Olympic women's basketball tournament (5x5) (SPOILER ALERT)

[UConnCat]

The US team has plenty of problems, but it's hard to extrapolate too much from the Nigeria game because Nigeria is very unlike any other team. One might describe their playing style as frantic on acid. I give them kudos for their high energy swarming, and for taking advantage for the extreme amount of physical contact that apparently is allowable in FIBA play.

I'll be interested to see how Nigeria does against Japan and France. I personally would be surprised if they win either game, but who knows.

The term “helter-skelter” came to mind when thinking about Nigeria’s style. The US team was definitely bothered by the Nigerian defenders. If Nigeria plays with the same amount of energy as they brought to the US game they could cause problems for France.

As for the US, I’m not liking what I’m seeing. Right now, I just hope they look better against Japan.

 

[Kaizen]

 

[BBallF]

She and Wilson were MVPs of last night's game. The incredible thing is that I don't remember her scoring. She didn't have to. She controlled the game with her passing and floor game.

 

[BBallF]

The term “helter-skelter” came to mind when thinking about Nigeria’s style. The US team was definitely bothered by the Nigerian defenders. If Nigeria plays with the same amount of energy as they brought to the US game they could cause problems for France.

As for the US, I’m not liking what I’m seeing. Right now, I just hope they look better against Japan.

How can anyone like it? We have 4 guards who look to score first, one point guard who is 41 years old but still the GOAT, and a GOAT at the 2 who is just now returning from injury. We have bigs that have hands problems, that are forced to make passes, usually bad because the guards don't, we don't hustle for the ball until the 3rd quarter, and our bench gave up a 20 point lead. The 2016 team beats this team by 20.

 

[BBallF]

The second quarter was the best they played. D was better and they moved the ball. But it’s hard to have anything work smooth with the level of physicality they allow now. It’s off the charts. I’m not happy it’s evolved to this. Instead of seeing team work, nice plays and talented players it’s like a bunch of animals scratching and clawing for the ball. Just not satisfying to watch.

It seemed like for every defensive rebound we got there was a foul on Nigeria that wasn't called. They obviously allow a lot more contact on the hands and body. It was probably what Nika was talking about when she said she had to get used to the American referees. It doesn't suit us well.

 

[eebmg]

It seemed like for every defensive rebound we got there was a foul on Nigeria that wasn't called. They obviously allow a lot more contact on the hands and body. It was probably what Nika was talking about when she said she had to get used to the American referees. It doesn't suit us well.

I think of all our Posts, Fowles (and Wilson) is best suited to handle the mauling. Her minutes should go up while BG should go down.

 

[EricLA]

It will be interesting to see how this team develops as the Olympics move forward. Nigeria does play a very difficult style that is very physical and they are quick and aggressive. But this is the same USA team who beat Nigeria by 30 not long ago in the exhibition game in Vegas.

We outscored them 27-12 in Q2 and 28-18 in Q3. I couldn't find the +/-, and the starters were in most of Q1 when Nigeria caused all kinds of problems. It took the team a while to settle down.

To Nigeria's credit, the fought hard the entire game. For all the applause for the post players, the number of O-boards the Nigerians got in Q4 was mystifying. While we out-rebounded them, they had more O-bards than USA - 19-16.

Collier looked lost. Fowles and Charles did some good things, but also were a sloppy mess at times. The only guard who played well not named Dee or Sue was Jewell, and she was a pest on defense too. Sure Chelsea Gray had a few nice "contested shots", but as for "running the offense", she was not good at all. Poor entry passes, mostly poor decisions with the ball (except for scoring on a few shots), and not a good back up for Sue at this point.

Not sure what Diggins did, but she didn't seem to be in the game long enough to impact anything. Against a "weaker team" like Nigeria, Collier and Atkins barely got any playing time so it was really 10 deep, and given how Gray and Diggins did, it was just about 8 deep.

The 2016 team was actually guard heavy with Bird, Dee, Whalen as Sue's backup, Angel, Siemone, and then Maya and Elena as well. Angel was tenacious on defense, Siemone had the most wicked midrange maybe ever, and EDD was, well, EDD.

