OT: Kobe retiring

[intlzncster]

I'll admit, I did not like Kobe at all, but I did love what most fans didn't like about him: his nasty attitude on the court. Too many nice guys out there in sports*. I like guys who 'want to rip out your heart and eat your children'.

*this doesn't refers to off the field stuff. Prefer good guys off the court.

 

[huskiesNhoos]

I'll admit, I did not like Kobe at all, but I did love what most fans didn't like about him: his nasty attitude on the court. Too many nice guys out there in sports*. I like guys who 'want to rip out your heart and eat your children'.

*this doesn't refers to off the field stuff. Prefer good guys off the court.

so what you're saying is you prefer a man on the streets, and a freak on the court?

sorry, couldn't help myself. I agree completely with it being less exciting when all the superstars are BFF's

 

[PcketknfNiels]

View attachment 11293
Ready or not... All these dudes are retired I feel old as hell. I had this issue

Kobe is the NBA version of The Undertaker in WWE. Last of a great 90's era, legendary and polarizing, both clearly beyond washed up at this point.



Both retiring in April 2016.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

LeBron is absolutely in the first group of players.

As a scorer, few were able to put more points on the board than Kobe. But as an all-around player he falls somewhere in that 12-15 range all time. Which is pretty freaking amazing, if you ask me. But some want to put him 2 behind Jordan...and that's not even close to accurate.

Why is Lebron in that first group? He only had a 3 year run of being a good (help) defender, he's always been an inconsistent 3-point shooter, and his team/individual postseason performance have always been pretty inconsistent and underwhelming. He was a physical freak in his prime as well as a great passer (still)


Also, nobody puts Kobe at 2 all-time. He probably is a top 10 player all-time though, MJ, Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem, then either Shaq/Lebron/Ocsar at the 10 spot. Gun to my head, I probably go with Shaq there. Dude could have been a top 2-3 all-timer if he had the maniacal work ethic most of the other greats did.

 

[tzznandrew]

Why is Lebron in that first group? He only had a 3 year run of being a good (help) defender, he's always been an inconsistent 3-point shooter, and his team/individual postseason performance have always been pretty inconsistent and underwhelming. He was a physical freak in his prime as well as a great passer (still)


Also, nobody puts Kobe at 2 all-time. He probably is a top 10 player all-time though, MJ, Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem, then either Shaq/Lebron/Ocsar at the 10 spot. Gun to my head, I probably go with Shaq there. Dude could have been a top 2-3 all-timer if he had the maniacal work ethic most of the other greats did.

I teach kids. So lots of them have--especially in his prime--made this claim.

LeBron is in that upper echelon because he does everything well, and is wildly efficient at doing so.

When you compare them in the same age range (19-31...their only overlapping years), LeBron's best years were better, and his overall performance was better. He had a higher TS% than Kobe (58.1 to 55.7), a higher PER (27.6 to 23.8), generated more overall wins (181.9 to 144), and had more offensive and defensive win shares in doing that. And, considering the bummy teams he had in the mid to late 2000s, was far more impressive with a weaker cast of characters than was Kobe.

Hell, even LeBron's traditional numbers compare are better across the board:

LeBron (19-31): 27.3 ppg, 7.2 rgp, 6.9 agp, 1.7 spg, 49.6% FG and 34.1% 3P
Kobe (19-31): 26.6 ppg, 5.6 rgp, 4.9 apg, 1.6 spg, 45.6% FG and 33.9% 3p

We can quibble on whether Kobe is Top 10 or not (I don't think so), but I don't think there's a convincing argument--eye test or numbers--that favor Kobe over LeBron.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

I teach kids. So lots of them have--especially in his prime--made this claim.

LeBron is in that upper echelon because he does everything well, and is wildly efficient at doing so.

When you compare them in the same age range (19-31...their only overlapping years), LeBron's best years were better, and his overall performance was better. He had a higher TS% than Kobe (58.1 to 55.7), a higher PER (27.6 to 23.8), generated more overall wins (181.9 to 144), and had more offensive and defensive win shares in doing that. And, considering the bummy teams he had in the mid to late 2000s, was far more impressive with a weaker cast of characters than was Kobe.

Hell, even LeBron's traditional numbers compare are better across the board:

LeBron (19-31): 27.3 ppg, 7.2 rgp, 6.9 agp, 1.7 spg, 49.6% FG and 34.1% 3P
Kobe (19-31): 26.6 ppg, 5.6 rgp, 4.9 apg, 1.6 spg, 45.6% FG and 33.9% 3p

We can quibble on whether Kobe is Top 10 or not (I don't think so), but I don't think there's a convincing argument--eye test or numbers--that favor Kobe over LeBron.

The years in which you're comparing them include Kobe's entire decline phase and pretty much only cover Lebron's prime, not exactly a fair comparison. If stats were the only thing that mattered, Wilt and Oscar would unanimously be considered the best 2 players ever.


