UNC buckles... Hires outside investigator to probe academic fraud scandal

[Icebear]

You assessment of PSU does not match up with the facts but rather the media coverage which was skewed and terrible.

 

[Zorro]

In what way, Br'er Bear?

 

[Icebear]

Assertions about who knew what and when were regularly made without evidence and based on the assumptions, such as, they would have to know. In the testimony to date things do not support many of those assertions and assumptions. The Freeh report was given far more credibility than it deserved by the NCAA who jumped to actions using it. I could go on further but have no interest in dragging it all out again.

 

[pap49cba]

I could go on further but have no interest in dragging it all out again.

I'll second that!

 

[Zorro]

The NC investigation will, it seems, be conducted in a much more orderly and thorough manner. From what I have read about it, it will likely be not one of the worst academic scandals ever, but THE worst. I expect, though, that it is going to be some time before the public learns about a lot of this stuff, if ever. Fine line here between academic dishonesty and what could be considered an actual crime. It will be interesting.

 

[DobbsRover2]

You assessment of PSU does not match up with the facts but rather the media coverage which was skewed and terrible.

Maybe, I'm not sure what the difference between "media coverage" releases and the stated factual evidence of what various members of the PSU admin buried. There was a lot that was terrible about the PSU case, but I would say that the media coverage would not be anywhere near the top of my list. The decisions of a group of four men would be at the top.

 

[David 76]

Ah, poor Penn State and their coaches and administrators, We all rushed to judgement about when they knew about the rapist pedophile. They should be in jail.
That is a bit more egregious than fake courses for jocks.

 

[Icebear]

Maybe, I'm not sure what the difference between "media coverage" releases and the stated factual evidence of what various members of the PSU admin buried. There was a lot that was terrible about the PSU case, but I would say that the media coverage would not be anywhere near the top of my list. The decisions of a group of four men would be at the top.

The is no information to date that JoePA did anything other than exactly what he should under PA law nor that he knew anything more about any of it than what McQuerry had told him. There is no evidence he participated in any cover up or ever made any attempt to hide any information. I will not be surprised to find out the Schultz and Curley handled everything between themselves and in house. You mentioned the students defending Joe not surprising because the media never followed up or gave coverage to the efforts students made on behalf of victims and against abuse. It wasn't sensational I guess. They held Blue Out events, raised funds, held vigils, and organized One Heart PSU.

 

[Icebear]

Ah, poor Penn State and their coaches and administrators, We all rushed to judgement about when they knew about the rapist pedophile. They should be in jail.
That is a bit more egregious than fake courses for jocks.

Tell me David what you actually know about this. Anything first hand. I doubt it. You likely only know the image painted by ESPN which was crap. Tell me how many people knew how wide spread that knowledge was.

No one wants sympathy for the coaches or players other than the simple respect they deserve as people uninvolved in any crimes or cover up. They want no more respect than you would ask for yourself. The entire student body did not live in State College when any of the hideous crimes took place.

I live in the greater State College community and the situation wasn't widely known as is often implied. I wait patiently for the trials of Schultz and Curley hoping against hope that truth does come out.

Believing that it was a wide conspiracy goes against social systems logic which indicates the more who know something the more likely it becomes exposed. That something this ugly is supposed to have been kept secret for 10-20 years argues against a broad conspiracy. The people of the State College area have deep compassion for the victims. They despise Sandusky and the evil he perpetrated, do not think for a minute they don't.

 

[triaddukefan]

Ok.... lets get this thread back to the original topic .... bashing UNC

 

[DobbsRover2]

The is no information to date that JoePA did anything other than exactly what he should under PA law nor that he knew anything more about any of it than what McQuerry had told him. There is no evidence he participated in any cover up or ever made any attempt to hide any information. I will not be surprised to find out the Schultz and Curley handled everything between themselves and in house. You mentioned the students defending Joe not surprising because the media never followed up or gave coverage to the efforts students made on behalf of victims and against abuse. It wasn't sensational I guess. They held Blue Out events, raised funds, held vigils, and organized One Heart PSU.

