Warde Manual ... this ain't UBuffalo

[FfldCntyFan]

FCF, we clearly disagree. But now answer my question. How long are you willing to wait for Ollie to produce? I'll even say as long as he finishes a game over .500 this year, he'll be extended. But keeping in mind that Williams won 30 games his second year, how many years are you willing to give Ollie before: A. He gets to the NCAA tournament; and B: His team makes a deep run?

If we can't finish .500 this season there is a problem. If that problem is even remotely due to coaching, it will be time to move on.

I fully expect us to be a tournament team (and ranked for the bulk of the season) in 2013-2014. If KO can't deliver what I see as reasonable expectations (quality recruiting classes, ranked teams most of the times, capable of a sweet 16 or elite 8 moreoften than not, a team capable of making a run at a title (not necessarily winning it) every (give or take) four years, we should look to move on.

Tell me, what does KO need to accomplish this season and then the following season for you to believe we made a good move (or will the jury be out in your eyes until he does win a title)?

 

[freescooter]

this season is tough, but I'd say 17 wins, and a team that competes even when it loses would be the minimum. And next year we need to be in the tournament. And back with a reasonable run in 2015. the problem as I see it is if we wait too long there is a very real risk that we'll be down for quite a long time. And I don't think that this year being a "thowaway" is necessarily a good thing. There are too many built in excuses for a poor season, and I think as long as we are above .500 there will be huge pressure form the fan base to stay the course. And if we go to the NIT next year, we'll hear that well, you can't count 2012-13 since we were in turmoil...and so on and it will be very easy to get 5 or 6 years into this and discover we're no longer competing with Duke for national supremacy, but NC State and Temple for the best of the mediocre programs.

 

[Husky68]

this season is tough, but I'd say 17 wins, and a team that competes even when it loses would be the minimum. And next year we need to be in the tournament. And back with a reasonable run in 2015. the problem as I see it is if we wait too long there is a very real risk that we'll be down for quite a long time. And I don't think that this year being a "thowaway" is necessarily a good thing. There are too many built in excuses for a poor season, and I think as long as we are above .500 there will be huge pressure form the fan base to stay the course. And if we go to the NIT next year, we'll hear that well, you can't count 2012-13 since we were in turmoil...and so on and it will be very easy to get 5 or 6 years into this and discover we're no longer competing with Duke for national supremacy, but NC State and Temple for the best of the mediocre programs.

75% of college basketball is recruiting. How well do you think Ollie will recruit? Get recruits and you are a top 25 team. How bad a coach can Ollie be if he can recruit; doesn't matter how good a coach he is if he can't recruit.
Is he capable of winning 3 national championships in his career, I don't know. Tell me of the "good" coaches now in the game, what coach that hasn't won one National Championship is going to win 3; never mind that, who is the next 1st time winner? Probably next season you have Kentucky, Duke, NC, Syracuse, Kansas, Florida, Mich State are up there, but those guys have won already.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

this season is tough, but I'd say 17 wins, and a team that competes even when it loses would be the minimum. And next year we need to be in the tournament. And back with a reasonable run in 2015. the problem as I see it is if we wait too long there is a very real risk that we'll be down for quite a long time. And I don't think that this year being a "thowaway" is necessarily a good thing. There are too many built in excuses for a poor season, and I think as long as we are above .500 there will be huge pressure form the fan base to stay the course. And if we go to the NIT next year, we'll hear that well, you can't count 2012-13 since we were in turmoil...and so on and it will be very easy to get 5 or 6 years into this and discover we're no longer competing with Duke for national supremacy, but NC State and Temple for the best of the mediocre programs.

It sounds as if we fundamentally agree on what the issues will be if we do have an immediate and (even short term) lasting drop off.

