Thoughts on UConn recruiting from Louisville's Walz's World Forum

[Charliebball]

Kind of bored waiting for the brackets so decided to take a quick look at what some of the better teams fans are thinking these days. Interesting to read their thoughts about the state of WCBB and Uconn.


StraightFrom40216 wrote:silknsteel wrote:
Can''t believe UConn players enjoy playing in that crumy league and pounding Memphis, USF, East Carolina, etc. by 40+ points every game. Their recruiting has to eventually take a hit.

You would think so, but as long as Geno schedules non-conference games like he did this year (Notre Dame and South Carolina) the lure of being in the Final Four every year might overcome the weak conference schedule.

There are definitely 2 sides to their situation. While it is a crappy conference that they run roughshod over, they still played games against 8 top 25 teams, which is the same as Notre Dame, Baylor, Texas, Oregon St, etc did. They schedule anyone and everyone, so they travel a lot. Their games still get major coverage, so even though the conference is nothing, they are still on TV a lot (considering it's women). They have a very large and loyal fanbase. For the best players, it's almost a guarantee to make the WNBA and the Olympic teams etc. It's practically a guaranteed Final Four, if not outright title. So he will get top girls every year.

But with more and more girls and programs around the country getting serious about the sport, there are several teams that are moving up the line of top tier. I was surprised at some of the teams that were "top 25" when the women's leagues really got started. Uconn was NOT there until Geno. Surprisingly enough UK was ranked in the top 25 quite a bit back in the late 70s and early 80s -- then fell off until recent years. South Carolina was ranked in the 80s, WKU was good, of course Tenn, and Duke and UNC came strong in the 90s.

The BE was actually one of the better conferences for ladies when we went there as DePaul was usually good, Rutgers had a good run.

I think as long as the current coaches are at Maryland, ND, Baylor, Stanford, South Carolina, Uconn, UK, us -- these teams will remain pretty consistent top 25 teams.

We don't have the same long-term history, but I think we are making our mark -- as others said, our arena is great and we get to play there (most women don't get to use the best arena at their places), we have amazing fan support, we have a really good athletic environment across multiple sports (supporting each other), it's a nice community, big enough but small enough to not get lost, and a great staff. Consistency in the top 25 is a draw -- chances at big tourney runs is important to some.

 

[UcMiami]

Of course he forgets that Uconn players used to enjoying pounding on Big East teams like Louisville as well. Or that they really enjoy pounding on ACC teams like Duke and used to pound on Syracuse as well, and what was the MOV against FSU? Oh, yeah 24, sort of like Uconn's average MOV against Louisville.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

He/she has a little selective memory regarding the oBE, but the post is pretty good otherwise.

 

[Nuyoika]

The post is actually quite near sighted. I mean I can't imagine why anyone would want to play for a coach who has won 10 National Championships . People have this obsession with conferences as if they are what make a player great. If you are a top rated recruit who wants to excel in college then move on to the WNBA; UConn is the place to go. They have proven it over and over and over again. I don't think its a coincidence that half the US Women's National team were former UConn players. I think fans and the media care more about conferences than players do.

 

[EricLA]

Of course he forgets that Uconn players used to enjoying pounding on Big East teams like Louisville as well. Or that they really enjoy pounding on ACC teams like Duke and used to pound on Syracuse as well, and what was the MOV against FSU? Oh, yeah 24, sort of like Uconn's average MOV against Louisville.

UCONN faced L'ville I think twice in NC games. Did L'ville even get the loss to within 30 points? They are a dreadful matchup for UCONN.

And for the record, the American may get 3 teams in the dance, unless Temple gets bumped out. They should also have 3 or 4 in the WNIT. Before people go on and on about what an awful conference it is, let's remember it's young, at least 5 or 6 teams are on the rise and moving in the right direction, and just because your jersey says Wisconsin, or LSU, or TCU doens't mean you are a good, or even an average team.