Well, again, everyone has different codes of conduct. The RC hierarchy did what was required of them by church law in their institution about the horrible abuses going on. And it grew into a massive system of accommodation. None of the prelates "needed" to speak up about the abuses, and all but a few ignored them.

Paterno also did just what was "needed" for himself and by law, and for that he has stained his reputation forever. Sure, blame it all on the media, but please don't dare ever give us any platitudes about saintly Joe just needing pass on the info of abuse revolving around his depended-on defensive coordinator. We have hopefully moved nowadays to less savage times where that type of thinking doesn't hold sway anymore, and yes there is a moral obligation to the victims, to the school, and to Paterno himself that he refused to acknowledge when the repeated acts were told to him. You also have no problem with Paterno's adamant blindness to the controversy and his lack of interest, and there is a very fine line between being genuinely "in the dark" and being a willing accessory to the cover-up.

Blaming the media doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Ok.... lets get this thread back to the original topic .... bashing UNC

Oh just get over it. Duke is the one to blame in this mess. If the Devils hadn't exerted such extreme pressure on the Heels to succeed in football and the other sports, they never would have felt compelled to put a toe or two over the line. I think there should be a huge no-holds-barred investigation into Duke's role in this mess, maybe starting with JP McCallie. That's where the smoking gun lies.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Well, again, everyone has different codes of conduct. The RC hierarchy did what was required of them by church law in their institution about the horrible abuses going on. And it grew into a massive system of accommodation. None of the prelates "needed" to speak up about the abuses, and all but a few ignored them.

Paterno also did just what was "needed" for himself and by law, and for that he has stained his reputation forever. Sure, blame it all on the media, but please don't dare ever give us any platitudes about saintly Joe just needing pass on the info of abuse revolving around his depended-on defensive coordinator. We have hopefully moved nowadays to less savage times where that type of thinking doesn't hold sway anymore, and yes there is a moral obligation to the victims, to the school, and to Paterno himself that he refused to acknowledge when the repeated acts were told to him. You also have no problem with Paterno's adamant blindness to the controversy and his lack of interest, and there is a very fine line between being genuinely "in the dark" and being a willing accessory to the cover-up.

Blaming the media doesn't cut it anymore.

Wow. Judgmental much?

 

[DobbsRover2]

Wow. Judgmental much?

If you say so. Some of us don't really worship guys who facilitate child abuse with their silence, but you can have your own views on that. Just different standards of personal conduct. Maybe the victims could persuade you otherwise, but probably not.

 

[Icebear]

Well, again, everyone has different codes of conduct. The RC hierarchy did what was required of them by church law in their institution about the horrible abuses going on. And it grew into a massive system of accommodation. None of the prelates "needed" to speak up about the abuses, and all but a few ignored them.

Paterno also did just what was "needed" for himself and by law, and for that he has stained his reputation forever. Sure, blame it all on the media, but please don't dare ever give us any platitudes about saintly Joe just needing pass on the info of abuse revolving around his depended-on defensive coordinator. We have hopefully moved nowadays to less savage times where that type of thinking doesn't hold sway anymore, and yes there is a moral obligation to the victims, to the school, and to Paterno himself that he refused to acknowledge when the repeated acts were told to him. You also have no problem with Paterno's adamant blindness to the controversy and his lack of interest, and there is a very fine line between being genuinely "in the dark" and being a willing accessory to the cover-up.

Blaming the media doesn't cut it anymore.

Since you do not live as a mandated reporter under PA law and I do I can tell you that you are off the mark. We are warned not to make further inquiries once we have reported suspected abuse or we can face interference and obstruction of justice charges. The training is very specific. You report it to the top of the pyramid and let it go. If I wrote the law I would require it to be the State Police but that is not how the law is written.

The comparison to the RC structure has no validity because there is no civil authority there. They forewent public civil obligations ignoring the civil. The civil law was fulfilled by JoePA.

Blaming the media is relevant because they cut and pasted what they wanted to paint a particular picture. Tell me how you know that your opinion is based on anything more than a carefully or sloppily selectively contructed version of the community and the events. Read Posansky's book. He is frank and honest in his assessment of Joe and his flaws.

