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Students Subsidizing Athletics

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The way I look at it is that any loss on athletics is simply a marketing expense for the university as a whole. When you look at the Athletics dept deficits vs. the overall $2billion+ university budget, the expense is not as significant. As @Pudge pointed out, it's about brand building. As Susan has said, athletics is the front porch for our university.

Now, if students should directly shoulder (a portion of) that expense, I don't know. I suppose built into their tuition are marketing expenses, but I could be wrong.

$2 billion?

Cincy's like UConn's is around $1B.

Cincy though has a big research hospital which accounts for a huge part of the expenditures. As well, any research funding (which for Cincy is not that large outside of Biomed and the hospital) is not fungible. It's dedicated. They are at 362m research per year with 89m outside the hospital).

From looking at the breakdown of their budget, the academic side is operating on 495m a year.

I dont care how you brand, if you are slashing by 25% per student on your curriculum (i.e. the fungible side of the budget) you are reducing services. Bottom line. You can brand all you want, but if your product is shoddy, sooner or later it's going to bite you in the butt.
 

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$2 billion?

Cincy's like UConn's is around $1B.

Cincy though has a big research hospital which accounts for a huge part of the expenditures. As well, any research funding (which for Cincy is not that large outside of Biomed and the hospital) is not fungible. It's dedicated. They are at 362m research per year with 89m outside the hospital).

From looking at the breakdown of their budget, the academic side is operating on 495m a year.

I dont care how you brand, if you are slashing by 25% per student on your curriculum (i.e. the fungible side of the budget) you are reducing services. Bottom line. You can brand all you want, but if your product is shoddy, sooner or later it's going to bite you in the butt.
Including UConn health, yes $2billion. $2.1billion to be exact. Get some facts, and come back and see me.
Source: http://uconn.edu/content/uploads/2015/02/UConn_Facts_2015_Final.pdf
image.jpg
 
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I'm always a little sketchy about schools saying they're losing money on sports, since they count scholarships like they're a cash expenditure.
 
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Seems impossible that the first cut at Monroe and Lafayette wouldn't be the entire athletic program.

LSU is doomed. Cutting the football program would cause a war in the Bayou. To keep LUSA in complaice with Title IX, they can't touch the women's teams. Everyone else is doomed, specially with the following statement - "Louisiana lawmakers must show the moral courage to think beyond elections." No US politician on either side of the aisle knows how to do that anymore, especially a Governor (Jindal) who has White House aspirations.
 

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According to most of the posters on this board, we can reduce the student subsidy with exposure on ESPN. Somehow.

No most of the posters have said that if this all we are going to get we may as well take the deal that gets us the most exposure. The thought being that exposure will help the program maintain it's high profile on some fronts and perhaps raise it profile on other fronts, thus aiding our chances at getting a P5 invite. I understand this does not jive with the imaginary conversations you have in your own head but there you go...
 
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I'm always a little sketchy about schools saying they're losing money on sports, since they count scholarships like they're a cash expenditure.

Why wouldn't they? Departments and colleges are actually paid according to their head count.
 
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Here's one opinion as to how the financial transaction really goes down. . .

http://regressing.deadspin.com/how-athletic-departments-and-the-media-fudge-the-cost-1570827027

This is wrong. Guy doesn't know basic university funding. Tuition is but 25%-40% of the cost per student. most funds for universities come from a combination of research, endowment, and taxpayer subsidy. Tuition is between 25-40%. This guy has ADs paying schools for the total costs 100% of the expenditures per student. He is way way way off.

It's pretty easy to figure this out as well. Take the total budget and divide by number of students. That gives you expenditures per student. Then take the tuition, multiply by number of students. Compare that figure to actual tuition revenues in order to get a comparison between tuition paid and potential tuition (i.e. ex-scholarships). This would give you the amount a school provides in aid.

Regardless, at EVERY public institution, students are paying much less in tuition than the actual cost of their education. At private universities it's the reverse.

This guy's argument only makes sense for private universities. There, he has a point.