Most teams in the bottom of the power conferences would get their asses kicked by the teams in the upper part of the American. And this year, I'd stack UCONN, USF and Temple up against the top 3 of any conference in the nation.

 

[lne001]

I'd stack UCONN, USF and Temple up against the top 3 of any conference in the nation.

Yah, but would you match USF (RPI 20)/Temple (70) against Syracuse(13)/Louisville(14), Texas(7)/West Virginia(22), Kentucky(12)/Texas A&M(19), and several others that are just as much a mismatch. Your statement is the equivalent of my saying that Warren Buffet, me and my neighbor stack up well financially with the top 3 millionaires in the world.

 

[EricLA]

Yah, but would you match USF (RPI 20)/Temple (70) against Syracuse(13)/Louisville(14), Texas(7)/West Virginia(22), Kentucky(12)/Texas A&M(19), and several others that are just as much a mismatch. Your statement is the equivalent of my saying that Warren Buffet, me and my neighbor stack up well financially with the top 3 millionaires in the world.

Yeah actually I would. RPI is a joke. No one should ever confuse it with something that predicts who might actually win a basketball game.

If you think that the income gap between you and Warren Buffet is equivalent to the gap between Syracuse, Texas, aTm, Seton Hall, Ohio State or Arizona State vs. USF is, then you need a lesson in math. How would USF and Temple match up against those teams? Don't know and we won't necessarily see it in the NCAA's, but both teams will have a chance to show "what they got" so to speak (USF did lose a squeaker to Baylor by 3 though). My point was that the gap between the P5 and the American is not nearly as cavernous as some people, especially those in the SEC and ACC, might think, as evidenced by your really inane analogy.

My point, even if i was a little overly ambitious, is that the American is a conference on the rise. Is it a "sexy" conference with teams at the top like USF, Temple, Memphis, ECU and Tulane? Hell no. Is it a conference I want to stay in forever? Again, Hell no. BUT... if we are stuck in the conference for any length of time, I do at least like the upward trajectory of a decent number of teams from a WCBB perspective.

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

Yah, but would you match USF (RPI 20)/Temple (70) against Syracuse(13)/Louisville(14), Texas(7)/West Virginia(22), Kentucky(12)/Texas A&M(19), and several others that are just as much a mismatch. Your statement is the equivalent of my saying that Warren Buffet, me and my neighbor stack up well financially with the top 3 millionaires in the world.

I would. USF is an even bet against any of those teams. Temple would give them all a good game , and if playing all 6 would likely pull out a couple of wins. You could take an All-Star team from those 6 schools and it would still lose to UConn by double-digits.

I think that the AAC is doing just fine. I see many teams that are better today than they have been for quite some time, and they appear to be getting stronger. IMO there will be 3 AAC teams in the NCAA tournament this year, and there should be 3-4 teams next year.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Yeah actually I would. RPI is a joke. No one should ever confuse it with something that predicts who might actually win a basketball game.

And your statement is just dumb. If you think that the income gap between you and Warren Buffet is equivalent to the gap between Syracuse, Texas, aTm, Seton Hall, Ohio State or Arizona State vs. USF is, then you need a lesson in math. How would USF and Temple match up against those teams? Don't know and we won't necessarily see it in the NCAA's, but both teams will have a chance to show "what they got" so to speak (USF did lose a squeaker to Baylor by 3 though). My point was that the gap between the P5 and the American is not nearly as cavernous as some people, especially those in the SEC and ACC, might think, as evidenced by your really inane analogy.

My point, even if i was a little overly ambitious, is that the American is a conference on the rise. Is it a "sexy" conference with teams at the top like USF, Temple, Memphis, ECU and Tulane? Hell no. Is it a conference I want to stay in forever? Again, Hell no. BUT... if we are stuck in the conference for any length of time, I do at least like the upward trajectory of a decent number of teams from a WCBB perspective.

