Ray Allen....not bad.

[Gurleyman]

Actually, we're both wrong. He missed more than 10 games both times (2001-02, 2003-04, 2006-07 and 2011-12). I had already discounted the strike season.

With fact-checking like that, you and I should be professional journalists.

Whoops! I'm even more guilty, as the caller-outter. I missed 2001-02 - for some reason I either thought I read 74 or mis-remembered and thought he only missed eight games that year, instead of 14. Sorry about that.

The reason I pushed back so hard is that there was a BS narrative when he was traded to Boston that the Celtics were getting an injury-prone two guard on the decline that drove me nuts at the time. He had been the most durable player in the league his first six years (he had lingering tendonitis after banging knees with Snow in the playoffs which caused him to finally sit 2-3 weeks and end his streak). He did have two seasons sidetracked in Seattle - the first time he missed the first two months to start of the year, the second time he could have kept playing, but the Sonics were struggling and the playoffs were out of reach, so rather than put off surgery, he shut it down and had it then (helping the Sonics tank for Durant in the process). So it was really only one year in Seattle that his injury problems were significant.

In Boston, he was very durable through four years. The flu a couple times, maybe an ankle roll once, and a couple games he sat to rest for the playoffs. In year five, getting pretty old, he did break down a little. However, the surgeries in Seattle - or maybe simply age - did slow him down ever so much, and Pierce was hands down the better all-around player in that whole era, with Ray filling his role very effectively as well.

 

[svetbird]

I dunno, Kitaman...I am so totally conflicted. Ray, winning games for the Miami Hate! Makes me so sad just to see him wearing that uniform. I am hoping that he gets his 2nd ring & retires on top. Not sure how long I can play the "do I love Ray more than I hate the Heat" game!

I was there. I got over it. Go Ray!

 

[Adios]

Ray Allen sure etched a place for himself in NBA Finals lore. I just hope the Spurs win Game 7.

Ray is a sniper. At the worst time for anyone who wants the Heat to lose. Why Ray??

 

[Matrim55]

Pierce and Ray are both, as many pointed out, first-ballot hall of famers. Great players, both.

One uncontrollable thing that Pierce had in his favor, though, is that he was born at the right time. Ball-dominant wings in slow-it-down halfcourt offenses? That was the story from about 1996 through 2009, which obviously is the bulk of Pierce's best years.

Nobody knew how to correctly use players like Ray during that time. Far too often in Milwaukee and Seattle he was given the ball and told to create for himself, basically "be our Kobe or Iverson or McGrady." And it speaks pretty highly of just how much of a badass Ray was in his prime that he was able to do that at a very, very high level despite playing with the worst collection of bigs imaginable.

Fact is, he was born 10 (or 15) years too soon. If he was coming into his prime now, teams would be able to build entire offensive schemes around his off the ball movement and the space he creates, and beyond "would be able," they'd realize they should. Teams are smarter, and coached better and understand just how important spacing is. 10 years ago, they really didn't.

So I'd argue that Pierce had an era, and a number of teams build perfectly around what he brought to the table. Ray did not.

Here's the thing, though: If he had, I don't believe Ray would ever have been a 30+ PPG scorer or anything like that. He'd have just put up 25 ppg much more efficiently, and allowed the players around him the room to be much more efficient as well.

 

[huskyniner]

How has no one posted the video yet?

 

[Adios]

He was POed at watching Danny Green beat his record. I am at peace now.

 

[Gurleyman]

Excellent points Matrim. Great post. Before he played with KG, the best big he had in his first 11 years was probably Ervin Johnson. A whole collection of misfits.

He elevated a team of mediocre talent in Seattle to contender status briefly (with Rashard Lewis as a wing man)- Jerome James, Vlad Radmanovic, Antonio Daniels, Danny Fortson, Luke Ridnour, Reggie Evans. Other than Lewis, it was basically a team comparable to what Kemba has had. Then after they lost to the Spurs in six (with both Lewis and Radmanovic out with injuries), the whole team blew up - free agents left that the Sonics didn't want to spend on, McMillan was hired by Portland, and it all fell apart. Would have liked to see him paired with Durant, but both parties made out OK with him moving on.