I'm not sure this team necessarily has the "wrong" players as guards, but the lack of experience and inability to fully grasp the TEAM concept, Gray, Diggins, Collier and Atkins simply not bring anything close to what Whalen, Siemone, and Angel did back in 2016. It also doens't help that this team has so many new members who have not had the time to practice with each other.

And by the way, not only were Sue and Dee by far the best guards on team USA (followed by Jewell for honorable mention), but their defense was not a liability one single bit. They might be a step slower than their younger counterparts against a super quick Nigerian team, but let's just put the comments about defensive liabilities to rest once and for all. Anyone who watched the game couldn't have any complaints about Sue/Dee on the defensive end.

I really think Dawn has a ton of work to do. The passing from Gray and Diggins was substandard. It was not helped by butterfingered post players, but even when they tried to pass the ball back out, the guards would often stop moving, or move too late, so there was not an open player to get the ball to.

This team can still win it all of course. They won with great games from Sue and A'ja, good games from BG, Dee and Jewell, and a substandard shooting game from Stewie. Tina and Sylvia had some very good moments, but as i said before, also some terribly sloppy and messy moments. I hope they get it together.

Last comment. I don't mean to sound all "know it all-y" - obviously all just IMHO, and I'm not even one of the smarter hoops minds on the BY. So just my $.02.

 

[UConnCat]

How can anyone like it? We have 4 guards who look to score first, one point guard who is 41 years old but still the GOAT, and a GOAT at the 2 who is just now returning from injury. We have bigs that have hands problems, that are forced to make passes, usually bad because the guards don't, we don't hustle for the ball until the 3rd quarter, and our bench gave up a 20 point lead. The 2016 team beats this team by 20.

Not to mention Stewie (some call the best player in the world) playing out of position. Ask Dawn and she'll tell you Stewie on the wing is better than any other wing on the team (plus it allows A'ja to start at her natural position), but Stewie struggled a bit last night finding a rhythm. She is expected to space the floor in half court sets so Griner and Wilson have room to operate. Stewie obviously can shoot and make 3s but there's a lot more to her game that is being sacrificed. We'll see what the team does to get her going against Japan.

 

[BBallF]

I think of all our Posts, Fowles (and Wilson) is best suited to handle the mauling. Her minutes should go up while BG should go down.

I agree. BG is a worrisome passer also. One of the reasons Wilson is so hard to stop is because she is very fluid and moves well without the ball. She picks up a lot of shooting fouls because of it and gets rid of the ball right away when she rebounds defensively.

 

[BBallF]

It will be interesting to see how this team develops as the Olympics move forward. Nigeria does play a very difficult style that is very physical and they are quick and aggressive. But this is the same USA team who beat Nigeria by 30 not long ago in the exhibition game in Vegas.

We outscored them 27-12 in Q2 and 28-18 in Q3. I couldn't find the +/-, and the starters were in most of Q1 when Nigeria caused all kinds of problems. It took the team a while to settle down.

To Nigeria's credit, the fought hard the entire game. For all the applause for the post players, the number of O-boards the Nigerians got in Q4 was mystifying. While we out-rebounded them, they had more O-bards than USA - 19-16.

Collier looked lost. Fowles and Charles did some good things, but also were a sloppy mess at times. The only guard who played well not named Dee or Sue was Jewell, and she was a pest on defense too. Sure Chelsea Gray had a few nice "contested shots", but as for "running the offense", she was not good at all. Poor entry passes, mostly poor decisions with the ball (except for scoring on a few shots), and not a good back up for Sue at this point.

Not sure what Diggins did, but she didn't seem to be in the game long enough to impact anything. Against a "weaker team" like Nigeria, Collier and Atkins barely got any playing time so it was really 10 deep, and given how Gray and Diggins did, it was just about 8 deep.

The 2016 team was actually guard heavy with Bird, Dee, Whalen as Sue's backup, Angel, Siemone, and then Maya and Elena as well. Angel was tenacious on defense, Siemone had the most wicked midrange maybe ever, and EDD was, well, EDD.

I'm not sure this team necessarily has the "wrong" players as guards, but the lack of experience and inability to fully grasp the TEAM concept, Gray, Diggins, Collier and Atkins simply not bring anything close to what Whalen, Siemone, and Angel did back in 2016. It also doens't help that this team has so many new members who have not had the time to practice with each other.

