Adamec: Asjha in the Women's HOF? Geno says....

[DaddyChoc]

Are you suggesting someone like Doug Bruno?

or Harry?

 

[VAUConnFan]

Harry used to have some very good teams at Villanova. Unless Coach McGraw has passed him, Coach Perretta has the most wins over Coach Auriemma coached UConn teams.

 

[UcMiami]

I am not going to name any coaches, I just think if you look at win totals for coaches there are a number with a lot of wins but with less impressive win percentages and if you saw them coach you might put more credit on their recruiting skills than their actual development of players and in game skill. There are also a number who racked up significant wins during a period when if you actually worked for a program where the school supported you, almost by default got 20-25 wins a season whatever you did.

 

[iamcbs]

Bill Bradley, indeed, had a stellar college career at Princeton when 50 point games were much more common. His pro career alone, as you say, was not going to get him into the HOF, but it was darn good; Those were some very popular Knicks teams on which he played. Being a Rhodes Scholar also upped his credentials.

What Bob Ryan says about Bill Walton pretty much says it all - healthy. Bill Walton was never healthy. So, if Walton is in based on a great college career, then what about guys like Austin Carr? Christian Laettner? No one had a better college career than Laettner, plus he was on the Dream Team.

Actually Bill Walton had a much, much better college career than Chritian Laettner. Walton averaged more points and rebounds, he was a 3-time national POY, they didn't allow freshman to participate on the varsity team when he was a frosh. His teams won 88 consecutive games and two Natty's. For his Pro Career, for a season and half in 77-79, he was the best player in the NBA, bar none. Before foot injuries derailed his career.

 

[iamcbs]

Geez, nobody had corrected him yet? We're slow today.
Neither is true. Pulido has a chance at 3, she came on the team as a Soph. And Tiffany Lawlor doesn't exist on UCONN's women's basketball team. Tierney Lawlor has a chance for her 3rd this year, but UCONN would have to go 5 straight for her to get 4. She joined as a FR, but in Chong's class, not Stewart/Jefferson's.

Corrections noted all around and appreciated, but the point remains the same.

 

[bellairehusky]

If Geno thinks so highly of Ashja, he should put her on the Huskies wall of honor. I know that to date has been reserved for All-Americans, but I suspect if Geno wanted her on the wall, it will happen. At least he can control that.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think it should happen. Geno himself always bemoans that some of his players would be All American had they played somewhere else, because they were unable to put up individual stats like they would have at another school. I definitely think this would have been the case with Ashja.

 

[VAUConnFan]

I am not going to name any coaches, I just think if you look at win totals for coaches there are a number with a lot of wins but with less impressive win percentages and if you saw them coach you might put more credit on their recruiting skills than their actual development of players and in game skill. There are also a number who racked up significant wins during a period when if you actually worked for a program where the school supported you, almost by default got 20-25 wins a season whatever you did.

To rack up a lot of wins a coach much hold on to his/her job. To hold on to the job, the coach must have a decent winning percentage. Low winning percentages are detrimental to long term employment.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Actually Bill Walton had a much, much better college career than Chritian Laettner. Walton averaged more points and rebounds, he was a 3-time national POY, they didn't allow freshman to participate on the varsity team when he was a frosh. His teams won 88 consecutive games and two Natty's. For his Pro Career, for a season and half in 77-79, he was the best player in the NBA, bar none. Before foot injuries derailed his career.

Not to take anything away from Bill Walton's college accomplishments, they were phenomenal. His 21-22 performance against Memphis State was classic. Let us remember, thought that Walton's two national championships came in a much different era; Much smaller tournament fields and a much less inclusive field of players. Even in this youtube era, give me a Bill Walton moment that signifies his impact on the college game. There is not a UConn fan in the country who will think fondly of Laettner; Or Kentucky fan or a Michigan fan or a UNLV fan. He broke all their hearts. And while Walton may have had better stats, it is debatable as to who had the better college career. Bill Walton, had Swen Nater on the bench backing him up. There was no one of similar ability sitting on Duke's bench. Laettner's two national championships came in the 64 team tournament era and against very formidable competition. The 1991 UNLV team was phenomenal; PHENOMENAL! The defending national champions who beat Duke by 30 the year before and was undefeated coming into that national semifinal. Michigan's Fab Five were outstanding although just freshmen at the time, but that was a time when playing five freshmen was unheard of. And just getting to the Final Four that year was the result of a classic Laettner moment. And how many men's players went to four consecutive Final Fours?

