It's come down to this for the Lady Vols

[UcMiami]

What schools? I'm not disagreeing with you at all - I think it's terrific, I just honestly don't know what schools have devoted serious resources... thanks!

It is hard to get exact numbers and the list vary significantly based on what numbers get included, but ...
Generally the top half at least of every P5 conference has guaranteed compensation above $500K and bonus structures that add another $250K or more for various successes. It is difficult to impossible to get numbers for private schools and hard to work out guarantees. No idea about mid-major's but one suspects Bruno for example is being well compensated as well. And of course Geno is reported to be top of the heap at $2+M.

 

[RadyLady]

We are obsessed with Tennessee.

schadenfreude

 

[UcMiami]

Is this the reason why Japanese Companies favor Tennessee?

FOREIGN INVESTMENT IN TENNESSEE
• 1. Japan, $15.7 billion and 41,262 employees

• 2. Germany, $3.4 billion and 14,933 employees

• 3. Canada, $1.8 billion and 9,795 employees

• 4. United Kingdom, $1.4 billion and 12,987 employees

• 5. Korea, $913 million and 1,270 employees

Source: Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...ompanies-lead-investment-in-tennessee/132141/

It's called 'Right to Work' laws. (A favorite of the car industry and specifically the Japanese car industry.)

 

[trb123]

Ms Cornelius is the moderator of The Summitt message board. For years she boasted of her "insider" relationship with Pat, attendance at practices, etc. She often shook down Summitteers for donations to defray her travel expenses to away games -- until she instituted a membership fee to posters and lurkers alike.

More to the point, she never curtailed the continuous stream of vile and repulsive posts, especially about Geno and Diana. I will go to my grave believing that MC was the author of the 37-page diatribe. If Tennessee is The Evil Empire, Ms Cornelius is The Princess of Darkness.

She deserves a blighted Lady Vol basketball program.

 

[cbraarj]

The 2007&08 Championships came at a time when the Lady Vols had CP in uniform as well as a strong supporting cast.

I know that but I doubt the accusations about violations was Pat having paranoia from Alzheimers like jerlis suggested.It was about Connecticut signing Maya and she knew it would be a long 4 years because Uconn had Maya and Tenn didnt.If she didnt coach those 2 years IMO the vols dont win both titles.How about a Foi inquiry so the truth comes out and we can drop this once and for all.They are public universities that use public money.By the way both coaches are acting like babies about this issue because it should have been addressed right after the NCAA finished its investigation.

 

[CocoHusky]

I know that but I doubt the accusations about violations was Pat having paranoia from Alzheimers like jerlis suggested.It was about Connecticut signing Maya and she knew it would be a long 4 years because Uconn had Maya and Tenn didnt.If she didnt coach those 2 years IMO the vols dont win both titles.How about a Foi inquiry so the truth comes out and we can drop this once and for all.They are public universities that use public money.By the way both coaches are acting like babies about this issue because it should have been addressed right after the NCAA finished its investigation.

I'm not sure an official inquiry would help us determine when Pat's illness started. It was definitely mainly about Maya but EDD and Caroline Doty were also included in the recruiting battles. When someone tries to destroy your program you have a right to respond as you feel appropriate IMO- even if that means being a baby-Which I disagree with you on.

 

[cbraarj]

I'm not sure an official inquiry would help us determine when Pat's illness started. It was definitely mainly about Maya but EDD and Caroline Doty were also included in the recruiting battles. When someone tries to destroy your program you have a right to respond as you feel appropriate IMO- even if that means being a baby-Which I disagree with you on.

The inquiry would just be about the complaints to the NCAA from Tenn. and the response about the complaints to the NCAA from Connecticut.Sorry but the coaches are setting a bad example to impressionable young women on how to hold a grudge.It should have been a non issue after the NCAA ruled.Fight out on the court and leave it there after the game.

 

[HoopsFan21]

The inquiry would just be about the complaints to the NCAA from Tenn. and the response about the complaints to the NCAA from Connecticut.Sorry but the coaches are setting a bad example to impressionable young women on how to hold a grudge.It should have been a non issue after the NCAA ruled.Fight out on the court and leave it there after the game.

I disagree. I doubt any of the players on either team have given the old rivalry one second of thought. It was a decade ago.

 

[RedStickHusky]

Yeah, I've heard it just a bit differently: "Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" Must be a regional difference, I guess.

two different sayings altogether... one is a challenge to someone claiming to speak for a group when they are really speaking for themselves, the other is sort of an old Mae West thing.. rife with innuendo.

 

[UcMiami]

The inquiry would just be about the complaints to the NCAA from Tenn. and the response about the complaints to the NCAA from Connecticut.Sorry but the coaches are setting a bad example to impressionable young women on how to hold a grudge.It should have been a non issue after the NCAA ruled.Fight out on the court and leave it there after the game.

