OT: Boneyard Lawyers

[Mr. French]

I did what the CT Bar calls a conditional retirement that allows me to avoid paying all state and Bar imposed annual professional costs and to “un-retire” on a simple filing. The conditional status allows the retiree to handle matters related to their own family and unpaid pro bono type services. So in effect the license is retained on a limited basis.

This makes a lot of sense for states to do - before I looked into it I honestly assumed most states would be similar, because it makes sense. But I should have realized most states will not do this, because it makes sense.

 

[bendm]

do you actively practice in any of those states other than Mass? sounds like you are in house counsel. do you not retain external counsel if you have to file an appearance on behalf of your co. out of state, or cant you at least appear pro hac vice?

i waived into WA from CT and have no interest in ever practicing in the latter again. i especially dont want to bother with the extra CLE requirements. how do you keep track of CLE reqs and costs for so many states??? CLE costs are way more than bar dues.

 

[HuskyHawk]

do you actively practice in any of those states other than Mass? sounds like you are in house counsel. do you not retain external counsel if you have to file an appearance on behalf of your co. out of state, or cant you at least appear pro hac vice?

i waived into WA from CT and have no interest in ever practicing in the latter again. i especially dont want to bother with the extra CLE requirements. how do you keep track of CLE reqs and costs for so many states??? CLE costs are way more than bar dues.

@BigErnMcCracken because he asked the same kinds of questions. I’m not on the litigation side of things, so no, I won’t ever need to do that. I’m commercial/transactional with some IP and product regulatory stuff. The company is big enough that they’ll never need me to make an appearance. I suppose that could be different if I change jobs. CLE is waived for inactive so I’m set there.

I’ll just pay it this year. It’s just frustrating that there is no easy way to get out of it. California goes to 70 and Missouri to 75. I plan to be done working before 65, or maybe go part time.

 

[temery]

Don't lawyers make that much in an hour?

Wouldn't normally post this during the season, but there isn't much of a season happening. I know there are lots of lawyers here, seemingly a disproportionate number. Plus a law student or two.

As I get older, I'm beginning to be annoyed by bar dues. I can bill my Mass bar dues to the company, but I have three inactive fees to pay as well. California is exorbitant at $183.40 and Missouri just doubled the inactive fee to $100. Kansas is a relative bargain at $65. California will let me "resign" and presumably not pay the fee (although they don't make that clear). They otherwise stop billing at the age of 70. Missouri has no way to resign or relinquish your license and charges you until you are 75! Neither has a "retired" status. Kansas lets me elect "Retired" status at age of 66. They explicitly say there is no fee. So I can look forward to paying most these fees while on Social Security. Wonderful. Massachusetts does have a retired status and doesn't say when it starts or whether you stop paying.

Have any of you tried to "resign" or "retire"? I really don't know what the impact of "resigning" in California would be while still being active in Massachusetts. I am wary of taking that step at this time. On the other hand, I have much better uses for the $283 I currently have due. I'd gladly donate it rather than give it to these extortionists. It certainly could become a couple of very nice bottles of Scotch.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Don't lawyers make that much in an hour?

Yes, certainly they bill more than that an hour in private practice. I'm not that concerned about it except for the generally senselessness of it, and the fact that they will ask me to pay it when I am not working, so making $0 an hour. It is absolutely a first world problem of the highest order.

 

[8893]

Don't lawyers make that much in an hour?

Cheap ones.

 

[QDOG5]

The bar dues are a complete scam. It’s ridiculous to have them in this and age. Same with the bar exam in general.

Don’t even get me stated on the ABA who doesn’t think that their primary goal should be support attorneys and further the practice of law.

When you mention "same with the bar exam" are you saying do away with the fee or do away the exam? My son just passed the bar in Illinois. It was postponed twice and eventually was completed online, at home, with certain security measures in place. The length/breadth of the exam was reduced in half. During the postponement there was a push to allow this years Illinois law school graduates to become lawyers without having to take the exam. I learned that Wisconsin is the only state that doesn't require a bar exam if you graduate from an in state accredited law school. How do the attorneys out there feel about eliminating exam requirement.

 

[the Q]

When you mention "same with the bar exam" are you saying do away with the fee or do away the exam? My son just passed the bar in Illinois. It was postponed twice and eventually was completed online, at home, with certain security measures in place. The length/breadth of the exam was reduced in half. During the postponement there was a push to allow this years Illinois law school graduates to become lawyers without having to take the exam. I learned that Wisconsin is the only state that doesn't require a bar exam if you graduate from an in state accredited law school. How do the attorneys out feel about eliminating exam requirement.

imo the legal profession should be an apprentice model. And even the states that offer that seem to require nonsense like not getting paid.

but it’ll never happen because these too much fat to trim and higher Ed’s take in massive profits from law schools. Far more than undergrad cause they don’t need all the other bells and whistles

 

[the Q]

When you mention "same with the bar exam" are you saying do away with the fee or do away the exam? My son just passed the bar in Illinois. It was postponed twice and eventually was completed online, at home, with certain security measures in place. The length/breadth of the exam was reduced in half. During the postponement there was a push to allow this years Illinois law school graduates to become lawyers without having to take the exam. I learned that Wisconsin is the only state that doesn't require a bar exam if you graduate from an in state accredited law school. How do the attorneys out feel about eliminating exam requirement.

the bar exam is old and antiquated and doesn’t even resemble the practice of law (it’s actually malpractice since you aren’t doing proper research to answer problems).