The problem is that there has never been an American (or current BE) before. The gap between the P5 and the American / BE is a lot less than the gap between the P5 and most other conferences. That said, most of the American would be on the bottom of a P5 conference. USF would (or could) certainly compete near the top of the conference, I'm sure Temple would be competitive in the top half of the P5 conferences, the other somewhat decent schools in the American are hard to get a handle on due to inconsistency, and some would be absolutely at the bottom.

The poster you were answering incorrectly used RPI as a predictor, which it isn't. Never was. Of his example of 6 schools to match USF or Temple against, I suspect USF could (but wouldn't) win all of them (I don't know how they would fare) while Temple probably could realistically hope to take 2 and could lose to all of them.

As always, it is not material to try to tie this to UConn, because, in the end, UConn would (currently) win any conference they were in.

 

[UconnWBB]

One other thing that helps the teams in our conference is the actual PLAYING of UConn, especially at home. These games draw the largest crowds for those arenas, and give those teams exposure they would not normally get. Additionally, they get the experience of playing against THE top-flight team in the nation, and find out what it takes to be/get better. Invaluable!!

 

[lne001]

Yeah actually I would. RPI is a joke. No one should ever confuse it with something that predicts who might actually win a basketball game.

If you think that the income gap between you and Warren Buffet is equivalent to the gap between Syracuse, Texas, aTm, Seton Hall, Ohio State or Arizona State vs. USF is, then you need a lesson in math. How would USF and Temple match up against those teams? Don't know and we won't necessarily see it in the NCAA's, but both teams will have a chance to show "what they got" so to speak (USF did lose a squeaker to Baylor by 3 though). My point was that the gap between the P5 and the American is not nearly as cavernous as some people, especially those in the SEC and ACC, might think, as evidenced by your really inane analogy.

My point, even if i was a little overly ambitious, is that the American is a conference on the rise. Is it a "sexy" conference with teams at the top like USF, Temple, Memphis, ECU and Tulane? Hell no. Is it a conference I want to stay in forever? Again, Hell no. BUT... if we are stuck in the conference for any length of time, I do at least like the upward trajectory of a decent number of teams from a WCBB perspective.

I used RPI because it was the easiest for me. Actually the NCAA does use it to determine the relative strength of teams. The AAC is 7th in conference RPI, even with UConn.

Or would you rather me pull out the Massey or Sagarin point differences, which do predict the likely winner and which will stuff your argument further into the toilet? The AAC is a poor women's basketball league, and their future will be weaker as teams escape to greener pastures (and you better hope that UConn is among them).

 

[lne001]

USF is an even bet against any of those teams.

Please, please, please contact me if you truly believe that; my bank account could use the extra revenue.

 

[Carnac]

The problem is that there has never been an American (or current BE) before. The gap between the P5 and the American / BE is a lot less than the gap between the P5 and most other conferences. That said, most of the American would be on the bottom of a P5 conference. USF would (or could) certainly compete near the top of the conference, I'm sure Temple would be competitive in the top half of the P5 conferences, the other somewhat decent schools in the American are hard to get a handle on due to inconsistency, and some would be absolutely at the bottom.

The poster you were answering incorrectly used RPI as a predictor, which it isn't. Never was. Of his example of 6 schools to match USF or Temple against, I suspect USF could (but wouldn't) win all of them (I don't know how they would fare) while Temple probably could realistically hope to take 2 and could lose to all of them.

As always, it is not material to try to tie this to UConn, because, in the end, UConn would (currently) win any conference they were in.

If this is the case (and I agree), then it's a puzzle to me why so many UConn haters complain that UConn is in a weak conference? You'd think they would be glad that UConn is not in their favorite school's conference, hanging 2 loses on their school twice a year.

Can somebody explain that to me please.

The next time a hater complains, or reminds us that UConn is in a weak conference, ask them if they would like for UConn to join their conference.

 

[Blueballer]

Please, please, please contact me if you truly believe that; my bank account could use the extra revenue.

Well I would like to agree with their confidence in USF. I would like to IF USF played every game as tough as they do against us.
Unfortunately there is no guarantee they will.