And by the way, not only were Sue and Dee by far the best guards on team USA (followed by Jewell for honorable mention), but their defense was not a liability one single bit. They might be a step slower than their younger counterparts against a super quick Nigerian team, but let's just put the comments about defensive liabilities to rest once and for all. Anyone who watched the game couldn't have any complaints about Sue/Dee on the defensive end.

I really think Dawn has a ton of work to do. The passing from Gray and Diggins was substandard. It was not helped by butterfingered post players, but even when they tried to pass the ball back out, the guards would often stop moving, or move too late, so there was not an open player to get the ball to.

This team can still win it all of course. They won with great games from Sue and A'ja, good games from BG, Dee and Jewell, and a substandard shooting game from Stewie. Tina and Sylvia had some very good moments, but as i said before, also some terribly sloppy and messy moments. I hope they get it together.

Last comment. I don't mean to sound all "know it all-y" - obviously all just IMHO, and I'm not even one of the smarter hoops minds on the BY. So just my $.02.

It will be interesting to see how this team develops as the Olympics move forward. Nigeria does play a very difficult style that is very physical and they are quick and aggressive. But this is the same USA team who beat Nigeria by 30 not long ago in the exhibition game in Vegas.

We outscored them 27-12 in Q2 and 28-18 in Q3. I couldn't find the +/-, and the starters were in most of Q1 when Nigeria caused all kinds of problems. It took the team a while to settle down.

To Nigeria's credit, the fought hard the entire game. For all the applause for the post players, the number of O-boards the Nigerians got in Q4 was mystifying. While we out-rebounded them, they had more O-bards than USA - 19-16.

Collier looked lost. Fowles and Charles did some good things, but also were a sloppy mess at times. The only guard who played well not named Dee or Sue was Jewell, and she was a pest on defense too. Sure Chelsea Gray had a few nice "contested shots", but as for "running the offense", she was not good at all. Poor entry passes, mostly poor decisions with the ball (except for scoring on a few shots), and not a good back up for Sue at this point.

Not sure what Diggins did, but she didn't seem to be in the game long enough to impact anything. Against a "weaker team" like Nigeria, Collier and Atkins barely got any playing time so it was really 10 deep, and given how Gray and Diggins did, it was just about 8 deep.

The 2016 team was actually guard heavy with Bird, Dee, Whalen as Sue's backup, Angel, Siemone, and then Maya and Elena as well. Angel was tenacious on defense, Siemone had the most wicked midrange maybe ever, and EDD was, well, EDD.

I'm not sure this team necessarily has the "wrong" players as guards, but the lack of experience and inability to fully grasp the TEAM concept, Gray, Diggins, Collier and Atkins simply not bring anything close to what Whalen, Siemone, and Angel did back in 2016. It also doens't help that this team has so many new members who have not had the time to practice with each other.

And by the way, not only were Sue and Dee by far the best guards on team USA (followed by Jewell for honorable mention), but their defense was not a liability one single bit. They might be a step slower than their younger counterparts against a super quick Nigerian team, but let's just put the comments about defensive liabilities to rest once and for all. Anyone who watched the game couldn't have any complaints about Sue/Dee on the defensive end.

I really think Dawn has a ton of work to do. The passing from Gray and Diggins was substandard. It was not helped by butterfingered post players, but even when they tried to pass the ball back out, the guards would often stop moving, or move too late, so there was not an open player to get the ball to.

This team can still win it all of course. They won with great games from Sue and A'ja, good games from BG, Dee and Jewell, and a substandard shooting game from Stewie. Tina and Sylvia had some very good moments, but as i said before, also some terribly sloppy and messy moments. I hope they get it together.

Last comment. I don't mean to sound all "know it all-y" - obviously all just IMHO, and I'm not even one of the smarter hoops minds on the BY. So just my $.02.

It's not "know it all-y" when you see what we are all seeing and are frustrated by it. I said earlier that the 2016 team beats this team by 20 points. I agree with everything you said except that I think the guards are wrong. If you look you will see that for each corresponding big there is a corresponding guard from the same team. I presume the theory is that the guard was used to getting the ball to their big. That hasn't happened and probably won't. You have 4 guards who are incapable of running the point Gold medal style. Who picked them?

