She's got more to do before she enters any such conversation.

I hope Indiana drafts her and she and Berger and Boston make a dynasty and show what they're really capable of.

How many players have truly transformed the game? That is an extremely high bar. Since you injected Maya and Paige into this conversation, I would say neither of them transformed the game either.

 

[jibsey]

12 of Maravich’s shots every game on average were 3 pointers. Then of course an entire year lost to freshman basketball. So he would have averaged 55 points a game not in the 40’s. Insane isn’t it? I was a kid at the time “watching” this and we didn’t have basketball coverage like now so you went to newspapers, SI, smoke signals, whatever, but he was exciting like nobody you’ve ever seen to watch. She’s great but just not in Pete’s league of greatness. JMO.

 

[IArick]

Pete and Caitlin

The link above take you to a pretty cool video that was posted last night on youtube. It is uncanny the similarities between how Pete and Caitlin played.

 

[IArick]

About the most ridiculous things in sports is mentioning men’s and women’s records together for hoops and I’ve heard it done for high school softball and baseball: particularly team win totals. . It diminishes both the female and the male. They all do something remarkable but the only thing the same in hoops is the court and the ball, although the women’s ball I guess is still a little smaller.

Maravich was incredible and could do things with his ball handling and passing Clark can’t dream of doing: and I think she is terrific.

You might want to watch the video I just posted.

 

[Bone Dog]

How many players have truly transformed the game? That is an extremely high bar. Since you injected Maya and Paige into this conversation, I would say neither of them transformed the game either.

I agree. I happen to like Paige best of all active college players. But she was not transformative, no matter how often people called her that. She's merely awesome, like Caitlin.

Who has transformed the women's game? I'm sure we can all come up with a few names. The one I think of -- and feel free to disagree -- is Rebecca Lobo, though that happened mainly after college when she opted to join the WNBA. She gave that fledgling league credibility

 

[Blacketh’D]

She’s not being pitted as better than him just cuz she broke his varsity record. She literally just has more varsity point totals and that’s it. Yes he got screwed for his era and being a freshman didn’t count, but this man had the ultimate green light. Even with his insane scoring numbers, he’s not even really the best college basketball player of all time. He’s no Kareem Abdul Jabarr. His legacy is just his offensive potency. So Clark is sort of similar in that same vein but she’s getting a lot more praise for the women’s game and growth than Maravich ever got for the men’s side.

If we are putting an asterisk on varsity total points simply because rules didn’t allow Maravich to do that freshman year, it seems silly. Freshman points don’t count. So all those 700 points don’t matter anyway. The highest varsity mark belongs to Clarke. There is no debate there. Why all this talk about it’s not really passing Maravich?

 

[Cornell Lt]

So, today Caitlin passes Pete's record. I know, I know. He didn't get the advantage of a 3pt. line, and he didn't play against women.

But why haven't any men broken his record? They also have the 3pt. line now, after all.

Biggest difference? The men don't stay in college for 4 years.

No men broke the record because they were not as good as Pistol Pete...period. And remember Pete set the record in 3 year as Freshman weren't allowed to play "varsity" ball.

 

[willtalk]

In a one on one matchup, Gaitlin would absolutely destroy Pistol Pete. No contest at all. Of course I think any of us could beat the Pistol's dead corpse.

Those of us old enough will also remember him for his too large floppy socks.

 

[BBallF]

So, today Caitlin passes Pete's record. I know, I know. He didn't get the advantage of a 3pt. line, and he didn't play against women.

But why haven't any men broken his record? They also have the 3pt. line now, after all.

Biggest difference? The men don't stay in college for 4 years.

I don't agree. The reason is because he was one of the greatest offensive players the world has ever seen. Dale Brown was an assistant at LSU when the Pistol was there. He kept a shot chart. According to him if there was a 3 point shot he would have averaged 57 points a game.

 

[BigTenGuy]

I don't agree. The reason is because he was one of the greatest offensive players the world has ever seen. Dale Brown was an assistant at LSU when the Pistol was there. He kept a shot chart. According to him if there was a 3 point shot he would have averaged 57 points a game.

Pete was unbelievable. A genius according to Bill Walton, who loves both Clark and Pete, and compares them favorably. But, if this were baseball, we would be talking about era effects, because the era in which Pete played was the highest-scoring and perimeter-minimal-defense era ever. It's not a coincidence that 5 of the top 7 scorers in MBB history, based on average, played from 1968-73: Pete Maravich (1); Austin Carr (2); Calvin Murphy (4); Bo Lamar (5); and Rick Mount (7).

