Better Career: Ray Allen or Allen Iverson ?

[uconnbill]

Ray was a better teammate but Al was a better overall scorer.

I would take Ray in a heartbeat because of being a better teammate

 

[champs99and04]

I'm with you. I think Kobe is overrated by many many people. He's a very good player historically, but was never the best player in the game, even for a season (yes, even when he averaged 35 ppg). He is the greatest volume scorer ever.

Also, his defense is wildly overrated. There was a time, when he played with Shaq, where, yes, he was a fantastic defender. But once Shaq left, so did the D.

He has 5 titles, I'll concede that. And he earned them, too. But he won 3 with Shaq, and he needed Perkins to tear his ACL to win his 5th.

I agree with pretty much all of this, but I think that last part is unfair. For starters, there is no way to know what would have happened if Perkins hadn't torn his ACL (though I tend to agree the Celtics probably would have won), and secondly, you can apply the injury card to hundreds of different series' throughout the history of the NBA, and it could just as easily be said that a healthy Andrew Bynum could have swung the series in '08 (and he wasn't full-strength in '10, either).

 

[tzznandrew]

I agree with pretty much all of this, but I think that last part is unfair. For starters, there is no way to know what would have happened if Perkins hadn't torn his ACL (though I tend to agree the Celtics probably would have won), and secondly, you can apply the injury card to hundreds of different series' throughout the history of the NBA, and it could just as easily be said that a healthy Andrew Bynum could have swung the series in '08 (and he wasn't full-strength in '10, either).

Fair enough on that point. My thought is more that he performed horribly in that Game 7, and I should have stuck with that.

 

[Husky25]

Elgin Baylor and The Logo cannot be compared to Bryant if only because of era. They probably had more impact on the game as a whole, but it is at least debatable.

Ray Allen has had a better Career than Iverson and its not close, but there were also different expectations. Iverson was expected to come in a save a franchise. Ray Allen was expected to be a complimentary starter with the Big Dog and later, Sam Cassell. As a result, Allen was allowed to grow into a leader. Iverson had to be one on day one. Ray is also still playing.

 

[tzznandrew]

Elgin Baylor and The Logo cannot be compared to Bryant if only because of era. They probably had more impact on the game as a whole, but it is at least debatable.

You don't get to just say, carte blanche, the people playing now are better. We can compare. There are stats, like PER, that look at how these guys did against their peers (and some of them don't back me up--Kobe has a higher career PER than West, for one). But also, West played with and against numerous players from the 60s and 70s, and performed well against them. And they played against players from the 70s and 80s. And they played against players from the 90s. And there wasn't a sudden drop. West played against Kareem. Kareem played against Bird and Jordan. Jordan played against Shaq. Shaq played with Kobe.

 

[Joobie]

Ray Allen picked 5th in the NBA draft in 1996, is still playing. Is still hitting winning shots. Is still a member of a championship caliber team. Allen Iverson,picked 1st in the 1996 draft, is DONE. He's a cartoon of what he once was. People remember him more for his practice rant than for his game. In 2014 Ray Allen is still relevant in the world of basketball & Allen Iverson ISN'T!

Enough said...

 

[Dave Carlson]

Going back to the original question about who has had the better career, I think the last couple of years say it all. Ray was recruited by the game's best player. Nobody wanted AI even though he could still play. What does that say about his career? His career ended with pity, but not enough to make any team give him a chance. He was a chemistry killer. It's probably true that the "76ers team he took to the finals may have been the weakest finals team ever". But the team they beat to get there was clearly one of the worst teams to ever make a conference final.

You mean the Bucks team with Ray Allen, Sam Cassell and Glenn Robinson that won more games and went further in the playoffs than any Ray Allen-led team ever? Let me see if I understand your logic: if only Allen Iverson and his team of role players had overcome a team that had a better star player than Ray Allen, you would be more impressed with Allen Iverson carrying his team to the finals. In the context of comparing Allen Iverson (unfavorably) to Ray Allen. That's just fantastic!

 

[Husky25]

You don't get to just say, carte blanche, the people playing now are better. We can compare. There are stats, like PER, that look at how these guys did against their peers (and some of them don't back me up--Kobe has a higher career PER than West, for one). But also, West played with and against numerous players from the 60s and 70s, and performed well against them. And they played against players from the 70s and 80s. And they played against players from the 90s. And there wasn't a sudden drop. West played against Kareem. Kareem played against Bird and Jordan. Jordan played against Shaq. Shaq played with Kobe.

I didn't say one era was better than the other or that those playing in a given era are better. I said they cannot be compared. I'm not sure how PER is calculated but does it take into account rule changes? How about referee bias? You can boil down statistics any which way you choose, but none of them are perfect. If distilled carefully enough, most can support what ever argument you are presenting.

 

[tzznandrew]

I didn't say one era was better than the other or that those playing in a given era are better. I said they cannot be compared. I'm not sure how PER is calculated but does it take into account rule changes? How about referee bias? You can boil down statistics any which way you choose, but none of them are perfect. If distilled carefully enough, most can support what ever argument you are presenting.

I get what you're saying. But I think it's a cop-out to suggest we can't compare players. Sure, nothing is perfect when comparing players of different eras...but nothing is perfect when comparing players from the same era.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Going back to the original question about who has had the better career, I think the last couple of years say it all. Ray was recruited by the game's best player. Nobody wanted AI even though he could still play. What does that say about his career?