 

[MilfordHusky]

Cat's point about Stewie playing out of position is a good one. I hope she can get untracked. I'd like to see Dee be even more aggressive. A'ja was successful in taking contact and scoring plus getting to the FT line--her career M.O. It's hard to tell what a foul is. Nika Muhl was right--the American game calls most contact, whereas borderline muggings last night were not called. The U.S. needs to adjust to that. I think the worst stat was 25 turnovers. We passed poorly and weren't strong with the ball. We need to improve, especially the newcomers. In Rio, Sue missed the semi-finals against France, and we struggled. Last night, we needed her record 13 assists to win. She is the key to this team right now.

 

[UcMiami]

I just didn't see any flow on offense or defense for most of the game - no help defense, bad rotation, slow or no switching and seeming unawareness of where and what others were doing.

It felt like the team on offense were completely lost - few and bad ball screens, off ball screens seemed non-existent. Often two people moving into the same position at the same time.

To me the biggest issue is coaching - both sides of the ball. When this level of players both talent and experience-wise look lost the coach is screwing up. Either trying too hard to complicate things, or trying to impose something that doesn't fit the players.

(Except for a few minutes Tina Charles looked lost, slow, and out of sync, which is hard to believe given the kind of WNBA season she has been having.)

I remember the first days of Geno coaching the NT when either DT or Sue told him 'you aren't teaching us how to play, just tell us what to do - we got the rest of it down.' or words to that effect.

 

[UConnCat]

I remember the first days of Geno coaching the NT when either DT or Sue told him 'you aren't teaching us how to play, just tell us what to do - we got the rest of it down.' or words to that effect.

It was on a Zach Lowe podcast where Geno told the story of Dee telling him in 2010 that the WNBA players weren't going to get the read and react offense with different options. Dee told him that the players needed set plays, told where to go and what to do and that the plays needed a name. That's it.

 

[UConn990411]

Cat's point about Stewie playing out of position is a good one. I hope she can get untracked. I'd like to see Dee be even more aggressive. A'ja was successful in taking contact and scoring plus getting to the FT line--her career M.O. It's hard to tell what a foul is. Nika Muhl was right--the American game calls most contact, whereas borderline muggings last night were not called. The U.S. needs to adjust to that. I think the worst stat was 25 turnovers. We passed poorly and weren't strong with the ball. We need to improve, especially the newcomers. In Rio, Sue missed the semi-finals against France, and we struggled. Last night, we needed her record 13 assists to win. She is the key to this team right now.

This is not a well-constructed roster to begin with, but Staley’s lineup decisions are nonsensical. She’s currently playing the best player in the world out of position.

 

[BBallF]

This is not a well-constructed roster to begin with, but Staley’s lineup decisions are nonsensical. She’s currently playing the best player in the world out of position.

That's also because there is no real 3 position player on this team. Pheesa is supposed to be a swing but she is lost out there and out of her depth. You either run a set with 3 bigs with Stewie at the 3 or a 3 guard offense with a 2 guard at the 3. It's ridiculous. If we win the Gold, Sue and D have to control the team, not Dawn.

 

[oldhusky]

That's also because there is no real 3 position player on this team. Pheesa is supposed to be a swing but she is lost out there and out of her depth. You either run a set with 3 bigs with Stewie at the 3 or a 3 guard offense with a 2 guard at the 3. It's ridiculous. If we win the Gold, Sue and D have to control the team, not Dawn.

The questionable roster construction with no real natural SF's has left Dawn with choices exactly as you mentioned. If you are going to play 3 bigs, the obvious choice to slide over to the 3 is Stewie. She has the most perimeter skills, otherwise you are playing three guards with the closest to a big guard perhaps being Atkins, but she is too far down the depth chart.

So with the roster she has, I think Stewie at the 3 might be the best among less than favorable choices. First I think our bigs relatively speaking are much better than our guards, and the two natural 4's, Stewart and Wilson might be the two best players on the team, and it is a shame to have one of them sitting for major portions of the game.