It was not just the 'coaches' but the reputation of the program and by inference the school - the NCAA typically does not sanction coaches but schools. And the complaint was not just filed with the NCAA but also repeatedly brought up in the media and answered by a 'snarky' 'I am too much of a lady to elaborate, but Geno knows what he did. Ask him'. Whatever the reason behind the initial mostly fantastical complaints (really - taking pages of boneyard posts as evidence, or accusing someone playing a game in Russia of doing something in Atlanta on the same day!) and there was certainly after the fact speculation that it might have been a early symptom of the disease Pat was stricken with, the accusations were real and nasty not just to uconn and the coaches but to Maya and her mother. In that situation, many might seek some form of 'revenge', others just write whatever entity was involved off. They do not pick up the phone, and they don't move one step towards a rapprochement without first an apology.
For Uconn and the coaches and the Uconn players there has been no down side. For women's basketball, there has probably been an upside in expanding the range of meaningful games - ND/Uconn, ND/Baylor/Uconn, Uconn/SC, Duke/ND, SC/TN have all become 'stories' being promoted when before it was mostly just when does the uconn/tn game happen this year. For TN, who has yet to play in a final four or be a real challenger for an NC since, maybe there has been a little down side - but I suspect it has more to do with a dated system and an unwillingness to modernize than anything else - chance are that if we had met in the intervening years it would have been an epic smack down - not something that would have helped TN's cause much either.

 

[CocoHusky]

I disagree. I doubt any of the players on either team have given the old rivalry one second of thought. It was a decade ago.

I disagree with your disagreement. Crystal Dangerfield was recently quoted as saying that she grew up a TN fan and watched & rooted for TN during the rivalry but became a UCONN fan when UCONN got the upper hand. We are only talking about 8 years ago which would have made crystal about 10. Pat was also in on Diamonds And Mercedes initial recruitment and Pat's last recruiting class only graduated in 2015.

 

[HoopsFan21]

I disagree with your disagreement. Crystal Dangerfield was recently quoted as saying that she grew up a TN fan and watched & rooted for TN during the rivalry but became a UCONN fan when UCONN got the upper hand. We are only talking about 8 years ago which would have made crystal about 10. Pat was also in on Diamonds And Mercedes initial recruitment and Pat's last recruiting class only graduated in 2015.

In my defense, I did say players on either team of which Dangerfield is not. Do you really think Stewie thinks about playing Tennessee? Do you think DeShields cares that they don't get to play UConn? I doubt either player gives it any thought.

 

[billnaples]

First hand experience with dementia though not Alzheimer's. I will suggest that the early signs are easy to miss. People who see someone every day are I think less likely to see some of the clues. So I will neither agree or disagree that the disease may have influenced TN to file the original complaints with the NCAA. The issues I had then as now was the cave in at the AD office in Knoxville as well as at the SEC head office. Was the action taken because TN lost the recruiting war for Moore? Maybe. There is a back story that some recruiting was alleged suggestions that sexual orientation could influence some decisions. Special language was used to hide the pitch. If the recruit was on the edge they were supposedly told to the effect that the other school might not have the same "family values" of the recruit. I can honestly say I have never thought in over 20 years of following UConn about the preferences of any of the players or coaches. Could they play defense, make some baskets, play team ball were questions I wanted to hear the answers about, Maybe that's the topic that Summit could not bring herself to raise. But IIRC the complaints TN//SEC filed never mentioned anything about that. Instead they went after players who were 10000 miles away at the time they were doing illegal things on behalf of UConn and so on. A stupid free and open to the public at the time tour of ESPN was the only proven "violation" that went against Geno and UConn. And BTW Vanderbilt earns your scorn as well, they were the complainer about Mo'ne Davis and that phone call. The NCAA had to make up a new rule to find UConn guily of something. And yet UNC still goes unpunished.

 

[cabbie191]

I once came across this quote: "Pride is a cold, stormy, barren mountain".

It seems to me that this has played out in spades at Rocky Top. Whether or not her illness was a contributing factor, it was Pat's pride, and the oversized pride of folks like Cornelius that abetted her, that played a role in the decline of the Tennessee program.

I believe that refusing to continue the series with Connecticut has contributed to their program becoming stagnated. First, as has been oft mentioned on the BY, the game has evolved over time, and much of that evolution results from Geno and staff's coaching brilliance. Until South Carolina's recent rise, they still dominated the SEC even though they didn't do well in the NCAA's - gives a false sense of strength. Had they kept the series going, and assuming they had lost, it is likely that Pat and Holly would eventually realize that they needed new offensive schemes - that the old way of relying on a dominant big to grab all those offensive rebounds just wasn't good enough anymore.