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

There are different standpoints from which people watch basketball games. Some are just enjoying the spectacle, some the competition, some are Homers, some are just hoping to see a particular team lose. Some people analyze the players, match-ups, coaching decisions, and off-ball activity in the games and really understand what they are seeing. All of them have opinions, but those opinions are not necessarily of equal value.

 

[blaqtech]

I totally agree with the poster's comments. UCONN should move out of the AAC and into the AP Top 25 or Coaches Top 25 Conference. Play everyone ranked with 6 volunteers for a 2 second game. Top 16 will be in the Conference Tournament at the end of the regular season.

Fixes the weak conference thing, then everyone can complain about having to play UCONN all the time.

 

[iamcbs]

I think the whole premise of this post is really silly. UConn dominated the Big East as well. How many of their lengthy streaks occurred while they were in the Big East? They won seven of their ten Natty's while members of the Big East. They absolutely destroyed L'Ville and Coach Walz twice in Natty's when he had two of his best players in Angel McCoughtry[sic] and Shoni Schimmel. Recruiting in modern college athletics comes down to exposure for the athlete, amount of early playing time anticipated, and exposure for the athlete. In BB the rise of AAU programs and HS Coaches trying to garner a national profile has exacerbated the problems. Diamond DeShields is a prime example, I don't question her commitment to wanting to win, but her goal seems for her to be the star, while winning. That attitude wouldn't be tolerated at UConn, because of Geno. UConn is the marquee program in WCBB and Geno and CD can pick and choose the players they recruit and there are star players they don't recruit, because they don't fit the UConn profile, even though they did recruit DeShields pretty hard, I don't see them being any less dominant in the future. Someone please tell Kim Mulkey that reports of the demise of UConn have been greatly exaggerated.

 

[EricLA]

There are different standpoints from which people watch basketball games. Some are just enjoying the spectacle, some the competition, some are Homers, some are just hoping to see a particular team lose. Some people analyze the players, match-ups, coaching decisions, and off-ball activity in the games and really understand what they are seeing. All of them have opinions, but those opinions are not necessarily of equal value.

Good point hardhat. I may have been a bit harsh. I DO get that the American is not a good conference. As I said, I know the coaches of ALL UCONN teams want out of the conference ASAP...

But the reality is that may not happen any time soon, if ever. Let's say we are permanently stuck in the conference. Well, go back and look at some of the top teams today - Texas, UCLA, Oregon State, Ohio State, Mississippi State, Colorado State - Yes I know all those are "bigger" name schools, but previous coaches pretty much drove UCLA, Texas and Ohio State down to unranked and average performances. You can add Penn State to the list, as well as LSU, but they've not come back up (LSU probably never will as long as their HC remains). New coaching invigorated the programs and brought terrific recruits and suddenly they are top 25 teams again.

When you look at the coaching in the American, the intensity the coaches in the upper half bring - I believe that in time they can all be not only relevant, but making noise on the national scene (I'm talking about UCONN, USF, Temple, Tulane, Memphis, ECU, SMU and Tulsa. I'm not convinced Houston, Cinci or UCF will ever get out of the American cellar). I don't know the resources any of the American programs have except for UCONN. I think most of the universities in the American take WCBB seriously and hope they have given the coaching staff the resources to improve. I think all the coaches really need to start nabbing some top 100 kids and no better place to look than close to home.

And for the record, I never said that our top 3 would beat the top 3 in every other conference, merely that I'd stack them up against each other. USF and Temple possibly could lose most of the games against the #2 and 3 teams of the other P5 conferences, but most would not be blowouts, and they certainly would likely win a few. I was trying to point out that the American is not some throw away conference like the Big South or MEAC or the Northeast or the Patriot League...