I also liked Coach Bluder's post-game comment the other day, saying Woodard had the "real record" before Caitlin, and let's not use Pete's or men's records to set the bar for women.

 

[wbbhoops278]

Man the disrespect is real and a few comments that make me really question why some people are a fan of WOMEN'S college basketball. Some of the obviously jaded comments about Clark (across multiple threads) really make me question our fan base and whether it's people that legitimately love the sport and root for their team or they just want to always be "on top". The more the huskies have come down from the Stewie years, it's starting to make me think it's the latter because we still have a pretty amazing team and yet people act like this.

Given sooo many people want to be dismissive. He took almost 40 shots a game and shot 43% from the field. Clark has shot 46% on 20 shots per game. Different eras. Different game. Different oppositional talent. He deserved it back then and she deserves it just as much now.

I don't think anyone using the term "better" is right at all. It's a record, which are made to be broken. Someone else pointed out that it was great her breaking the record shined light on his accomplishments during a very different era. I agree and I think it's so cool. This does not have to be the either/or argument that people are making it.

 

[my2cents]

The only thing they have in common was they both became "spectacles" for scoring.
People flocked to seem them play and score a lot of points.
Pete, to this day, was one of kind. As good as Cark is, she is no way even close to him in basketball ability.
Not sure why there is a need to combine records in totally different sports. World records in swimming and track do not become "unisex".

 

[The deacon]

As good as Cark is, she is no way even close to him in basketball ability.

I was a huge fan of Pete when he was in college and in the pros, and feel he was among the most entertaining players ever... still, I believe you might have overstated here. Caitlin is a brilliant talent, nothing less.

 

[ConwayGmck]

Man the disrespect is real and a few comments that make me really question why some people are a fan of WOMEN'S college basketball. Some of the obviously jaded comments about Clark (across multiple threads) really make me question our fan base and whether it's people that legitimately love the sport and root for their team or they just want to always be "on top". The more the huskies have come down from the Stewie years, it's starting to make me think it's the latter because we still have a pretty amazing team and yet people act like this.

Given sooo many people want to be dismissive. He took almost 40 shots a game and shot 43% from the field. Clark has shot 46% on 20 shots per game. Different eras. Different game. Different oppositional talent. He deserved it back then and she deserves it just as much now.

I don't think anyone using the term "better" is right at all. It's a record, which are made to be broken. Someone else pointed out that it was great her breaking the record shined light on his accomplishments during a very different era. I agree and I think it's so cool. This does not have to be the either/or argument that people are making it.

I think people really do not understand this. Everyone always talks about Maravich's points that he scored. They talk about how no one will ever score what he scored in three years, even if they play FOUR years. Detroit Mercy's Antoine Davis finished just 3 points shy of Pistol Pete's record, and he needed FIVE years to get that close, with an extra Covid year.

But while everyone always talks about those career points in just three seasons, NO ONE EVER TALKS about the "OTHER" career record Pistol Pete owns, that NO ONE will come close to breaking, and that is Maravich's career shot attempts, which is 3,166 attempts. In 83 career games, that comes to 38.1 attempts per game for Maravich's entire career.

And THAT is because NO HEAD COACH in MBB before or since Pistol Pete has or will ever allow a player to take those kinds of attempts in a game, unless its a multiple overtime game. But for an entire SEASON? Much less for THREE SEASONS STRAIGHT??

There have been MANY head coaches in college basketball whose sons played for them. A good number of those, their sons were actually star players for them too. But none of them ever let the entire program evolve and flow through their son, or anybody else's son, like Press Maravich vowed to do for his Petey, even BEFORE he got the job at LSU.

But Pete Maravich was a great basketball player, and elite player as special as any other blue-chip elite, "one and done" or whatever, that has played the game. As commented on above, Pistol Pete averaged 44-45% FG shooting for his career at LSU. If Pete had averaged 50% for his career at LSU, do you know where he' rank in college basketball in that? Not even in the top 300 all-time. To rate the top 250, you have to have averaged better than 55% for your career.

And when Maravich rose to the professional ranks, his shooting didn't improve much beyond that. He averaged 44.1% from the field during his NBA career, but he only averaged 24.2 pts per game. And that's not chopped liver either: Maravich led the NBA in scoring one season, and was one of the top dynamic scorers in the league during his era. But the only reason why Maravich averaged 44-45 ppg at LSU, and only 24 ppg in the NBA, was because his father wasn't his coach in the NBA. And NO NBA HEAD COACH was going to let a player take 38 FG attempts per game.