Where we differ is it appears that you seem to believe that if we went outside for JC's replacement it would be a given that we would not miss a beat while with KO, the risk is great that he will bring us results that are even remotely close to what we want. I believe that there would be a risk regardless of who we bring in and I see the risk as no greater with KO than it would have been with nearly any other possibility (Izzo, K, Calipari are the few sure things I can think of).

 

[ConnHuskBask]

It sounds as if we fundamentally agree on what the issues will be if we do have an immediate and (even short term) lasting drop off.

Where we differ is it appears that you seem to believe that if we went outside for JC's replacement it would be a given that we would not miss a beat while with KO, the risk is great that he will bring us results that are even remotely close to what we want. I believe that there would be a risk regardless of who we bring in and I see the risk as no greater with KO than it would have been with nearly any other possibility (Izzo, K, Calipari are the few sure things I can think of).

Not to jump in the middle of your guy's debate here, but to say Ollie is no greater risk than the coaches we would be presumably talking to is quite the stretch. I totally get the Ollie enthusiasm and I'm fine with the hire and will totally support him, but how can you say the risk with Ollie and say Shaka Smart are the same?

Shaka Smart is a proven commodity that has coached a CAA team to the Final 4. Ollie has been an assistant, and not even the top assistant here at UConn for two years.

Neither are sure things, but think about it from a business perspective.

You have to hire a new guy in your finance department are you going with the new college graduate that could be a great hire or are you going with the guy who has been in the workforce for years and has proven himself?

Ultimately, we're all in Ollie's camp, but let's be real about the situation. He has absolutely no experience whatsoever in coaching and running a D1 program. He is a huge risk.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I seem to remember a couple of proven commodities that Kentucky hired to replace coaches that won national titles (and also succeeded national title winning coaches) that did not work out very well (Sutton, Gillespie).

Sure things and proven commodities aren't always what they appear to be.

 

[freescooter]

I think ConnHuskBask has hit it right on the head. It largely depends on what you think Ollie will deliver. Of course there are no guarentees whether you hire Kevin Ollie or Shaka Smart or pretty much anyone except maybe Mike K, Roy Williams. Self or Calipari, and the 1st 3 wouldn't come an the last one might be less successful in an athletic department that would require him to abide by at least minimal standards. But my view is that hiring Ollie is a huge risk, since you are asking an inexperienced guy to coach in one of the toughest conferences in the country. And playing in the NBA is vastly different from coaching a college basketball team. And in my view, the potential downside if Ollie can't cut it is disaterous. And I'd go even further and say that the Ollie risk is higher than almost any other coach you could hire, because the fan base won't let you replace him unless he drives the program completely into a ditch. The PR effort in his behalf has been such that a string of mediocre efforts will not be sufficient to allow for his replacement until we have moved well out of the range of elite programs. 10 years ago, when the Big East was becoming the power conference in the country it might have been possible to go 5 or 6 years with a mediocre coach and keep thinking he's just a year away. In the current environment that just isn't the case. And mark my words, if Ollie has a string of 18-20 win seasons, that is exactly what we'll hear from the apologists. If UConn basketball falls to a lower level, it might very well be a very long stay. In my view, what UConn needed to do, still needs to do really, was try and minimize that risk by hiring a proven coach or at the very least a coach who has demonstrated by his coaching record that he can succeed in keeping UConn at a high level. Ollie may very well be a great guy and we know was a tough player, may be nice to his mother and drive his maiden aunt to church every Sunday. But as a basketball coach he is a cipher, and therefore a huge risk to the crown jewel of the UConn athletic department. You saying you think he'll be a great coach is based on a hope and a prayer, not a single fact. I say John ThompsonIII, Rick Pitino, and the rest of the sharks in the Big East water are going to have no mercy on a guy who has never even come close to swimming in their waters.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Shouldn't we wait until he fails before proclaiming him a failure?

 

[freescooter]

Never said he was a failure. Said he was a high risk. And maybe he should coach at least 1 game before we tell proclaim him a great head coach.