 

[UcMiami]

Uconn is a real 'problem' in the AAC because they do to the teams in the AAC what they do to most teams from the P5 which is blow their doors off. If Uconn down Tuck or Jefferson or Stewart (which happened at least eleven times this year) would lose to one of their conference mates, or at least let them compete in the fourth quarter, that conference mate would get a huge boost. OK State is not a good team, but they beat Baylor because Baylor was down a PG. Baylor won against USF by 3 points at home - nice boost to USF especially when you consider TX couldn't stay on the floor with Baylor.
There are three team that ran their P5 conference or are generally considered far above the rest: ND SC and Baylor
ND - biggest MOV against a ranked team MIA 21, and 4 under 10 points plus the Uconn loss - and at the other end two wins against a terrible BC team by 12 and 13, Duke by 7 and 19, Pitt by 10, GaT by 12 and 9, Clem by 19. Those MOVs make the bottom of the conference look pretty good. Against common Uconn opponents FSU, Depaul, and OSU - average MOV = 7 with a high or 13 and a low of 3. Uconn MOV 28 with a high of 44 and a low of 16.
SC - biggest MOV against a ranked team - KY by 30 in the conference semi, next biggest 15 against FLA, with 7 11 points or under including 1, 2, and 3 point wins. And the SEC teams always seem to make their conference mates look good by suppressing their offenses.
Baylor - biggest MOV against a ranked team 26 against conference mate TX at home with 5 wins of 3, 5, 7, 8, and 10 against teams ranked 15-25. In conference they generally cruised but still let teams stick around with MOVs of 6 and 11 against bottom end teams TCU and KSU and wins by 5 and 8 against WVU and OK and of course the Ok St lost.

On RPI - when you look at most of the top teams what stands out is how much of their score is playing their conference schedule. And it really is an index meaning it just lists schools in descending order and says nothing about the distance between them in the actual calculation so the top 20 covers .09 in the raw number, the next 20 .02, the next 20 .018, the next 20 .014, etc. until you get to the bottom where the last 29 are back up to .07 in variance. And no one could really define what the real on court difference between #50 SDSt at .5823 and #70 Georgia Tech at .5666 actually is. Georgia Tech played 9 top 50 RPI teams and won 1. SDSU played 5 and won 1, SDSU had three losses outside the top 50, GaT had 2.

 

[Padutch5]

Kind of bored waiting for the brackets so decided to take a quick look at what some of the better teams fans are thinking these days. Interesting to read their thoughts about the state of WCBB and Uconn.


StraightFrom40216 wrote:silknsteel wrote:
Can''t believe UConn players enjoy playing in that crumy league and pounding Memphis, USF, East Carolina, etc. by 40+ points every game. Their recruiting has to eventually take a hit.

You would think so, but as long as Geno schedules non-conference games like he did this year (Notre Dame and South Carolina) the lure of being in the Final Four every year might overcome the weak conference schedule.

There are definitely 2 sides to their situation. While it is a crappy conference that they run roughshod over, they still played games against 8 top 25 teams, which is the same as Notre Dame, Baylor, Texas, Oregon St, etc did. They schedule anyone and everyone, so they travel a lot. Their games still get major coverage, so even though the conference is nothing, they are still on TV a lot (considering it's women). They have a very large and loyal fanbase. For the best players, it's almost a guarantee to make the WNBA and the Olympic teams etc. It's practically a guaranteed Final Four, if not outright title. So he will get top girls every year.

But with more and more girls and programs around the country getting serious about the sport, there are several teams that are moving up the line of top tier. I was surprised at some of the teams that were "top 25" when the women's leagues really got started. Uconn was NOT there until Geno. Surprisingly enough UK was ranked in the top 25 quite a bit back in the late 70s and early 80s -- then fell off until recent years. South Carolina was ranked in the 80s, WKU was good, of course Tenn, and Duke and UNC came strong in the 90s.

The BE was actually one of the better conferences for ladies when we went there as DePaul was usually good, Rutgers had a good run.

I think as long as the current coaches are at Maryland, ND, Baylor, Stanford, South Carolina, Uconn, UK, us -- these teams will remain pretty consistent top 25 teams.