Even in Maravich's NBA career's case, he still averaged 21.3 attempts per gm for his injury-stunted NBA career, which isn't chopped liver either. Top scorers in the NBA will have a number of seasons where they surpass 20 FG attempts per gm, but rarely do they have a long career of averaging that. Michael Jordan had the greatest career average, at 22.9 atts/gm. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 22.5. Allen Iverson had 21.8.

But 38.1 attempts??? And average 14 free throw attempts for his college career too, making an average of almost 11 FTs per game? Maravich owns the #1, #2, and #3 most field goals attempted in a single season. Bill Mlkvy of Temple had one season where he took 964 attempts in the single season, in 1950-51. Only converted on 31.4% of them, but averaged 29.2 ppg that season. The next season - his senior year - he averaged a paltry 14.2 attempts/gm in 24 gms. They must've been short-handed his junior season.

Someone mentioned Austin Carr and Calvin Murphy in another post above. Both Carr and Murphy averaged 34.6 ppg and 33.1 ppg for their 3-year college careers, respectively. Not too far off from Maravich's average. They both totaled 2,560 and 2,548 pts, respectively. The reason why neither challenged Maravich for his scoring title, was because they averaged only 26.0 and 28.1 FG attempts per game, respectively. Murphy had a similar FG % for his career as Maravich did, but Carr averaged .528 for his. What if Carr's head coach gave him the same opportunities to score that Press Maravich gave his own son? Perhaps today we'd be comparing Caitlin Clark with Austin Carr, instead???

Finally, over the years people have done with Maravich the same thing they've done with Woodstock, JFK's assasination, etc. They have added their own personal flourishes to history. Pete Maravich took the VAST majority of his field goal attempts from WITHIN the three-point distance. Closer to 90-95% of his attempts. Pete wasn't attempting to take shots from three-point range any more than he was attempting to take shots from FIVE-point range, because NEITHER shot range was a thing that even EXISTED in MBB during his time at LSU. That is just a bunch of Paul Bunyon tall-tale telling from his supporters.

Most of Maravich's jump shots took place within the 3-pt. distance - anywhere inside the 10-20 ft. distance from the goal, and closer to 10-15 ft. distance. His favorite spot to take jump shots was on the right side of the lane, just outside the free-throw line distance. Other than that, Pistol Pete would slash to the basket, drive hard and make dazzling layups at the basket. Perhaps IF there was a thing such as the 3-pt. shot in college basketball at the time, Maravich would have the incentive to take those shots and perhaps he might have thrived there.

Maravich only attempted 15 3-pt. shots in his entire NBA career, his final one in 1979-80 in the NBA's inaugurable season of allowing the shot, and he converted on 10 of those. So yes, he could shoot from that range. 15 attempts in 43 games. But the way to score in college - the BEST way to score - in Pistol Pete's time was to take the ball to the basket. Even AFTER the NBA started using the 3-pt. shot, it took YEARS before players started using the shot as a major weapon in their arsenal, and not just take them occasionally like bonus shots. If the college ranks in Maravich's day allowed for the 3-pt. shot, he'd probably only take 1-2 attempts a game, if that many.

 

[The deacon]

I think people really do not understand this. Everyone always talks about Maravich's points that he scored. They talk about how no one will ever score what he scored in three years, even if they play FOUR years. Detroit Mercy's Antoine Davis finished just 3 points shy of Pistol Pete's record, and he needed FIVE years to get that close, with an extra Covid year.

But while everyone always talks about those career points in just three seasons, NO ONE EVER TALKS about the "OTHER" career record Pistol Pete owns, that NO ONE will come close to breaking, and that is Maravich's career shot attempts, which is 3,166 attempts. In 83 career games, that comes to 38.1 attempts per game for Maravich's entire career.

And THAT is because NO HEAD COACH in MBB before or since Pistol Pete has or will ever allow a player to take those kinds of attempts in a game, unless its a multiple overtime game. But for an entire SEASON? Much less for THREE SEASONS STRAIGHT??

There have been MANY head coaches in college basketball whose sons played for them. A good number of those, their sons were actually star players for them too. But none of them ever let the entire program evolve and flow through their son, or anybody else's son, like Press Maravich vowed to do for his Petey, even BEFORE he got the job at LSU.

But Pete Maravich was a great basketball player, and elite player as special as any other blue-chip elite, "one and done" or whatever, that has played the game. As commented on above, Pistol Pete averaged 44-45% FG shooting for his career at LSU. If Pete had averaged 50% for his career at LSU, do you know where he' rank in college basketball in that? Not even in the top 300 all-time. To rate the top 250, you have to have averaged better than 55% for your career.