 

[HoopsFan21]

If you say so. Some of us don't really worship guys who facilitate child abuse with their silence, but you can have your own views on that. Just different standards of personal conduct. Maybe the victims could persuade you otherwise, but probably not.

It's not that. You have the typical media driven hysterical response to this story. I do not worship anything about PSU or the Paterno family, but I will readily admit that I don't know the whole story, and neither do most people who are screaming for a public hanging who have mostly based their opinion on biased sources like ESPN and the bought by PSU (as if that isn't suspicious in and of itself) Freeh report.

 

[DobbsRover2]

It's not that. You have the typical media driven hysterical response to this story. I do not worship anything about PSU or the Paterno family, but I will readily admit that I don't know the whole story, and neither do most people who are screaming for a public hanging who have mostly based their opinion on biased sources like ESPN and the bought by PSU (as if that isn't suspicious in and of itself) Freeh report.

A few basic facts were brought out that you can't just sweep with claims of some media hysteria witch hunt. Joe Paterno was informed by his assistant of what had happened in a shower room, and he decided over the years that the only follow-up that was needed from him was to have Sandusky's responsibilities quietly closed down so that he could be shunted off to his "charity work" with young boys.

If you feel that Paterno's decision is an acceptable course of conduct and you want to blame the hang'em-high media and an investigation team for in your view being too eager to drag the ugly facts into the light, that is again your right. A certain religious institution also has used the same arguments about the "hysterical media" and the "we can't really know what happened because we don't want to look" strategy to stretch out the years of abuse. Blaming the media has always been a useful tactic to use when have a lot of skeletons you want to hide.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Since you do not live as a mandated reporter under PA law and I do I can tell you that you are off the mark. We are warned not to mke further inquiries once we have reported suspected abuse or we can face interference and obstruction of justice charges. The training is very specific. You report it to the top of the pyramid and let it go. If I wrote the law I would require it to be the State Police but that is not how the law is written.

The comparison to the RC structure has no validity because there is no civil authority there.

Blaming the media is relevant because they cut and pasted what they wanted to paint a particular picture. Tell me how you know that your opinion is based on anything more than a carefully or sloppily selectively contructed version of the community and the events. Read Posansky's book. He is frank and honest in his assessment of Joe and his flaws.

Ah, the letter of the law. We can never do more than just bow our heads to the letter of the law, can we?

There are times that require better from us than "the letter of the law," and the country has gone through a number of them in its history, because as you know the letter of the law is not always sufficient when there are those, like Curley and Schultz, who unwilling to obey the law sufficiently to bring about an inconvenient justice.

None of us can say if we were in Paterno's position with the predicament in his role of a top authority at PSU whether we would do better than just pass it on to the top of the pyramid and then shut up and walk away from it all. When no justice is carried out after many years and abusers are left in positions to further abuse, we can hide behind a law that says that to speak out and "make further inquiries" is a crime. I would hope for better from all, whether in PA or elsewhere where the laws about handling these situations must be wrestled with. I can tell you that an incident in my town involving a school official in a similar situation back in the early 2000s was handled much differently, but maybe NY laws are different than PA's.

Civil authority or church authority, if you see no connection there, I'm sorry. An officer of an institution reports the facts to the higher authority and then walks away. There is no law that ultimately shields our consciences from the act of being morally blind when we have the power and responsibility to affect the stream of abuses occurring under us.

 

[Icebear]

Did you miss the part of obstruction and liability to prosecution. There is a reason for that law. Well intended people have made cases impossible to prosecute.

Also, JoePA did follow up with Curley and was told it was being followed up. He reported the same back to McQuerry. McQuerry is on record as such. Joe had no power to investigate. The buck stops with Curley and Schultz. Top of the pyramid in the the AD and the university security department. They failed everyone: the abused, their families, the student body, the alumni, and the university.

 

[David 76]

Did I understand correctly? PA law REQUIRES JoPa to report to university authorities but forbids him to speak to Child Protective Services or the Police? This is either not true or it is the weirdest effen law I've ever seen. I'm a mandated reporter in CT and it doesn't matter what my boss says, I am required to report.Same in every state i know of.