We don't have the same long-term history, but I think we are making our mark -- as others said, our arena is great and we get to play there (most women don't get to use the best arena at their places), we have amazing fan support, we have a really good athletic environment across multiple sports (supporting each other), it's a nice community, big enough but small enough to not get lost, and a great staff. Consistency in the top 25 is a draw -- chances at big tourney runs is important to some.

This is an interesting if not frustrating discussion. I can't believe nobody remembers the crap UCONN took in the early years of UCONN's reign in their East. If I remember correctly the Tennessee board liked to call it the Big Least. Our strength of schedule was not good despite scheduling good out of conference teams , like Tennessee. What happened there, which I believe will happen here, is that others in the conference raised their level of play [coaching and players] until, at the end, it was the strongest conference.

 

[lne001]

According to Sagarin (which does project winner and margin), USF is a 3-5 point underdog against any of the the 2nd place P5 teams. You may consider that "stacking up", whatever the hell that is, but I don't. The race may not always go to the swiftest and strongest, but that is the way to bet. Temple, on the other hand, does not come close, being projected to lose to any of the 3rd place teams by 7-10 points, definitely not in the neighborhood. It gets worse as you go down the line.

 

[lne001]

Good point hardhat. I may have been a bit harsh. I DO get that the American is not a good conference. As I said, I know the coaches of ALL UCONN teams want out of the conference ASAP...

And for the record, I never said that our top 3 would beat the top 3 in every other conference, merely that I'd stack them up against each other. USF and Temple possibly could lose most of the games against the #2 and 3 teams of the other P5 conferences, but most would not be blowouts, and they certainly would likely win a few. I was trying to point out that the American is not some throw away conference like the Big South or MEAC or the Northeast or the Patriot League...

I read this after my post above, so I may have been a bit harsh as well. I certainly agree with your last sentence, but that was not how you framed your thesis. I would trust we both agree that UConn sports need a better conference to flourish.

 

[chrissaran]

USF: Courtney Williams, Alisia Jenkins, Shalethia Stringfield, Laura Ferreira and Kitija Laksa is a solid starting five capable of beating most teams. The three point loss to Baylor at Baylor proves the point that they are a top team and capable of going to the round of sixteen and maybe even the round of eight where almost anything can happen.

 

[chrissaran]

Yah, but would you match USF (RPI 20)/Temple (70) against Syracuse(13)/Louisville(14), Texas(7)/West Virginia(22), Kentucky(12)/Texas A&M(19), and several others that are just as much a mismatch. Your statement is the equivalent of my saying that Warren Buffet, me and my neighbor stack up well financially with the top 3 millionaires in the world.

Warren Buffet is a billionaire, 66 times over.

 

[baggerbob]

I think the whole premise of this post is really silly. UConn dominated the Big East as well. How many of their lengthy streaks occurred while they were in the Big East? They won seven of their ten Natty's while members of the Big East. They absolutely destroyed L'Ville and Coach Walz twice in Natty's when he had two of his best players in Angel McCoughtry[sic] and Shoni Schimmel. Recruiting in modern college athletics comes down to exposure for the athlete, amount of early playing time anticipated, and exposure for the athlete. In BB the rise of AAU programs and HS Coaches trying to garner a national profile has exacerbated the problems. Diamond DeShields is a prime example, I don't question her commitment to wanting to win, but her goal seems for her to be the star, while winning. That attitude wouldn't be tolerated at UConn, because of Geno. UConn is the marquee program in WCBB and Geno and CD can pick and choose the players they recruit and there are star players they don't recruit, because they don't fit the UConn profile, even though they did recruit DeShields pretty hard, I don't see them being any less dominant in the future. Someone please tell Kim Mulkey that reports of the demise of UConn have been greatly exaggerated.

The biggest difference between Stewie and many other stars, she wanted to be the best player she could be, Geno was her ticket to that happening. She also wanted to win 4 National Championships, that is a product of playing a t Uconn, and Geno making her the best player she can be.