Let me just give you a simple figure to put this in perspective. Rutgers spent $47 million of student fees and academic funds to run their athletic department last year. Their total of scholarship returned to the university was $10 million. That money actually gets paid to the academic departments that teach the athletes. It might be swept into the general fund at first, but then it is doled out to the departments.

That's a deficit of $37 million even after scholarships.

People keep saying scholarship money isn't real, but yet I need 50 students in a class for it not to be cancelled, and if I fall below that, I owe the university labor. One way or the other, my salary depends on the number of students I teach and the intensity of the type of teaching (i.e. some classes are lecture and can be larger, others are smaller and require a lot more handholding, paper-correcting, etc.) Trust me, we watch head counts very closely. 4 times a year, each and every year, we do beancounting of this sort. All raises depend on it.
 
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This is wrong. Guy doesn't know basic university funding. Tuition is but 25%-40% of the cost per student. most funds for universities come from a combination of research, endowment, and taxpayer subsidy. Tuition is between 25-40%. This guy has ADs paying schools for the total costs 100% of the expenditures per student. He is way way way off.

It's pretty easy to figure this out as well. Take the total budget and divide by number of students. That gives you expenditures per student. Then take the tuition, multiply by number of students. Compare that figure to actual tuition revenues in order to get a comparison between tuition paid and potential tuition (i.e. ex-scholarships). This would give you the amount a school provides in aid.

Regardless, at EVERY public institution, students are paying much less in tuition than the actual cost of their education. At private universities it's the reverse.

This guy's argument only makes sense for private universities. There, he has a point.

Let me just give you a simple figure to put this in perspective. Rutgers spent $47 million of student fees and academic funds to run their athletic department last year. Their total of scholarship returned to the university was $10 million. That money actually gets paid to the academic departments that teach the athletes. It might be swept into the general fund at first, but then it is doled out to the departments.

That's a deficit of $37 million even after scholarships.

People keep saying scholarship money isn't real, but yet I need 50 students in a class for it not to be cancelled, and if I fall below that, I owe the university labor. One way or the other, my salary depends on the number of students I teach and the intensity of the type of teaching (i.e. some classes are lecture and can be larger, others are smaller and require a lot more handholding, paper-correcting, etc.) Trust me, we watch head counts very closely. 4 times a year, each and every year, we do beancounting of this sort. All raises depend on it.

Where did you get that the author was discussing tuition as a percentage of overall budget? Additionally, he was was discussing GIA, which includes substantially more cost than tuition, as he puts it, "the full, zero-financial-aid price of attending the school, getting room and board, and getting all required books". And in fairness to the author, he stated the actual cost is dependent upon a number of things, and varies by school, major and even individual student. The only real exception is if the school has zero capacity and there is a real cost of opportunity. Scholarship money is real, but the true cost can be substantially less. How this all gets portrayed and presented is another story.

Just like you, the parent company of a dance studio has determined that 50 students will enable it to meet their revenue and profit goals (or "break even" if it's a nonprofit). They have capacity to accommodate 10 more kids. For every kid they add above 50, how much additional cost is there and what does the gross margin of these additional students look like? It's pretty good. Additionally, the parent company tells the instructor she'll get a bonus for every student over 50 that signs up for her class (they can afford to, a chunk of their tuition is going straight to the bottom line). Now let's say that same dance studio decides it wants to give two talented kids a spot for free, they might choose to set their goal at 52 students. Or, lets say the school can accommodate only 50 students, but want to add the 2 talented students because it will ultimately drive business for their other programs or allow them to expand and add more classes, there is indeed a cost of opportunity, but one could argue that's it's really an investment in future growth.
 
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Where did you get that the author was discussing tuition as a percentage of overall budget? Additionally, he was was discussing GIA, which includes substantially more cost than tuition, as he puts it, "the full, zero-financial-aid price of attending the school, getting room and board, and getting all required books". And in fairness to the author, he stated the actual cost is dependent upon a number of things, and varies by school, major and even individual student. The only real exception is if the school has zero capacity and there is a real cost of opportunity. Scholarship money is real, but the true cost can be substantially less. How this all gets portrayed and presented is another story.