 

[nomar]

Ray may have been better for a two- or three-season stretch, but over the course of the rest of their careers, Paul has been head and shoulders above Ray.

Before Ray won his title with Boston, he was not a HOFer. 80% of fans wouldn't have voted him in. The title helped, but even afterwards a lot of people said he'd have to win ANOTHER title to lock it up. As it turned out, he didn't (Kendrick Perkins' injury took care of that, as did Ray's ice-cold shooting in 2 critical games), but his solid play since then -- together with some major records being set -- eventually established him as a HOFer.

Paul Pierce, I would argue, locked up his HOF induction before Ray even arrived in Boston. Indisputably, once Boston won the title, he was a HOFer. That was 5 years ago.

That's the bottom line, to me, when you're talking about who's had a better career. Paul had a better career before he and Ray became teammates, and there's not even a question of who's had a better career since 2007. That's not even close.

These were my two favorite players, so when they teamed up, I was ecstatic. But there was never a question among Celtics fans who was more valuable.

 

[tzznandrew]

Eh. I think you're overstating this. They were very close. Before then, their career PPG, shooting percentage, etc, were all pretty close (granted, Pierce did have slightly higher averages, although slightly lower shooting percentages).

On top of that, before they teamed up in 2007-08, they each

• had been to the All-Star game every year (except once) since they turned 24
• been named to two All NBA teams (Allen - 2nd and 3rd; Pierce - 3rd 2x)
• had been fringe MVP candidates a couple of times (Pierce 3x, never finishing above 11th; Allen 2x, never finishing above 9th)
• had been Top 10 in PPG a handful of times (Pierce 5x; Allen 4x)

Honestly, I think they both benefitted playing with each other (and Garnett), but I would say Pierce probably benefited from Allen more than vice versa.
And, provided Allen played more years at somewhere near the level he was playing, he was a shoe in. But Pierce needed to the same thing. And the year before Allen was traded to Boston, he averaged 26.4 ppg--the highest of his career--so I think he would have kept it up just fine (Pierce too, as he averaged 25).

 

[UConn990411]

The people who didn't think Ray Allen was a HOFer before winning a title weren't very knowledgable. In fact, I bet those same people would have voted Vince Carter in.

Pierce's and Ray's careers are extremely close, with Pierce getting the edge because of his all-around game. Both guys should make it in on the first ballot, but they're both a notch below the Ducans/Kobes/KGs of the world.

 

[tzznandrew]

The people who didn't think Ray Allen was a HOFer before winning a title weren't very knowledgable. In fact, I bet those same people would have voted Vince Carter in.

Pierce's and Ray's careers are extremely close, with Pierce getting the edge because of his all-around game. Both guys should make it in on the first ballot, but they're both a notch below the Ducans/Kobes/KGs of the world.

Totally agree, although there is an outside shot Carter gets voted into the Hall.

 

[Gurleyman]

Pierce was maybe a hairline above Ray. Head and shoulders above him, no. When they had paired up, they had very similar career numbers, and had limited postseason experience, with each having some signature games (Ray's 46 vs. Sacramento/43 vs. Philly, Pierce's triple-double/40 vs. Indy, etc.). Both had been in the conference finals once. Ray played very well in defeat (shot 48 percent, 48 percent on threes, 2.5:1 assist to turnover ratio, went gonzo in an elimination game with 43 to tie series 3-3), and Pierce frankly soiled himself (shot 36 percent, 21 percent on threes, 1:1 A:TO ratio).

In Game 7 against the Lakers, Ray (3-14) had to guard Kobe (6-24), and Kobe didn't have to guard him. Kobe got to sit back and play 10 feet off Rondo to rest for offense. They basically played to a standstill of coldness, while Pierce (who was 5-15 himself) lost his battle with Metta World Peace (20 points, dagger three) at the three spot. I know Celtics fans like to blame Ray for Game 7, and they certainly could have used another shot or two from him, but damn, Pierce needed to win that head to head battle with MWP and his psychiatrist and he lost it.