Second, top notch recruits thrive on challenges. They want to play the best their sport has to offer. For several years, that best = UConn. I have no proof but I would think that keeping UConn off their schedule has had some impact (admittedly minor) on some prospects opting for other schools. I recognize that, 2016 recruiting bust aside, they have still been getting quality players. But they are missing out generally on their really top choices. Even if current recruits don't know much about the feud, and are even perhaps ignorant of the intense rivalry from before, they most certainly realize that Tennessee is now refusing the play the best.

 

[GiladKatzDeli]

This is setting up perfectly for Warlick to retire and Tyler Summitt to take over..

 

[CocoHusky]

In my defense, I did say players on either team of which Dangerfield is not. Do you really think Stewie thinks about playing Tennessee? Do you think DeShields cares that they don't get to play UConn? I doubt either player gives it any thought.

A better example would be Morgan. I'll give you two guesses where Morgan would have gone to school if she did not go to UCONN-the first one doesn't count. The 2014 Lady Vols roster had two player who were high school teammates of Morgan- Ariel Massengale & Nia Moore. Massengale was to be Pat's savior and "allegedly" went to Lady Vols because she was promised a starting position. Nia Moore is still on the Lady Vols roster and while I'm sure Morgan doesn't think about playing TN everyday she might think it nice to match up against former HS teammates. Small world ?

 

[msf22b]

In my defense, I did say players on either team of which Dangerfield is not. Do you really think Stewie thinks about playing Tennessee? Do you think DeShields cares that they don't get to play UConn? I doubt either player gives it any thought.

wrong, in my view

 

[stamfordhusky]

It is hard to get exact numbers and the list vary significantly based on what numbers get included, but ...
Generally the top half at least of every P5 conference has guaranteed compensation above $500K and bonus structures that add another $250K or more for various successes. It is difficult to impossible to get numbers for private schools and hard to work out guarantees. No idea about mid-major's but one suspects Bruno for example is being well compensated as well. And of course Geno is reported to be top of the heap at $2+M.

Bruno a year ago received $428K in base compensation and total compensation of $521K including benefits, retirement contributions, bonus, etc. At Villanova, Harry Parretta is at best making half of that, maybe $250K all in.

As for mid-majors, here are numbers for two of the best known and longest tenured: (a) Brian Giorgis (Marist) - $175K base, total of $237K including everything; (b) Bill Gibbons (Holy Cross) - $180K base, $227K everything. The majority of women's coaches in the MAAC, the Patriot League, etc are making less than $125K in base salary - many well below that number. Giorgis and Gibbons are outliers.

 

[cabbie191]

This is setting up perfectly for Warlick to retire and Tyler Summitt to take over..

I'd be really surprised if UT would hire Summitt if Warlick leaves in the next year or two, mainly because of Tyler's age and current amount of experience. Granted that La Tech has improved its record since he took over, but not by much. The two years before him they were slightly below .500, and during his tenure they are slightly above .500, including 10-9 this year. I think he needs a few more years at La Tech to show how good a coach he might be.

Moreover, given the disaster Holly has been in the eyes of some, would Tennessee be inclined to pick another apple from the same Pat tree?

 

[Kibitzer]

I peeked at Volnation for enlightening discussion of these issues. What I found there was a low level of literacy and a high level of criticeracy.

 

[CL82]

The inquiry would just be about the complaints to the NCAA from Tenn. and the response about the complaints to the NCAA from Connecticut.Sorry but the coaches are setting a bad example to impressionable young women on how to hold a grudge.It should have been a non issue after the NCAA ruled.Fight out on the court and leave it there after the game.

So you are saying that anyone can do anything at any time, no matter how slimy, underhanded or ill intended, but if they fail they rest of us should just disregard it? How noble of you, well kind of not, since you are just incentivizing asocial and amoral behavior.

Geno would have been justified in loading up for bear and going right back at Summitt and the Tennessee. He took the high road and chose not to, but that doesn't mean that needs to associate with people who launched a mean spirited, dirty smear campaign in attempt to do off the court what they couldn't do on the court.

I remember Tennessee posters on the Summit who felt that by not playing Connecticut, they would push the Huskies into irrelevancy. Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Bayareahusky]

A better example would be Morgan. I'll give you two guesses where Morgan would have gone to school if she did not go to UCONN-the first one doesn't count. The 2014 Lady Vols roster had two player who were high school teammates of Morgan- Ariel Massengale & Nia Moore. Massengale was to be Pat's savior and "allegedly" went to Lady Vols because she was promised a starting position. Nia Moore is still on the Lady Vols roster and while I'm sure Morgan doesn't think about playing TN everyday she might think it nice to match up against former HS teammates. Small world ?