Are you one of those guys that still thinks Peyton Manning is better than Tom Brady? This isn't fantasy sports we're talking about.

 

[tzznandrew]

The years in which you're comparing them include Kobe's entire decline phase and pretty much only cover Lebron's prime, not exactly a fair comparison. If stats were the only thing that mattered, Wilt and Oscar would unanimously be considered the best 2 players ever.


Are you one of those guys that still thinks Peyton Manning is better than Tom Brady? This isn't fantasy sports we're talking about.

I literally picked the ages that LeBron was in the league. That means it got his mediocre rookie year but not Kobe's. And I stopped when Kobe turned 31, winning a title, a Finals MVP, averaging 27 ppg. He also came in third in MVP voting. That was 2010. Hardly his decline phase. Hell, he had three more solid years after that, two with higher PERs.

I couldn't have been more fair.

Also, let's be clear, Wilt and Oscar Robertson are two of the best 10 players of all time. But if you go by the advanced stats I cited, they are near the top but not universally. Jordan, Kareem, and LeBron tend to, and even more so when you restrict it a bit to their primes.

Also, LeBron is better in the eye test.

Anyway, this is clearly something we're going to disagree on, but I just wanted to clarify that the main point (it included Kobe's entire decline phase was way off, in that it didn't include his decline at all), and that the stat argument you made is also not true.

 

[UConn990411]

There's absolutely no argument for Kobe over LeBron.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

I literally picked the ages that LeBron was in the league. That means it got his mediocre rookie year but not Kobe's. And I stopped when Kobe turned 31, winning a title, a Finals MVP, averaging 27 ppg. He also came in third in MVP voting. That was 2010. Hardly his decline phase. Hell, he had three more solid years after that, two with higher PERs.

I couldn't have been more fair.

Also, let's be clear, Wilt and Oscar Robertson are two of the best 10 players of all time. But if you go by the advanced stats I cited, they are near the top but not universally. Jordan, Kareem, and LeBron tend to, and even more so when you restrict it a bit to their primes.

Also, LeBron is better in the eye test.

Anyway, this is clearly something we're going to disagree on, but I just wanted to clarify that the main point (it included Kobe's entire decline phase was way off, in that it didn't include his decline at all), and that the stat argument you made is also not true.

And I'm sure you're aware that it also includes Kobe's age 35-37 years, which is why you "literally just picked the ages that Lebron was in the league".

Wilt is top 10, Oscar is questionable as a top 10 guy.

The "eye test" is beyond subjective, you clearly favor fantasy numbers over winning, I'm more willing to give up some efficiency in December regular season games against the Bucks for a guy who I won't have to be worried about sucking in June.

And just to be clear, you clearly just hopped on basketball reference and plugged in Lebron's age 19-31 seasons (current), as those are their overlapping years. Not sure why you're even attempting to misdirect otherwise.

 

[tzznandrew]

And I'm sure you're aware that it also includes Kobe's age 35-37 years, which is why you "literally just picked the ages that Lebron was in the league".

Wilt is top 10, Oscar is questionable as a top 10 guy.

The "eye test" is beyond subjective, you clearly favor fantasy numbers over winning, I'm more willing to give up some efficiency in December regular season games against the Bucks for a guy who I won't have to be worried about sucking in June.

And just to be clear, you clearly just hopped on basketball reference and plugged in Lebron's age 19-31 seasons (current), as those are their overlapping years. Not sure why you're even attempting to misdirect otherwise.

I only gave the stats 19-31. For both. So, yeah. Sorry, you're wrong:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#1998-2010-sum:per_game

Match them with the numbers I posted.

As for the rest, you can only be going by the eye test to pick Kobe over LeBron. Even the the post season, LeBron has been better. Watch Game 7 of 2010 and 2013 if you disagree there.

 

[mauconnfan]

What he didn't abuse a woman? Kobe and Greg Hardy shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

You're right he raped a girl in Colorado he didn't abuse her. WTF was I thinking?

 

[James]

You're right he raped a girl in Colorado he didn't abuse her. WTF was I thinking?

do you remember the details of that trial? accuser had multiple semen samples in her panties and was lying her ass off. I dont like kobe myself but don't think he is a rapist. just a cocky sob

 

[polycom]

You're right he raped a girl in Colorado he didn't abuse her. WTF was I thinking?

But he didn't rape a girl... However didn't realize you where in the room watching the entire thing unfold.

 

[mauconnfan]

But he didn't rape a girl... However didn't realize you where in the room watching the entire thing unfold.

My bad I agree shouldn't have used those words. But he got away with something for sure like Hardy as no one who is innocent pays. Thus these 2 being in the same sentence is not an issue.

 

[Hoophound]

My bad I agree shouldn't have used those words. But he got away with something for sure like Hardy as no one who is innocent pays. Thus these 2 being in the same sentence is not an issue.

That's not true. People with money plea/pay all the time. It ends the bad publicity and eliminates risk of false conviction or false judgement in a civil suit.

