OT: Basketball's Fake Fundamentals

[husky429]

I'm bored today and sick of the downers on this board, so I figured I'd try to get the 'Yard riled up. I believe that coaches (even very successful coaches) teach some complete and utter garbage to players. This comes from a post @Jaydumo20 put up a few weeks ago in the pro spots board that I responded to. These are some of the things I think are malarkey, and a lot of them come from this author.



- Running the mile is a useless measure of basketball conditioning.

- The defensive step-slide and NEVER CROSS YOUR FEET mantra is silly.

- Closeouts with two hands up are stupid. That's god-awful basketball in most circumstances.

- Claiming players should never jump on a closeout is silly. Closeouts are overtaught.

- Boxing out anywhere but in the post is close to a waste of time. Box out drills in general are overused. Rebounding is 90% heart.

- Triple-threat position is way overtaught. Shot fake is a better option.

- The three-man weave. I hate it more than I can possibly express.

- A shooting dip is a good thing.

- Two-handed chest passes/bounce passes should not be practiced nearly as much as they are (this is mostly for youth coaches).

- Telling kids to "use your legs!" when they shoot (especially short). Shots come from the arms.

- You shouldn't put your middle finger on the center of the ball when you're practicing shooting form. Index finger goes in the middle of the ball.

- One-handed shooting practice from 3-5 feet. You should use your off-hand and start from around 10-12 feet.

- Shooting 100s of FTs in practice is almost always bad basketball. Shooting 2-10 when you're tired throughout practice instead.

'Yarders, please feel free to come at me like a hot wind. I know these aren't takes that most people agree with outside of the modern coaching world. There are a lot of really great D1 coaches that would disagree with these. The new-school guys like Oats, Beard (until recently), Shaka, etc. are generally moving in this direction though.

Feel free to ask me questions. I can give you a "why" for every one of these decisions, even if it's not something you agree with.

 

[Icehawk]

- Boxing out anywhere but in the post is close to a waste of time. Box out drills in general are overused. Rebounding is 90% heart.

Huh? Pretty sure heart ISN'T 90% of this.

 

[notthestuff]

I'm bored today and sick of the downers on this board, so I figured I'd try to get the 'Yard riled up. I believe that coaches (even very successful coaches) teach some complete and utter garbage to players. This comes from a post @Jaydumo20 put up a few weeks ago in the pro spots board that I responded to. These are some of the things I think are malarkey, and a lot of them come from this author.



- Running the mile is a useless measure of basketball conditioning.

- The defensive step-slide and NEVER CROSS YOUR FEET mantra is silly.

- Closeouts with two hands up are stupid. That's god-awful basketball in most circumstances.

- Claiming players should never jump on a closeout is silly. Closeouts are overtaught.

- Boxing out anywhere but in the post is close to a waste of time. Box out drills in general are overused. Rebounding is 90% heart.

- Triple-threat position is way overtaught. Shot fake is a better option.

- The three-man weave. I hate it more than I can possibly express.

- A shooting dip is a good thing.

- Two-handed chest passes/bounce passes should not be practiced nearly as much as they are (this is mostly for youth coaches).

- Telling kids to "use your legs!" when they shoot (especially short). Shots come from the arms.

- You shouldn't put your middle finger on the center of the ball when you're practicing shooting form. Index finger goes in the middle of the ball.

- One-handed shooting practice from 3-5 feet. You should use your off-hand and start from around 10-12 feet.

- Shooting 100s of FTs in practice is almost always bad basketball. Shooting 2-10 when you're tired throughout practice instead.

'Yarders, please feel free to come at me like a hot wind. I know these aren't takes that most people agree with outside of the modern coaching world. There are a lot of really great D1 coaches that would disagree with these. The new-school guys like Oats, Beard (until recently), Shaka, etc. are generally moving in this direction though.

Feel free to ask me questions. I can give you a "why" for every one of these decisions, even if it's not something you agree with.

I'm taking the bait for a rare 2 post week. I agree with most of this with a couple of contingencies.

My teams have given up too many rebounds and I've gotten too many offensive rebounds myself as a guard flying in unchecked. Every offensive player's momentum and read on a rebound needs to be at least checked to confirm they are bailing out on getting an offensive rebound. Box out drills are dumb and a waste of valuable practice time. It takes 5 minutes to teach 2nd graders how to box out. It's getting all levels applying it in live situations that is hard. It needs to be a focus of every live drill to build a habit. Single focus drills don't help that.