Just like you, the parent company of a dance studio has determined that 50 students will enable it to meet their revenue and profit goals (or "break even" if it's a nonprofit). They have capacity to accommodate 10 more kids. For every kid they add above 50, how much additional cost is there and what does the gross margin of these additional students look like? It's pretty good. Additionally, the parent company tells the instructor she'll get a bonus for every student over 50 that signs up for her class (they can afford to, a chunk of their tuition is going straight to the bottom line). Now let's say that same dance studio decides it wants to give two talented kids a spot for free, they might choose to set their goal at 52 students. Or, lets say the school can accommodate only 50 students, but want to add the 2 talented students because it will ultimately drive business for their other programs or allow them to expand and add more classes, there is indeed a cost of opportunity, but one could argue that's it's really an investment in future growth.

Where? Because (as you highlighted) he thinks the full price is actually tuition - scholarship or aid.

It's not.

The full price is quite different.

Look at the quote bolded above.

He assumes tuition - scholarship = full price.
 
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Where? Because (as you highlighted) he thinks the full price is actually tuition - scholarship or aid.

It's not.

The full price is quite different.

Look at the quote bolded above.

He assumes tuition - scholarship = full price.

What? No, he believes full price is tuition, room, board, fees, and books (just like the bolded quote).

UB describes GIA as "a full grant covering tuition, fees, room, board and textbooks."
http://www.ubbulls.com/students/handbook/ncaaregulations

The author is suggesting GIA - Direct Institutional Support (and more) is a better indicator of net "price", and suggests actual cost could be significantly less. He is right in pointing out that no money ever changes hands, it's done on paper and likely crafted for optimum effect. The following article states "As an athletic department, UB received more than $13 million in direct institutional support, $8 million in student fees, $2 million in indirect facilities and administrative support and no money from state or government support."
http://www.ubspectrum.com/article/2015/04/moneyball-the-cost-of-division-i-football-at-ub

Maybe I'm missing something really obvious. . .
 
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What? No, he believes full price is tuition, room, board, fees, and books (just like the bolded quote).

UB describes GIA as "a full grant covering tuition, fees, room, board and textbooks."
http://www.ubbulls.com/students/handbook/ncaaregulations

The author is suggesting GIA - Direct Institutional Support (and more) is a better indicator of net "price", and suggests actual cost could be significantly less. He is right in pointing out that no money ever changes hands, it's done on paper and likely crafted for optimum effect. The following article states "As an athletic department, UB received more than $13 million in direct institutional support, $8 million in student fees, $2 million in indirect facilities and administrative support and no money from state or government support."
http://www.ubspectrum.com/article/2015/04/moneyball-the-cost-of-division-i-football-at-ub

Maybe I'm missing something really obvious. . .

You're looking at full price from the point of view of the customer. Not the full price the school expends per student.

In other words, the link you sent suggested that schools get away with receiving a full 100% of the price per student from the AD whereas in reality there is a discount in financial aid/scholarship for your average student.

I am point out that the reimbursement from the AD, even factoring in financial aid/scholarship, is but a fraction of the costs per student paid by the university. This goes entirely against the author's point in the link. He doesn't seem to realize there are subsidies already built-in for every student that go well beyond the price of tuition. etc.
 
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You're looking at full price from the point of view of the customer. Not the full price the school expends per student.

In other words, the link you sent suggested that schools get away with receiving a full 100% of the price per student from the AD whereas in reality there is a discount in financial aid/scholarship for your average student.

I am point out that the reimbursement from the AD, even factoring in financial aid/scholarship, is but a fraction of the costs per student paid by the university. This goes entirely against the author's point in the link. He doesn't seem to realize there are subsidies already built-in for every student that go well beyond the price of tuition. etc.

The whole basis for the article is that the amounts being put forth by both the AD and University is misrepresented. He is not saying, as you put it, "schools get away with receiving a full 100% of the price per student from the AD." In fact, it's the opposite. What you're saying above overlaps substantially with what he is saying.
 