I think you have to really want to dislike Kobe to think he raped that girl after you read the whole story. His credibility was far stronger given the facts.

 

[polycom]

That's not true. People with money plea/pay all the time. It ends the bad publicity and eliminates risk of false conviction or false judgement in a civil suit.

I think you have to really want to dislike Kobe to think he raped that girl after you read the whole story. His credibility was far stronger given the facts.

I can't speak for Mauconnfan but I'll try to anyway...He did get away with something...he got away with cheating on his wife...However if he wants to imply Kobe committed some criminal act. We all can agree to disagree.

 

[Hoophound]

I think Kobe Bryant is actually underrated. People say Kobe wasn't a top 10 NBA player but underestimate the power of confidence, will and athleticism. If you give me totally equivalent teams and add one guard/swingman legend to each squad and have them compete, I'll take Kobe's team over almost all of them to win. Jordan and maybe Magic get the nod over him. Kobe would squash the rest.

His two titles without Shaq are more or equal too what so many supposedly better players had. He has a big ego, he has a mean streak, but he's a 5 time champ and he didn't need Shaq to get two of them. Further, Shaq was in the league forever and he only won one without Kobe and that was in Wade's best year in terms of being a complete player.

 

[mauconnfan]

Michael obviously, Magic and Larry most likely but in the last 30 years no others have been as good. Whether people like it or not all of the titles discussed come with many good players and coaches, not just these guys. I get it's easier with Shaq but with the other teams they won with there were either great players or career years involved with others.

Kobe definitely put himself into an argument for the Top 10 with his game.

 

[Kitaman]

My bad I agree shouldn't have used those words. But he got away with something for sure like Hardy as no one who is innocent pays. Thus these 2 being in the same sentence is not an issue.

Mau you know that being a superstar presents all types of temptations (i.e. women) thrown at you constantly. Ewing, Wilkins, Jordan and many others succomb to the temptations as well as we Joe Public.

I think whatever happened in Colorado Kobe learned from it, and scared the crap out of him, where he hasn't done it (or got caught again). That can be forgivable if not repeated. Women simply have a lot of power of men.

My wife used to tell me that Adam had a choice to follow God (not bite the apple) or follow the women (bite the apple). That story depicts the power of women over men and yes they are that powerful.

Just saying pro athletes are always putting themselves in situations to be set up, its not that they are stupid, its that they don't fully realize the power women have. Lastly some women are taught (or realize) that they are born with a million dollars between their legs, consequently pro-players are a nice hunting ground. Babies are the jackpot and 'sadly' their are a lot of them out them.

 

[tzznandrew]

Michael obviously, Magic and Larry most likely but in the last 30 years no others have been as good. Whether people like it or not all of the titles discussed come with many good players and coaches, not just these guys. I get it's easier with Shaq but with the other teams they won with there were either great players or career years involved with others.

Kobe definitely put himself into an argument for the Top 10 with his game.

In the last 30 years, Duncan and LeBron are better, arguably Shaq and Olajuwon as well.

Again, that's not really a diss on Kobe. He was a very good player, one of the 10-15 best. I lean towards the 15 with @champs99and04 in putting him closer to 15, but that's still pretty amazing.

 

[gwhuskyfan]

Went and saw Kobe play in DC last night. Looked like vintage Kobe, 31 pts knocking down clutch shots in the 4th quarter. Even had 2 assists...

 

[intlzncster]

Michael obviously, Magic and Larry most likely but in the last 30 years no others have been as good. Whether people like it or not all of the titles discussed come with many good players and coaches, not just these guys. I get it's easier with Shaq but with the other teams they won with there were either great players or career years involved with others.

Kobe definitely put himself into an argument for the Top 10 with his game.

I think Kobe Bryant is actually underrated. People say Kobe wasn't a top 10 NBA player but underestimate the power of confidence, will and athleticism. If you give me totally equivalent teams and add one guard/swingman legend to each squad and have them compete, I'll take Kobe's team over almost all of them to win. Jordan and maybe Magic get the nod over him. Kobe would squash the rest.

Duncan is definitely better than Kobe. I personally think HE is underrated. Easily the best PF of all time.

I'd take peak Lebron on my team over peak Kobe. I dislike Lebron as a person more than Kobe, but that's just personal preference.

EDIT: I see tzz already said the same thing. Redundant post.

 

[intlzncster]

Went and saw Kobe play in DC last night. Looked like vintage Kobe, 31 pts knocking down clutch shots in the 4th quarter. Even had 2 assists...

That made me chuckle.

 

[Doginaus]

no disrespect to Kobe or his talent, but he should have done it last year.

 

[tzznandrew]

no disrespect to Kobe or his talent, but he should have done it last year.

He hasn't been good in a few years, but in his defense I'm not sure who would want to go out on an injury--two straight years of injury. And he was still a good player before the first of them, so I don't blame him for thinking he could come back from it.