The way 99% of coaches do 3 man weave it is the most useless garbage ever done in a practice. If it's done as a fast break drill getting a layup in 3 passes or less with the ball never going backwards and dribbling allowed to keep forward progress, it can be valuable in helping to learn to run the floor making quick decisions that can apply depending on what your break and secondary look like.

If a kid is shooting stiff legged start to finish you do need to get them to engage their legs. Power comes from the timing of transfer from the legs, not necessarily from how much they engage but there needs to be some transfer at release. I don't know any good shooters who don't engage their legs at all.

Form shooting from 3-5 feet can add value depending on what you are trying to fix. Shooting that close can help build a high finish which is my preference because it leads to a more consistent release point. Once that's attained, I'm half way between starting around 8 feet then moving back in 2/3 foot increments at a set number of makes. One handed can also help at the youth level break a two handed habit. High School and beyond should be with a guide hand.

 

[Kenny11]

I was taught that all passes into the post should be bounce passes....the lie detector test determined that was a LIE

 

[Hey Adrien!]

This coach has a Ph.D, so he's gotta know what he's talking about.

 

[jake14mw]

I'm bored today and sick of the downers on this board, so I figured I'd try to get the 'Yard riled up. I believe that coaches (even very successful coaches) teach some complete and utter garbage to players. This comes from a post @Jaydumo20 put up a few weeks ago in the pro spots board that I responded to. These are some of the things I think are malarkey, and a lot of them come from this author.




- Claiming players should never jump on a closeout is silly. Closeouts are overtaught. Not sure what you mean by closeouts are overtaught. I believe you should close out under control most of the time. It also depends on WHO you are closing out on.

- Boxing out anywhere but in the post is close to a waste of time. Box out drills in general are overused. Rebounding is 90% heart. I completely disagree on this one. If you are 6'2" and are 6 ft from the hoop and your guy is 6'4" and is 9 ft from the hoop, if the rebound comes 7 ft out he's going to get it. If you aren't boxing out, what are you doing?

- Triple-threat position is way overtaught. Shot fake is a better option. To me a shot fake comes from first being in triple threat position. If you WANT to shoot, then being in a position to drive should give you more room to shoot.

- Telling kids to "use your legs!" when they shoot (especially short). Shots come from the arms. Legs are part of the shot too, especially for younger players.

- One-handed shooting practice from 3-5 feet. You should use your off-hand and start from around 10-12 feet. This really depends on the player and what their current shot looks like. If they already have good form then I would agree. If their form is bad, then they get get more shots off with good form from 3-5 feet in a given time frame.



'Yarders, please feel free to come at me like a hot wind. I know these aren't takes that most people agree with outside of the modern coaching world. There are a lot of really great D1 coaches that would disagree with these. The new-school guys like Oats, Beard (until recently), Shaka, etc. are generally moving in this direction though.

Feel free to ask me questions. I can give you a "why" for every one of these decisions, even if it's not something you agree with.

Interesting post. I can agree with most of your points, but above are the ones I don't agree with with my opinion in bold.

 

[Hey Adrien!]

- Triple-threat position is way overtaught. Shot fake is a better option.

- Telling kids to "use your legs!" when they shoot (especially short). Shots come from the arms.

How can you shot fake without some sort of triple threat?

Also, shooting form ALWAYS starts from below the waist.

 

[husky429]

This coach has a Ph.D, so he's gotta know what he's talking about.

I think he was a coach in Europe and D1 over the years, but fair enough lol.

 

[husky429]

How can you shot fake without some sort of triple threat?

Also, shooting form ALWAYS starts from below the waist.

I think this is where the "triple-threat is overtaught" comes in--I didn't explain myself very well here. I spent half my youth practicing pivoting and keeping the ball in triple-threat with a defender draped on me. I think that's a silly drill. If a player is guarding you that tight--immediately drive the ball or swing it if you don't have the handles.

Personally, I think you should be making decisions fast enough that a triple-threat isn't necessary. Pass, drive, or shot (or fake) immediately after the catch.