And as an aside to 68, whiel recruiting is important, it is far more about knowing who to recruit than just landing guys. Then it is about knowing what to do with them once you get them,. Calhoun was masterful at the knowing part and the what to do with them part. Much as he takes heat on this board for his "ethical lapses" Calipari has also been very good at that. With what hasessentially been a series of all-star teams, he has done a very goo jobe at getting guys to play within a system. With all those guys, Kentucky and before that Memphis, could easily deteriorated into a bunch of individuals rather than a team.

 

[uconnfan68]

Never said he was a failure. Said he was a high risk. And maybe he should coach at least 1 game before we tell proclaim him a great head coach.

And as an aside to 68, whiel recruiting is important, it is far more about knowing who to recruit than just landing guys. Then it is about knowing what to do with them once you get them,. Calhoun was masterful at the knowing part and the what to do with them part. Much as he takes heat on this board for his "ethical lapses" Calipari has also been very good at that. With what hasessentially been a series of all-star teams, he has done a very goo jobe at getting guys to play within a system. With all those guys, Kentucky and before that Memphis, could easily deteriorated into a bunch of individuals rather than a team.

I wouldn't have a problem with K, Williams, Self, or even Calipari coming to UConn... but none of them would ever do it. Yes, it's true KO is untested as ahead coach at this level, but the potential is there, and guess what... all of the assistants and JC are still there too. Now JC can't coach in games, but the others can offer their perspectives. It will be different, but not worse. The Big East is changing within the year, and we're already down a rung on the ladder with or without JC. Football drives the bus, and we're still in the parking lot. The lack of high level football will destroy what JC built, not KO.

 

[upstater]

FCF, we clearly disagree. But now answer my question. How long are you willing to wait for Ollie to produce? I'll even say as long as he finishes a game over .500 this year, he'll be extended. But keeping in mind that Williams won 30 games his second year, how many years are you willing to give Ollie before: A. He gets to the NCAA tournament; and B: His team makes a deep run?

The real question is what do you expect given that he has to recruit with one hand tied behind his back.

 

[freescooter]

He hasn't coached a game and the excuses are already starting...and you guys don't think if he goes 18-14 3 years from now upstater won't be posting " We can't fire hime. He's just a year away?"

 

[HuskyHawk]

We're not as cunning as Big12 schools. They need to be able to compete with the UTs and OUs of the world. How else do you sell living in Kansas for a few years?

Partly by having people visit. Lawrence KS is, among other things, a much nicer place to live than Storrs. I've lived in both. Your parochial ignorance, common to New Englanders, is not surprising. I had the role of interviewing potential law professors my third year at KU law. Recall one from DC (worked for DOJ) who fell in love with Lawrence immediately and just raved about the place. Couldn't wait to move his family from the DC area.

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to live in Norman, OK.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The real question is what do you expect given that he has to recruit with one hand tied behind his back.

I don't think the one year contract is much of a handicap. Calhoun had to recruit for a program that was in the basement of the Big East and played in the Field House. Somehow he managed. Would KO be better off with a longer contract...maybe a tiny bit. Is he still better positioned to recruit than 95% of the other coaches in D1? Yes, absolutely.

I'm not really worried about his recruiting, that's the one thing he's actually done. I want to see if he can run a program, if he can coach in a game, if he can motivate the kids, recover from a tough stretch, get them to rise for big games. I want to see if he can get them to improve. I want to see what his X's and O's look like. I want to see what defense he will run and what kind of offense. Those are the things that will determine whether he's still here a year from now or not. Not recruiting. Calhoun's legacy is not based on great recruiting. It's based on coaching up his kids. Getting the most out of them, and making them better players than anyone expected.

By the way, I have high hopes that Kevin can do this. Now we just need to see it.

 

[Pudge]

Interim sucks.