(on edit, the reverse was true in that first Cleveland series in 2008, when Pierce was dealing with LeBron, and Ray was losing a battle with Szczerbiak - I'm actually very thankful to Pierce, and PJ Brown, for carrying Ray through that series and saving his rep. Pierce's performance in Game 7 there could be his masterpiece).

Now, in the Big Three Era, I freely agree that Pierce was - part by design of their system, and part skill level at that stage of their career - head and shoulders better. But when you start talking HOF - Ray had one advantage over Pierce, even back in 2007 (moot now, since they will both go). Ray was the best ever at something (or in the discussion among the top two or three). Pierce doesn't have that signature thing that would have made people remember him (which is different now that he was the alpha dog on a great Celtics team that people will remember, with a Finals MVP).

 

[huskyharry]

Congrats to Ray for earning his second ring!

 

[Scoe]

Did you hear what Lebron just said, "You need a little bit of luck to win a title and we had Jesus on our side Jesus Shuttlesworth"

 

[Waquoit]

Pierce was maybe a hairline above Ray. Head and shoulders above him, no.

Pierce was more than a hairline, less than head and shoulders better. A good head, I would say. (Is there bad head?)

 

[ZenConn]

They did a Sport Science on that shot actually. Interesting.

 

[DOZE860]

As much as i did not want the heat to win this, the fact that Ray hit the fade away 3 to send game 6 into overtime, kinda makes it ok.. he basically save Lebron's legacy

 

[Gurleyman]

Pierce was more than a hairline, less than head and shoulders better. A good head, I would say. (Is there bad head?)

Their time together in Boston pushed Pierce ahead, but in the 4-5 years before that, when they were both playing separately and basically in their primes, Ray was marginally better, IMO. Their respective performances in the ECF - although a small sample size - was a huge advantage to Ray. And Ray's best season (2nd team All-NBA, ninth in MVP) was better than Pierce's best at that stage.

Pierce's skill set and craftiness with the ball did allow him to continue to be more effective later in his career. When Ray lost a step, he was reduced to a jump shooter who needed help (screens, passes) getting his shot, whereas Pierce could still use his assortment of stepbacks, duckunders, drives, etc. So I think by being more effective for a longer period of time, Pierce should move slightly ahead.

I will give you eyebrows, but that's my final offer!

 

[Joobie]

Congrats to Ray for earning his second ring!

SO...do you think he'll retire now?

 

[Gurleyman]

I personally don't think he'll retire. He still has a role as a gun for hire where there will be demand for his services. He's still in shape (he played 41 minutes in Game 6), and he actually played good D in the playoffs (Green/Neal were good match-ups for him, but he defended Paul George well too), so he wasn't exposed as old, like he could have been if he had to cover someone like Harden, for example.

But I can't get in his head - you never know when some people think that going out on top feels right. He'll do OK in life after basketball, so he doesn't have to hang on for the sake of hanging on.

 

[jleves]

SO...do you think he'll retire now?

I think he wants to get to 3000 3 pointers. He's only 143 away. Two seasons and done imo. Maybe two more rings to go with the all time record would ink him as an all time great.

 

[Kitaman]

They did a Sport Science on that shot actually. Interesting.

Thanks its a fancy way of saying that Ray made an accurate/tough shot. Lebron owes part of his legacy to Ray's shot. Even I was ready to bash his crunch time performance until that shot. He more than made up for it, with my respect!

 

[Gurleyman]

The most impressive part of that video, I think, was subtle - his heels never touching the ground as he backpedaled. Those little things that are the result of practice/repetition that make all the difference when you can do them instinctively when you need them most.

The eight degree difference in his usual shooting arc was probably the mental compensation for shooting while sliding backwards, knowing your momentum going slightly away from the basket will have your usual arc come up short - even though he elevated nicely and wasn't really fading much.

 

[huskyharry]

SO...do you think he'll retire now?

Hope not...he still has a lot to offer and certainly seems like he enjoys playing.

 

[Scoe]

I think he will try to play 1-2 more years, despite how much Ray may down play the 3 point record he wants to maintain that record.