For this tournament it is what it is, but next time we need at least one great natural player at each position.

 

[eebmg]

The questionable roster construction with no real natural SF's has left Dawn with choices exactly as you mentioned. If you are going to play 3 bigs, the obvious choice to slide over to the 3 is Stewie. She has the most perimeter skills, otherwise you are playing three guards with the closest to a big guard perhaps being Atkins, but she is too far down the depth chart.

So with the roster she has, I think Stewie at the 3 might be the best among less than favorable choices. First I think our bigs relatively speaking are much better than our guards, and the two natural 4's, Stewart and Wilson might be the two best players on the team, and it is a shame to have one of them sitting for major portions of the game.

For this tournament it is what it is, but next time we need at least one great natural player at each position.

Next cycle, I would like to get pure PG Vandersloot and much needed 3pt killer Quiqley with Jewell as the three main quard rotation

 

[UConnCat]

Next cycle, I would like to get pure PG Vandersloot and much needed 3pt killer Quiqley with Jewell as the three main quard rotation

Vandersloot is ineligible, Quigley is . . . This is a joke, right?

 

[eebmg]

Vandersloot is ineligible, Quigley is . . . This is a joke, right?

Yes, my attempt at humor thinking we might have room for a real 3pt threat who actually moves without the ball.

Why is Vandersloot ineligible?

 

[UConnCat]

Yes, my attempt at humor thinking we might have room for a real 3pt threat who actually moves without the ball.

Why is Vandersloot ineligible?

A shooter who would be 36 years old in her first ever USA Basketball game (next World Cup) or a 38-year old first time Olympian? I don't think so.

Vandersloot chose to become a Hungarian citizen and has played for Hungary's WNT in a FIBA event. She did that for financial reasons as Hungary is no threat to make a World Cup or Olympics.

 

[eebmg]

A shooter who would be 36 years old in her first ever USA Basketball game (next World Cup) or a 38-year old first time Olympian? I don't think so.

Vandersloot chose to become a Hungarian citizen and has played for Hungary's WNT in a FIBA event. She did that for financial reasons as Hungary is no threat to make a World Cup or Olympics.

Yes, I did not take into account her age. Good point.

Thanks on the Vandersloot background. That is a shame.

 

[Urshurak]

The thing that stood out to my wife and I (amongst other things) was the physicality. Unreal. Throw in some pocket knives and we could redo West Side Story on an international stage. Dee Kanter would be on her third whistle by half time.

 

[clbabson]

Dee Kanter would be on her third whistle by half time.

LOL - well played!

 

[Bald Husky]

Sabrina and Paige would be pretty impressive, although they might save Paige for 2028 at which time Azzi would be ready.

 

[BBallF]

The questionable roster construction with no real natural SF's has left Dawn with choices exactly as you mentioned. If you are going to play 3 bigs, the obvious choice to slide over to the 3 is Stewie. She has the most perimeter skills, otherwise you are playing three guards with the closest to a big guard perhaps being Atkins, but she is too far down the depth chart.

So with the roster she has, I think Stewie at the 3 might be the best among less than favorable choices. First I think our bigs relatively speaking are much better than our guards, and the two natural 4's, Stewart and Wilson might be the two best players on the team, and it is a shame to have one of them sitting for major portions of the game.

For this tournament it is what it is, but next time we need at least one great natural player at each position.

To your point, such as Sue, D, Maya, and Griner in 2016 with Charles starting at the 4, Augustus coming in at the 3 and Della Donne just coming in as a multiple position player. You have at least 4 starters at their natural positions and arguably the best in the world (Griner or Fowles was a tough call as best in 2016). Now, 3 natural positions, 4 if you count Wilson at the 4, and no 3s. That is a scoring position on this team with Bird and DT throwing fast break passes but it is now the shutdown position for the world's best forward.

I don't get the absent 3 on the team or the no back up pure point guard or the lack of at least 2 great 3 point shooters. I don't care about percentages, I care about getting the shots off, moving to do so, and making them in crunch time. Comparing Atkins, Collier, Gray, Loyd, and Skylar to their counterparts in 2016 is a real drop down. To win this, we will have to rely on a 41 year old point guard and a 39 year old 2 guard to control the team and get it done.