It isn't so much that triple-threat doesn't exist... it's just that I think explicitly teaching it gets kids out of an attacking mindset, which I don't love.

 

[MDHuskFan]

I miss the good ole days of who is dipping & what is a dip in a shot.

 

[husky429]

I was taught that all passes into the post should be bounce passes....the lie detector test determined that was a LIE

One of my favorite coaches told me to throw it directly at my big man's nose. Not sure if I quite agree with it, but I like the mindset of keeping the ball high on the pass.

 

[husky429]

- Boxing out anywhere but in the post is close to a waste of time. Box out drills in general are overused. Rebounding is 90% heart.

Huh? Pretty sure heart ISN'T 90% of this.

Not quite sure what you mean.

Generally speaking, I'm not a guy who is going to blame players for not trying hard--I think our guys are always trying hard and it annoys me to no end when people accuse our players of being lazy. I do think we over-teach defensive rebounding technique as a whole in basketball. And I do think that rebounding is instinct and heart more than anything.

I don't mind box out drills close to the hoop (especially for FTs), but there are SO many coaches who have kids doing a long, traditional box out 20 feet from the hoop. Then you watch the game and exactly 0 of the players are doing it.

My rebounding mantra is "hit someone and get 'in ball"... Rodman style. I think getting much more complicated than than for the guards is wasting our time.

Offensive rebounding, I think you need to be a bit more technical about sometimes. I taught my players to "swim" or "spin" on offensive boards when they encounter resistance getting to the ball.

 

[Umami Zen]

Always found it interesting watching Nova players during shoot arounds/warmups.. Esp. the guards and wings (three- point shooters).. They incorporate shot fakes/up fakes as part of their routine(s) so that when needed in a game.. It's just second nature.. Another interesting part of their in-game strategy is the use of their eyes on fakes.. Trying to get the D to bite .. Before going into their shooting motion. For them.. A learned skill vs a natural skill.

 

[husky429]

Always found it interesting watching Nova players during shoot arounds/warmups.. Esp. the guards and wings (three- point shooters).. They incorporate shot fakes/up fakes as part of their routine(s) so that when needed in a game.. It's just second nature.. Another interesting part of their in-game strategy is the use of their eyes on fakes.. Trying to get the D to bite .. Before going into their shooting motion. For them.. A learned skill vs a natural skill.

Jay Wright was an incredible teacher of the game of basketball. If I were a guard with 1000x more talent than I had as a high schooler, I'd have probably played for him over just about any coach in America.

 

[UCMB88]

- Telling kids to "use your legs!" when they shoot (especially short). Shots come from the arms.

Ummm, do you not remember the Calhoun TV spot, I think it was a Big Y commercial, where he said (in his best Boston accent): "A good shot starts in your toes and ends up in your fingertips."

 

[Umami Zen]

Something that caught my eye in the bullets you provided re: 100 FTs vs shooting 2-10 in practice when you're tired.. As a non-coach and casual fan.. It would seem that a solid/consistent pre-shot routine that reinforces muscle memory and rhythm ..visualization..proper breathing.. and let it go are a good thing.. Which camp are you in??

Would like to pose a question re: one of our guys.. Yarders seem to be banging on Donovan re: his FT shooting. To my eye..For a Big.. He's got a nice stroke/nice rhythm ..Maybe rushing just a little.But his results aren't great.. How would you improve on that in-season? Would be nice to see him eventually approach Adama type percentages as he matures. This is not a dump on Donovan deal.. Strictly curious on how you would approach this challenge from a coaching/skill improvement perspective.

 

[jake14mw]

My rebounding mantra is "hit someone and get 'in ball"... Rodman style. I think getting much more complicated than than for the guards is wasting our time.

What does "hit someone and get in ball" mean?

 

[jake14mw]

...

Would like to pose a question re: one of our guys.. Yarders seem to be banging on Donovan re: his FT shooting. To my eye..For a Big.. He's got a nice stroke/nice rhythm ..But his results aren't great.. How would you improve on that in-season? Would be nice to see him eventually approach Adama type percentages as he matures.

Good question. I tried to look up his FT% in High School, but I couldn't find it. I agree that his form looks really good. It seems to me that he should be shooting at a higher %. The reason I wanted to know his HS% is that if it was good in HS, then I would say it's just nerves or game hype that is the issue. Watching him play, he looks to have a lot of confidence, so I would be surprised if it was nerves.