That's the basic answer. I totally dismiss the post above this. You cannot get much traction at all with a One Year. I get why Warde Manual did this. But ... if Kevin Ollie comes out with an aggressive Team that plays hard & Kevin Ollie continues to get rave notice about who likes him amongst upcoming prospects & Kevin Ollie handles the media/Public responsibilities of the UConn job ... you need to make an assessment by February what you are doing.

As much as you think you'll get a solid Calhoun replacement, my point is that you're not. You are going to take a Leap of Faith with a second tier guy. Is that a higher probability of success, at this time, than Kevin Ollie ... ABSOLUTELY. But, it's never going to be near 100% to get near our past 20 years. In fact, the likely scenario is Villanova or something. Ollie enthuses me (as a family member) ... until he doesn't.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Interim sucks.

That's the basic answer. I totally dismiss the post above this. You cannot get much traction at all with a One Year. I get why Warde Manual did this. But ... if Kevin Ollie comes out with an aggressive Team that plays hard & Kevin Ollie continues to get rave notice about who likes him amongst upcoming prospects & Kevin Ollie handles the media/Public responsibilities of the UConn job ... you need to make an assessment by February what you are doing.

As much as you think you'll get a solid Calhoun replacement, my point is that you're not. You are going to take a Leap of Faith with a second tier guy. Is that a higher probability of success, at this time, than Kevin Ollie ... ABSOLUTELY. But, it's never going to be near 100% to get near our past 20 years. In fact, the likely scenario is Villanova or something. Ollie enthuses me (as a family member) ... until he doesn't.

JC caused the situation. He could have and should have retired in the Spring. At this point in the season, it is irresponsible to do anything but appoint an interim coach.

As for Kevin Ollie, I think it's pretty simple. I don't think the fact that potential recruits do or don't like him is particularly relevant. Instead, I think the AD and administration will be looking at how he runs practices, how the kids do in class (and whether they go), what kind of game coach he is, how he handles ups and downs of the season and how he handles the media. It's his job to keep or lose. If he seems overmatched, and is getting out-coached left and right, and if he can't handle the stress of the media and of trying to keep the players in line, in class etc, then he'll be pronounced "not ready". Either Kevin Ollie is up for this job or he's not. It will be obvious to all of us by February, which is the case.

You all make way too much out of the one year thing. I don't think it has any effect on recruiting whatsoever. Every coach can be fired, and in Calhoun's case, he's been a year to year coach who could retire any time for at least the last couple of years. What's the difference? They are signing to come to UConn. If the coach in 13-14 isn't KO, he still won't be a bum.

 

[upstater]

He hasn't coached a game and the excuses are already starting...and you guys don't think if he goes 18-14 3 years from now upstater won't be posting " We can't fire hime. He's just a year away?"

Have you even been paying attention? I've been totally critical of the admin. for not giving him a longer contract. No one does that.

 

[upstater]

JC caused the situation. He could have and should have retired in the Spring. At this point in the season, it is irresponsible to do anything but appoint an interim coach.

As for Kevin Ollie, I think it's pretty simple. I don't think the fact that potential recruits do or don't like him is particularly relevant. Instead, I think the AD and administration will be looking at how he runs practices, how the kids do in class (and whether they go), what kind of game coach he is, how he handles ups and downs of the season and how he handles the media. It's his job to keep or lose. If he seems overmatched, and is getting out-coached left and right, and if he can't handle the stress of the media and of trying to keep the players in line, in class etc, then he'll be pronounced "not ready". Either Kevin Ollie is up for this job or he's not. It will be obvious to all of us by February, which is the case.

You all make way too much out of the one year thing. I don't think it has any effect on recruiting whatsoever. Every coach can be fired, and in Calhoun's case, he's been a year to year coach who could retire any time for at least the last couple of years. What's the difference? They are signing to come to UConn. If the coach in 13-14 isn't KO, he still won't be a bum.

Bunk. Calhoun went from the greatest coach ever in 2011 to coaching a fiasco last year.
You also seem to forget he busted his hip.