And when Maravich rose to the professional ranks, his shooting didn't improve much beyond that. He averaged 44.1% from the field during his NBA career, but he only averaged 24.2 pts per game. And that's not chopped liver either: Maravich led the NBA in scoring one season, and was one of the top dynamic scorers in the league during his era. But the only reason why Maravich averaged 44-45 ppg at LSU, and only 24 ppg in the NBA, was because his father wasn't his coach in the NBA. And NO NBA HEAD COACH was going to let a player take 38 FG attempts per game.

Even in Maravich's NBA career's case, he still averaged 21.3 attempts per gm for his injury-stunted NBA career, which isn't chopped liver either. Top scorers in the NBA will have a number of seasons where they surpass 20 FG attempts per gm, but rarely do they have a long career of averaging that. Michael Jordan had the greatest career average, at 22.9 atts/gm. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 22.5. Allen Iverson had 21.8.

But 38.1 attempts??? And average 14 free throw attempts for his college career too, making an average of almost 11 FTs per game? Maravich owns the #1, #2, and #3 most field goals attempted in a single season. Bill Mlkvy of Temple had one season where he took 964 attempts in the single season, in 1950-51. Only converted on 31.4% of them, but averaged 29.2 ppg that season. The next season - his senior year - he averaged a paltry 14.2 attempts/gm in 24 gms. They must've been short-handed his junior season.

Someone mentioned Austin Carr and Calvin Murphy in another post above. Both Carr and Murphy averaged 34.6 ppg and 33.1 ppg for their 3-year college careers, respectively. Not too far off from Maravich's average. They both totaled 2,560 and 2,548 pts, respectively. The reason why neither challenged Maravich for his scoring title, was because they averaged only 26.0 and 28.1 FG attempts per game, respectively. Murphy had a similar FG % for his career as Maravich did, but Carr averaged .528 for his. What if Carr's head coach gave him the same opportunities to score that Press Maravich gave his own son? Perhaps today we'd be comparing Caitlin Clark with Austin Carr, instead???

Finally, over the years people have done with Maravich the same thing they've done with Woodstock, JFK's assasination, etc. They have added their own personal flourishes to history. Pete Maravich took the VAST majority of his field goal attempts from WITHIN the three-point distance. Closer to 90-95% of his attempts. Pete wasn't attempting to take shots from three-point range any more than he was attempting to take shots from FIVE-point range, because NEITHER shot range was a thing that even EXISTED in MBB during his time at LSU. That is just a bunch of Paul Bunyon tall-tale telling from his supporters.

Most of Maravich's jump shots took place within the 3-pt. distance - anywhere inside the 10-20 ft. distance from the goal, and closer to 10-15 ft. distance. His favorite spot to take jump shots was on the right side of the lane, just outside the free-throw line distance. Other than that, Pistol Pete would slash to the basket, drive hard and make dazzling layups at the basket. Perhaps IF there was a thing such as the 3-pt. shot in college basketball at the time, Maravich would have the incentive to take those shots and perhaps he might have thrived there.

Maravich only attempted 15 3-pt. shots in his entire NBA career, his final one in 1979-80 in the NBA's inaugurable season of allowing the shot, and he converted on 10 of those. So yes, he could shoot from that range. 15 attempts in 43 games. But the way to score in college - the BEST way to score - in Pistol Pete's time was to take the ball to the basket. Even AFTER the NBA started using the 3-pt. shot, it took YEARS before players started using the shot as a major weapon in their arsenal, and not just take them occasionally like bonus shots. If the college ranks in Maravich's day allowed for the 3-pt. shot, he'd probably only take 1-2 attempts a game, if that many.

Yikes! Bitter much about the attention Pistol Pete is getting? I appreciate that you took the time to clear everything up for us...

 

[my2cents]

I was a huge fan of Pete when he was in college and in the pros, and feel he was among the most entertaining players ever... still, I believe you might have overstated here. Caitlin is a brilliant talent, nothing less.

I did not disparage Clark at all. The thread title PM vs. CC, asks for opinions. I just stated mine, and unlike Gus Johnson, I did see Pete play.

 

[The deacon]

I did not disparage Clark at all. The thread title PM vs. CC, asks for opinions. I just stated mine, and unlike Gus Johnson, I did see Pete play.

Fair enough, my2cents. IMO, saying 'As good as Clark is, she is no way even close to him in basketball ability' is not exactly a compliment.'

I happen to think her basketball skills are comparable, perhaps not quite as good, but comparable to Pete's. IMO.

 

[fomalhaut]

Does anyone know offhand where Maravich ranks in assists?

Sports Reference lists him at 425 assists in three years at LSU. 636 assists gets you in the top 250 all time, so he's well down the list.