It still exists because everyone else had to suffer through it

 

[OldBosd]

Machine Learning is going to play a number of the legal profession.

Most research will be done faster and cheaper using AI and much much much higher quality.

The quality part alone will be a killer.

This is where Lawyers are going to do their best work. Fight tooth and nail to protect their profession

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

How do the attorneys out feel about eliminating exam requirement.

It's an absurd memory exercise. The only component that even remotely forecasts one's ability to practice law is the part where they give you the file and ask you to analyze it (and they might have done away with that part, I have no idea). It seems like a rite of passage at this point and that's about it.

 

[bendm]

How do the attorneys out feel about eliminating exam requirement.

it's even less indicative of competence than the logic games are on the LSAT but at the same time the industry would be worse off if there were 25% more lawyers running around out there than there are now.

 

[bendm]

I’m not on the litigation side of things, so no, I won’t ever need to do that.

sounds like you are keeping the licenses out of habit and they arent doing you any good. as soon as i hit 5 years of active practice in WA i'm not wasting the time and money on CT CLEs and bar dues.

 

[QDOG5]

I see there are 6 six states that have some combination of law school and apprenticeships. The apprentice route seems to result in a lower bar exam pass rate. Maybe Wisconsin has it correct- Beer, Cheese and no Bar Exam.

 

[UConn Esq]

the pain of CLE (NJ requires 50% of credits live!)

Just an FYI that during the pandemic the NJ Bar relaxed the in person rule for CLEs. I made sure I got all mine done and the carry over for next time via the computer.

 

[Chuck]

Just an FYI that during the pandemic the NJ Bar relaxed the in person rule for CLEs. I made sure I got all mine done and the carry over for next time.

Yup! My two year cycle started in January. I spent the first month working from home with CLE's running the background. Done through 2021!

I practice in a very niche area and in a county where there are never any decent local live options. I go to an industry conference every couple years that gets me most of my live credits, but I'm always scrambling at the end for a few and have to go to some brutally boring session.

 

[the Q]

Next best thing is for the ABA to go under. They’re scum as well.

Let an organization with real integrity and leadership take over

 

[Improviser]

imo the legal profession should be an apprentice model. And even the states that offer that seem to require nonsense like not getting paid.

but it’ll never happen because these too much fat to trim and higher Ed’s take in massive profits from law schools. Far more than undergrad cause they don’t need all the other bells and whistles

You mentioned apprentice programs. Actually, Northeastern Law in Boston, has one as the link below indicates.

Co-op - School of Law

www.northeastern.edu

I wish I had that when I went to Law School. Theirs combines classes at the law school with job training.

Regarding some of the other posters comments on not needing to go to law school itself, I disagree.

Necessary legal concepts are taught such as what constitutes "consideration." or the bargained for exchange in contracts. Courses in evidence are necessary to understand admissibility and what is hearsay and what is not and what are the exceptions to the rule.

Not sure the so-called Socratic method of constant hypotheticals is such a great approach.

I am retired. I had enough of. It make you a cynic and often hard to trust others since you are trained to ferret out inconsistencies in what other people say. Their glass is half empty or entirely empty, and your glass better be full or almost full. Then, the unpredictability of judges and Commissioners. Never know if they will follow the law either. They have their whims too.

 

[August_West]

Brilliant!

Post/Handle

I have two "inactive" medical licenses - PA and NJ - and haven't paid a dime since they went inactive.

Frickin' attorneys.

Handle/Post

Just an FYI that during the pandemic the NJ Bar relaxed the in person rule for CLEs. I made sure I got all mine done and the carry over for next time via the computer.

post/Handle!!!




goldmine thread.

 

[HuskyHawk]

imo the legal profession should be an apprentice model. And even the states that offer that seem to require nonsense like not getting paid.

but it’ll never happen because these too much fat to trim and higher Ed’s take in massive profits from law schools. Far more than undergrad cause they don’t need all the other bells and whistles

Europe model is like this according to my colleagues in Germany. They essentially major in law as undergrads, then go through a process like CPAs do to become full Lawyers. There may be exams, I'm not sure. But there's no extra "law school".

 

[HuskyHawk]

It's an absurd memory exercise. The only component that even remotely forecasts one's ability to practice law is the part where they give you the file and ask you to analyze it (and they might have done away with that part, I have no idea). It seems like a rite of passage at this point and that's about it.

Indeed. Believe me when I say that sitting in Oakland for 3 days in 1997, while only studying from old 1994 BarBri stuff from Kansas for a week or two didn't leave me feeling overconfident that I would be able to recall the details of the rule against perpetuities as applied in California. Fortunately, having written a number of pleadings in the prior 3 years I was confident on the written portion.

I will say, I was right, there are a lot of lawyers on this board.

 

[UCPharma11]

Any Boneyard Pharmacists here???

 

[Improviser]

Any Boneyard Pharmacists here???

You don't trust the one at your pharmacy?

 

[QuickDraw]

Funny, even lawyers complain about lawyers.

 

[NJHusky]

Yup! My two year cycle started in January. I spent the first month working from home with CLE's running the background. Done through 2021!

I practice in a very niche area and in a county where there are never any decent local live options. I go to an industry conference every couple years that gets me most of my live credits, but I'm always scrambling at the end for a few and have to go to some brutally boring session.

I took an in person 8 credit tax planning session the first year of required cle, only to have NJ decide it wasn’t fair and the gave us another year.