In any endeavour, you want to give yourself every chance to succeed. Half-arsing it is going to yield half-arsed results.

 

[huskymedic]

As for Kevin Ollie, I think it's pretty simple. I don't think the fact that potential recruits do or don't like him is particularly relevant. Instead, I think the AD and administration will be looking at how he runs practices, how the kids do in class (and whether they go), what kind of game coach he is, how he handles ups and downs of the season and how he handles the media. It's his job to keep or lose. If he seems overmatched, and is getting out-coached left and right, and if he can't handle the stress of the media and of trying to keep the players in line, in class etc, then he'll be pronounced "not ready". Either Kevin Ollie is up for this job or he's not. It will be obvious to all of us by February, which is the case.

THIS^^^^ Less about wins and losses and more about a professional program representing the university.

 

[freescooter]

Have you even been paying attention? I've been totally critical of the admin. for not giving him a longer contract. No one does that.

Why give him a long term contract for recruiting purposes when they don't even know if he can coach? though I'm not even sure he will be the coach in anything but name this year to hear Calhoun tell it at the Middlesex Chamber Breakfast this week...

 

[upstater]

Why give him a long term contract for recruiting purposes when they don't even know if he can coach? though I'm not even sure he will be the coach in anything but name this year to hear Calhoun tell it at the Middlesex Chamber Breakfast this week...

Fire him at any time. In the meantime, bring the best players to UConn that you possibly can!

 

[Pudge]

Interim does nothing for US. I hope it means that his few months gives Warde Manual a basis to give him a real contract so that he can set a team in the Spring signing period. I agree with Fishy when he said this is 50/50. Ollie has a shot ... but a tough one.

SEE ARKANSAS football for evidence of what not to do.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Bunk. Calhoun went from the greatest coach ever in 2011 to coaching a fiasco last year.
You also seem to forget he busted his hip.

In any endeavour, you want to give yourself every chance to succeed. Half-arsing it is going to yield half-arsed results.

He's been wavering on retirement every year. I don't forget he busted his hip. I also don't forget that his effort to pick a successor was rebuffed.

I agree you give yourself a chance to succeed. I don't think the 1 year contract hurts Ollie's chance to succeed in the slightest. People are hired provisionally all the time. It is extremely common. It is also a very effective way to handle the hiring of unproven people like Kevin Ollie. There is nothing more "half-arsed" than giving a long term contract to a coach who has never coached, especially when the public is paying the bills.

In any event, how does it affect KO's status? The 2013-14 recruits aren't playing this year. JC's recruits are. Kevin will have an extension or we'll all know he's not ready before the season ends. The recruits he does or doesn't land won't affect that. That's not what the administration is looking at. WM said so very clearly.

 

[Nostical]

HuskyHawk: There is nothing more "half-arsed" than giving a long term contract to a coach who has never coached, especially when the public is paying the bills.

Well said and absolutely correct. And truth be told, despite all of the back and forth on the issue of a one year deal, there's no-one on this board who, if they were AD under the same time constraints of the late Calhoun retirement announcement, would have signed KO long term. Not with Susan Herbst in charge.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Interim does nothing for US. I hope it means that his few months gives Warde Manual a basis to give him a real contract so that he can set a team in the Spring signing period. I agree with Fishy when he said this is 50/50. Ollie has a shot ... but a tough one.

SEE ARKANSAS football for evidence of what not to do.

I'm still pretty much convinced that the one year contract is merely a means to once all is said and done give the appearance that WM (and SH) made the decision on JC's successor, not JC.

There could be many things transpiring over the next few years where WM has to be able to present himself as the guy who runs the athletic department, not a puppet who lets long time, successful coaches dictate all terms. Even if WM believed fully that KO was the best candidate, the way that things happened there was no way he could have convinced anyone that it was anything beyond him following JC's orders. This was a necessary step.