Interesting conjecture..... I do not know if Pat promised Ariel starting spot, but would not be surprised.... I say that because Pat dressed down her guards publicly, saying after Ariel committed, something to the effect that her guards would really learn how to play the position when Ariel got to campus the following year..... couldn't believe she handled it that way, but she did..... What I do not know for sure but remember hearing about were the demands of Ariel's father......

Don't remember Morgan as having Tenn on her list of schools, but it does make one think how things would have turned out for Morgan if that did happen..... Her sister had unfortunate circumstance of ending up in that mess at Illinois..... so, as I have heard her parents say, the journey at UConn has been a joy for at the Tuck family.... and Oh how we love Morgan!!!

 

[CocoHusky]

Interesting conjecture..... I do not know if Pat promised Ariel starting spot, but would not be surprised.... I say that because Pat dressed down her guards publicly, saying after Ariel committed, something to the effect that her guards would really learn how to play the position when Ariel got to campus the following year..... couldn't believe she handled it that way, but she did..... What I do not know for sure but remember hearing about were the demands of Ariel's father.

Don't remember Morgan as having Tenn on her list of schools, but it does make one think how things would have turned out for Morgan if that did happen..... Her sister had unfortunate circumstance of ending up in that mess at Illinois..... so, as I have heard her parents say, the journey at UConn has been a joy for at the Tuck family.... and Oh how we love Morgan!!!

Morgan's link to TN is documented in a couple of places 1) Her ESPN ranking profile. and here : " Massengale has won two state titles at the 4A level for Bolingbrook High School in 2009 and 2010 – a teammate is 6'2 post Morgan Tuck, who is in the class of 2012 and whose name also has come up with regard to Tennessee – and has won consective gold medals the past two summers for USA basketball for the U16 and U17 teams.
http://www.scout.com/college/tennessee/story/996184-ariel-massengale-commits-to-lady-vols
Agree that the Tuck family must be giving thanks for avoiding the UT mess and Morgan is a JOY!

FYI Another opportunity to flog TN. After they figured out Morgan was not coming to TN they signed Bashara Graves-who in some of the rating services was ranked ahead of Morgan. The UT fanbase universally said that Graves was the better player anyway-sound familiar?

 

[Bayareahusky]

The inquiry would just be about the complaints to the NCAA from Tenn. and the response about the complaints to the NCAA from Connecticut.Sorry but the coaches are setting a bad example to impressionable young women on how to hold a grudge.It should have been a non issue after the NCAA ruled.Fight out on the court and leave it there after the game.

Wow, the coaches are setting a bad example? I agree with CL82's response to this..... Pat tried to absolutely bury our program based on charges which were backed up largely by opinion. Some of her charges in those 37 pages were incredulous. Pat was right on only the Maya arranged tour with ESPN, a secondary violation. It is ironic that Pat herself - portrayed as so lily-white - received an equal secondary violation from the NCAA the same year I believe after a picture with Pat and recruit Meghan Simmons in a tunnel at her high school gym. It is funny, in this country, if confronted with charges without merit, the opportunity to file suit for slander or defamation of character would exist.... but this is the NCAA.... you are able to throw anything against the wall, and if it doesn't stick , you are able to walk away..... no harm no foul..... to state counter to your opinion, I am proud the CT coaches have ignored Tenn since that incident.... it is far from holding a grudge.... a simple "we are sorry" would have sufficed to start the talks to meet again on the court..... if there is an example being set by the CT coaching staff to their players, it would be one which is not bad, but in fact quite noble

 

[Bayareahusky]

Morgan's link to TN is documented in a couple of places 1) Her ESPN ranking profile. and here : " Massengale has won two state titles at the 4A level for Bolingbrook High School in 2009 and 2010 – a teammate is 6'2 post Morgan Tuck, who is in the class of 2012 and whose name also has come up with regard to Tennessee – and has won consective gold medals the past two summers for USA basketball for the U16 and U17 teams.
http://www.scout.com/college/tennessee/story/996184-ariel-massengale-commits-to-lady-vols
Agree that the Tuck family must be giving thanks for avoiding the UT mess and Morgan is a JOY!

FYI Another opportunity to flog TN. After they figured out Morgan was not coming to TN they signed Bashara Graves-who in some of the rating services was ranked ahead of Morgan. The UT fanbase universally said that Graves was the better player anyway-sound familiar?

Thanks, didn't know Morgan's name was floated around as being linked with the LVs..... ya and the TN fan base..... and Morgan vs. Bashara......... reminds me of the present litany..... that being about "we didn't need Dangerfield anyway, Tea Cooper is much better"

For the record, I like the way Bashara plays.... she hustles and visibly wants to win more than any other player I can see..... she is tough player.