I'll bet anything Paterno wishes he could have had that decision back. I don't know what it would take for his fans to come around.
Judgmental? When it comes to scarring kids for the rest of their life? You bet

BTW, police have jurisdiction over priests. Bishops just kept it "in house" like PSU.

Original topic, while not comparable to PSU, what UNC did appears to be outrageous. If shown to be true, they should be severely punished. But by the standard stated in the second half of this thread, if they raped kids we could not judge what they did because we weren't there. An amazing double standard.

 

[David 76]

All right. Calming down. I could have been less intense. I work in the field and this is a tough topic. Apologies for too much attitude. But I seriously disagree. I don't know Paterno's level of culpability. But someone(s) there should do time.

 

[Icebear]

Did I understand correctly? PA law REQUIRES JoPa to report to university authorities but forbids him to speak to Child Protective Services or the Police? This is either not true or it is the weirdest effen law I've ever seen. I'm a mandated reporter in CT and it doesn't matter what my boss says, I am required to report.Same in every state i know of.
Not in PA nor in many states involving educators. I have repeatedly confirmed this a number of parishioners who are teachers and administrators. The teacher who hands it on may be interviewed by Youth and Family Services but their reporting ends with passing it on to their principal or the designated administrative person. Joe did exactly that. Did you ever see the reports that he consulted the policy manual? He did.

I'll bet anything Paterno wishes he could have had that decision back. I don't know what it would take for his fans to come around.
Joe said as much but he, also, was clear saying that desire was based on knowing more than he did at the time.

Judgmental? When it comes to scarring kids for the rest of their life? You bet
It wasn't my comment but I believe the point was being judgmental without facts.

BTW, police have jurisdiction over priests. Bishops just kept it "in house" like PSU.
Exactly. What is not parallel is comparing religious law to civil law. Obviously, the civil law applies to all. My denomination has dealt directly and swiftly when abusers have been uncovered.

Original topic, while not comparable to PSU, what UNC did appears to be outrageous. If shown to be true, they should be severely punished. But by the standard stated in the second half of this thread, if they raped kids we could not judge what they did because we weren't there. An amazing double standard.

Yes, the PA law is as I reported. Those in academic institutions pass it on to administrators. That portion of the law is specific to educators. I have addressed the issue with my congressman in the past. I do not think it is good law.

 

[David 76]

That is outrageous. Putting the fox in charge of the hen house. If I don't think one of my employees should report, and they think they do, they must report and are exempt from retribution.
It is always clear here, we report, protective services investigates (or the police in a situation like PSU). We don't decide if it is really abuse.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

That is outrageous. Putting the fox in charge of the hen house. If I don't think one of my employees should report, and they think they do, they must report and are exempt from retribution.
It is always clear here, we report, protective services investigates (or the police in a situation like PSU). We don't decide if it is really abuse.

A number of years ago as I was pondering my future after my job ended, I did a good deal of research into the possibility of providing some audit services (not books, policies and procedures) for the multiple small churches in the NJ area. As part of that I discovered the various mandatory reporting laws of the various local states that I would have been working in - in fact, the information in NJ that I could find at the time was so vague that I had to correspond by e-mail with the state office responsible to get a clear understanding.

Pennsylvania's law was very specific and very well laid out in numerous web sources - and as Icebear reports it so far as I remember.

One can over-simplify things, because the importance of reporting suspected abuse includes, or ought to, training to recognize abuse.

It is not an "easy" area to fathom.

 

[Icebear]

That is outrageous. Putting the fox in charge of the hen house. If I don't think one of my employees should report, and they think they do, they must report and are exempt from retribution.
It is always clear here, we report, protective services investigates (or the police in a situation like PSU). We don't decide if it is really abuse.

No one said anything different than what you just wrote. All I am talking about is where for PA educators a teacher reports (to the administrator) who then files the report with Youth and Family and police. In the case to PSU those are exactly who Tim Curley and Gary Schultz are the administrator and the person responsible for the university police who are a full police force. Required reporting to State Police would help to move such reports beyond all local interests and politics not just at PSU or any university but, also, local communities.