 

[husky429]

- Telling kids to "use your legs!" when they shoot (especially short). Shots come from the arms.

Ummm, do you not remember the Calhoun TV spot, I think it was a Big Y commercial, where he said (in his best Boston accent): "A good shot starts in your toes and ends up in your fingertips."

I do remember that, now that you mention it lol. And he's not wrong--a good shot involves your entire body.

What is dead wrong is when coaches say "use your legs!".... meaning "jump harder to shoot farther." This is dead, dead wrong. Look at every great shooter on the planet--even the old school shooters like Ray. The lower-body stays the same regardless of where you shoot from. If you need to shoot farther, it comes from the arms.

 

[husky429]

Something that caught my eye in the bullets you provided re: 100 FTs vs shooting 2-10 in practice when you're tired.. As a non-coach and casual fan.. It would seem that a solid/consistent pre-shot routine that reinforces muscle memory and rhythm ..visualization..proper breathing.. and let it go are a good thing.. Which camp are you in??

I'm not sure what the two camps you're referring to are. What most coaches are doing now (unlike my moronic AAU and high school coaches) is to have players shoot 2-10 FTs in between drills during a practice instead of shooting 100 FTs in bulk.

On my teams, I would have kids shoot 2-10 maybe 8 times between drills. They recorded their makes on my clipboard before we get water. For every % we were below 75%, the whole team ran a line drill. So if my team shot 67% collectively from the line on a bad shooting day, then we were all running 8 line drills--and that included me.

When kids are shooting those 2-10 FTs, that includes a pre-shot routine every time. I don't really care what the routine is, as long as the ball starts in the pocket of your hip (not by your eye like some coaches teach). Ball travels as close to the body as possible to your release point, and you follow through. As long as it's a simple, repeatable motion, I'm happy.

 

[Umami Zen]

I'm not sure what the two camps you're referring to are. What most coaches are doing now (unlike my moronic AAU and high school coaches) is to have players shoot 2-10 FTs in between drills during a practice instead of shooting 100 FTs in bulk.

On my teams, I would have kids shoot 2-10 maybe 8 times between drills. They recorded their makes on my clipboard before we get water. For every % we were below 75%, the whole team ran a line drill. So if my team shot 67% collectively from the line on a bad shooting day, then we were all running 8 line drills--and that included me.

When kids are shooting those 2-10 FTs, that includes a pre-shot routine every time. I don't really care what the routine is, as long as the ball starts in the pocket of your hip (not by your eye like some coaches teach). Ball travels as close to the body as possible to your release point, and you follow through. As long as it's a simple, repeatable motion, I'm happy.

Two camps= 100FTs vs 2-10 FTs during practice/btn drills

 

[uconndogs]

Boxing out anywhere but in the post is close to a waste of time. Box out drills in general are overused. Rebounding is 90% heart.

Ummmm........really? Especially on the defensive end?

 

[husky429]

Would like to pose a question re: one of our guys.. Yarders seem to be banging on Donovan re: his FT shooting. To my eye..For a Big.. He's got a nice stroke/nice rhythm ..Maybe rushing just a little.But his results aren't great.. How would you improve on that in-season? Would be nice to see him eventually approach Adama type percentages as he matures. This is not a dump on Donovan deal.. Strictly curious on how you would approach this challenge from a coaching/skill improvement perspective.

Free throws are really hard when you're 1000 feet tall.

Mid-season? You aren't going to change his form or mess with his routine. I'm just having the kid take a bunch of shots throughout practice, and try to take the pressure off him by not being too critical.

Off-season is when you can work on FT form. I'm wonder if he needs some small tweaks to his set point and how he raises the ball from his hips since his shot is so flat. I'm not sure though--that's why he has coaches making millions collectively, lol.

 

[husky429]

Ummmm........really? Especially on the defensive end?

Yup. I firmly believe a box out anywhere past 15 feet or some is not particularly useful. Watch our team--see how many players box out outside of the paint consistently. They aren't.

 

[LIuconn]

2 hand closeouts on jump shooters was so dumb, but it was taught as a core defensive fundamental.