What a strange attempt at a point. It doesn't say anything about his career. Miami wanted Ray because he's a (deadly) spot up three point shooter. Iverson is (was?) an undersized scoring guard. What does the fact that Miami wanted Ray - or the fact that Ray's primary skill has a longer shelf life than Iverson's - possibly say about their respective careers? I don't think anything.

 

[Waquoit]

You mean the Bucks team with Ray Allen, Sam Cassell and Glenn Robinson that won more games and went further in the playoffs than any Ray Allen-led team ever? Let me see if I understand your logic: if only Allen Iverson and his team of role players had overcome a team that had a better star player than Ray Allen, you would be more impressed with Allen Iverson carrying his team to the finals. In the context of comparing Allen Iverson (unfavorably) to Ray Allen. That's just fantastic!

I'll eat this one. I was thinking about the Celtics that were coached by Jim O'brian.

 

[Waquoit]

What a strange attempt at a point. It doesn't say anything about his career. Miami wanted Ray because he's a (deadly) spot up three point shooter. Iverson is (was?) an undersized scoring guard. What does the fact that Miami wanted Ray - or the fact that Ray's primary skill has a longer shelf life than Iverson's - possibly say about their respective careers? I don't think anything.

I won't eat this one. Iverson hasn't gotten a call in years because of his attitude not his skill set. He was totally unwilling to adjust his game to fit into a team concept. I think that says plenty about his career.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm not trying to trash people's knowledge of basketball, but the love affair of Kobe--and the specific phrase "most skilled 2 guard in NBA history"--is ESPN driven. That phrase in particular is a weasel phrase, too. How are you judging "skill"? It's being contrasted with "raw ability" or some nonsense to try to give Kobe an edge against MJ. It's all BS.

I'd take MJ, and Jerry West (imagine him with a 3 point line?), before Kobe. And I'd consider a healthy Elgin Baylor, too, although career-wise Kobe's got him.

Just to note, I would take Jordan for sure. Kobe wasn't that close to him imo, especially for career. Difficult for me to pick between eras (1960s). Game is so different, and let's face it, I wasn't watching.

 

[intlzncster]

After MJ retired in 98, AI was the

really, come on look at who Kobe played with in his prime as opposed to AI. Better career is Kobe obviously.

But if AI had played with better players, it might be Kobe in a landslide and we might not even be having this conversation. Maybe AI would not have played well with other star players. Not saying that's the way it would be, just that it is certainly conceivable.

 

[tzznandrew]

Difficult for me to pick between eras (1960s). Game is so different, and let's face it, I wasn't watching.

I think that's fair, and there's clearly something to it. We see it physically. But some seem to suggest that the players in the 60s were inferior, in more than just having proper health and strength conditioning.

As much as the game has changed, there's much the same. West played against Kareem, who played against Jordan. It isn't all that far removed.

 

[gtcam]

Calvin Murphy has a say about that.

old school- bob cousy

 

[Palatine]

In his entire career at UConn, Ray never spent a single day outside of first place in the Big East.

 

[BlueHen]

The way the question is worded in the thread title I have to say Ray. Longer NBA career and multiple rings. Most guys dream of having a career like Ray's. When his career is over Ray can look back with few regrets.

If your are asking who was the better player I'd say Iverson. There was a time when he was one of the top two or three guys in the league. He led a team of role players to an NBA final.

Both will be in the HOF.

 

[Gringo]

Growing up my father was able to get tickets to Knicks playoff games through his work. I was fortunate enough to see the Bulls (Jordan), Heat (in the 90's when they brawled) and AI play.

Nothing will ever top seeing Jordan drop over 40 in a playoff game at the garden. But watching AI play live was an incredible experience.

AI was an absolute warrior. He ran more than anyone else on the court. Worked harder than anyone to get open shots, and would take hard fouls from guys twice his size and get up like nothing happened.

He had a brash personality, but if you saw him live you would never question his work ethic or his will to win.

I love Ray Allen and you can make a rational argument for his career being better than AI's. But when AI was at his best, he was better than Ray.

 

[Huskybass]

[quote zenconn, post: 885887, member: 186"]Calvin Murphy has a say about that.[/quote]

Zenconn,

AI averaged over 26 points and 6 assists for his career, was an 11 time all star, won 4 scoring titles and won the mvp award in 2001. Murphy averaged under 18 points and 4.4 assists and made an all star team in 1979. Murphy had nowhere near the career that AI did.

 

[dogfan96]

If you take the question at face value, it's Ray and it's not even close. He got over on AI in the Big East for POY, regular season champs, BET champs (including the game-winner in a head-to-head matchup).. has a much longer career, will retire with a pretty comfortable lead in the All-Time 3-pt rankings (regular season AND playoffs), 2 NBA Championships (and counting).. sure-fire HOFer.... Yeah AI was better at his peak but that doesn't make a better career.

 

[jleves]

Not sure if this should figure in or not, but just for giggles, career earnings:
Ray 184 million and counting
Iverson 154 million and not counting

30 million here and 30 million there and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

 

[cordeodato]

I was always surprised that an NBA team didn't pick up Ricky Moore soley to defend Iverson.
Ricky had a knack for shutting him down. I hope one of you nuts has the figures to back up
what I am saying here.

 

[intlzncster]

Not sure if this should figure in or not, but just for giggles, career earnings:
Ray 184 million and counting
Iverson 154 million and not counting

30 million here and 30 million there and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

AI clearly better at spending though.

 

[jleves]

AI clearly better at spending though.

It's just crazy money when you put it into reality. If you make $250,000/year which most people would say is a lot of money, you would have to work for 736 years to make Ray Allen money. $75,000/year which is pretty solid and above average would take you 2,453 years to reach Ray. Crazy money.