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The whole basis for the article is that the amounts being put forth by both the AD and University is misrepresented. He is not saying, as you put it, "schools get away with receiving a full 100% of the price per student from the AD." In fact, it's the opposite. What you're saying above overlaps substantially with what he is saying.

He literally said that in the link you quoted:
Instead, it represents a list price that almost no one pays, because most people who attend a college receive institutional financial aid of one kind or another. The list price is the starting point and almost everyone gets a discount off of the list.

He thinks the true cost to the university is tuition - scholarship.

He's absolutely wrong.
 
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Has anyone seen what is going on at LSU? That school is about to implode. As a money maker, the football program wont be touched. But the school itself is going to declare bankruptcy this summer.


I live in Louisiana. That is the fault/result of the Louisiana Constitution that protects everything from legislative budget cuts but education and health care and a Tea Party "governor" (hopeless Presidential candidate who is out of state half the time) following the Tea Party play book by giving away a surplus, basing budgets on unrealistic oil price/revenue estimates (despite being warned by economists) and an outright refusal to raise tax revenues out of loyalty to a pledge to Grover Norquist.
 
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I live in Louisiana. That is the fault/result of the Louisiana Constitution that protects everything from legislative budget cuts but education and health care and a Tea Party "governor" (hopeless Presidential candidate who is out of state half the time) following the Tea Party play book by giving away a surplus, basing budgets on unrealistic oil price/revenue estimates (despite being warned by economists) and an outright refusal to raise tax revenues out of loyalty to a pledge to Grover Norquist.


A Governor who bases state policy on his (hopeless) Presidential aspirations who is around 50% of the time? Where can we sign-up!? Jersey's Governor is out of the office 90% of the time.
 
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He literally said that in the link you quoted:

He thinks the true cost to the university is tuition - scholarship.

He's absolutely wrong.

He stated that the assigned GIA (Grant In Aid [which includes much more than tuition]) "paid" by the AD minus Direct Institutional Support to the AD more closely defines price. In discussing actual cost of the GIA (on the university's side of the books), he suggested that it is likely a fraction of price, but is dependent on many variables, and for schools with limited capacity, high demand and/or low margin, the cost could closely resemble price.

I don't see where he stated that the cost formula is solely comprised of tuition and scholarships. Other direct costs to the university include housing, meals, services, text books. And as you stated above, on the other side of the equation there are grants and other subsidies that have the potential to impact cost.
 
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He stated that the assigned GIA (Grant In Aid [which includes much more than tuition]) "paid" by the AD minus Direct Institutional Support to the AD more closely defines price. In discussing actual cost of the GIA (on the university's side of the books), he suggested that it is likely a fraction of price, but is dependent on many variables, and for schools with limited capacity, high demand and/or low margin, the cost could closely resemble price.

I don't see where he stated that the cost formula is solely comprised of tuition and scholarships. Other direct costs to the university include housing, meals, services, text books. And as you stated above, on the other side of the equation there are grants and other subsidies that have the potential to impact cost.

I don't see at all where we disagree now except for your last sentence.

In the first paragraph, he doesn't seem to realize that GIA minus Support does not come anywhere close to price.

In your last sentence, the subsidies that the academic side pays as expenditure per student (regular students, every student, not just athletes) means that the money they get back from the AD is nowhere near the actual expenditure per student.
 
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I don't see at all where we disagree now except for your last sentence.

In the first paragraph, he doesn't seem to realize that GIA minus Support does not come anywhere close to price.

In your last sentence, the subsidies that the academic side pays as expenditure per student (regular students, every student, not just athletes) means that the money they get back from the AD is nowhere near the actual expenditure per student.

Fair enough. Generally speaking, I think we are in agreement more than disagreement, it just took a while to get there.
 
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Here's more in the New York Times' by Joe Nocera today on the subsidization of athletics generally at the expense of academics and among other funding sources, by the use of student fees. And its all focused on Rutgers.

http://nyti.ms/1EzcLCl
 
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