And yes, for a season and a half, a season and a half being the operative words, Bill Walton was among the top players in the NBA. to say that he was the best bar none is debatable. Kareem, after, all was still playing. I recall back in the early 90's listening to Mike and the Mad Dog on WFAN and Chris Russo had a caller on discussing the Portland-Los Angeles series in 1977. Russo went on and on, swore up and down that Bill Walton outplayed and dominated Kareem in the series. Well, someone in Russo's crack staff checked the stats and Russo very sheepishly admitted that he was totally wrong. His memory, his perceptions were out of line with the facts.

Back in the day, I loved UCLA, loved Bill Walton and would love to be able to not have to say that I do not think he is HOF worthy. but, again, he had a flash of brilliance not sustained over a period of time upon which HOF consideration is given. When these discussions come up, the #1 criteria is greatness over an extended period of time. George Foster, for a few years in Cincinatti was the best player in baseball. Eric Davis, the same. Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Mike Scott. None of them will ever be inducted into Baseball's Hall of Fame for the simple reason that it was not sustained. I like the idea of a five year window of greatness.

 

[UcMiami]

To rack up a lot of wins a coach much hold on to his/her job. To hold on to the job, the coach must have a decent winning percentage. Low winning percentages are detrimental to long term employment.

That is only just beginning to be true in WCBB - for much of its history, the number one criteria for most WCBB coaches was DON'T MAKE WAVES. Play nice with the scraps off the table we throw your way, and do not create a scandal. Look at the longevity of the coach at Seton Hall fielding non-competitive teams for 15 years.

 

[triaddukefan]

Not to take anything away from Bill Walton's college accomplishments, they were phenomenal. His 21-22 performance against Memphis State was classic. Let us remember, thought that Walton's two national championships came in a much different era; Much smaller tournament fields and a much less inclusive field of players. Even in this youtube era, give me a Bill Walton moment that signifies his impact on the college game. There is not a UConn fan in the country who will think fondly of Laettner; Or Kentucky fan or a Michigan fan or a UNLV fan. He broke all their hearts. And while Walton may have had better stats, it is debatable as to who had the better college career. Bill Walton, had Swen Nater on the bench backing him up. There was no one of similar ability sitting on Duke's bench. Laettner's two national championships came in the 64 team tournament era and against very formidable competition. The 1991 UNLV team was phenomenal; PHENOMENAL! The defending national champions who beat Duke by 30 the year before and was undefeated coming into that national semifinal. Michigan's Fab Five were outstanding although just freshmen at the time, but that was a time when playing five freshmen was unheard of. And just getting to the Final Four that year was the result of a classic Laettner moment. And how many men's players went to four consecutive Final Fours?

.

 

[iamcbs]

Not to take anything away from Bill Walton's college accomplishments, they were phenomenal. His 21-22 performance against Memphis State was classic. Let us remember, thought that Walton's two national championships came in a much different era; Much smaller tournament fields and a much less inclusive field of players. Even in this youtube era, give me a Bill Walton moment that signifies his impact on the college game. There is not a UConn fan in the country who will think fondly of Laettner; Or Kentucky fan or a Michigan fan or a UNLV fan. He broke all their hearts. And while Walton may have had better stats, it is debatable as to who had the better college career. Bill Walton, had Swen Nater on the bench backing him up. There was no one of similar ability sitting on Duke's bench. Laettner's two national championships came in the 64 team tournament era and against very formidable competition. The 1991 UNLV team was phenomenal; PHENOMENAL! The defending national champions who beat Duke by 30 the year before and was undefeated coming into that national semifinal. Michigan's Fab Five were outstanding although just freshmen at the time, but that was a time when playing five freshmen was unheard of. And just getting to the Final Four that year was the result of a classic Laettner moment. And how many men's players went to four consecutive Final Fours?

And yes, for a season and a half, a season and a half being the operative words, Bill Walton was among the top players in the NBA. to say that he was the best bar none is debatable. Kareem, after, all was still playing. I recall back in the early 90's listening to Mike and the Mad Dog on WFAN and Chris Russo had a caller on discussing the Portland-Los Angeles series in 1977. Russo went on and on, swore up and down that Bill Walton outplayed and dominated Kareem in the series. Well, someone in Russo's crack staff checked the stats and Russo very sheepishly admitted that he was totally wrong. His memory, his perceptions were out of line with the facts.

Back in the day, I loved UCLA, loved Bill Walton and would love to be able to not have to say that I do not think he is HOF worthy. but, again, he had a flash of brilliance not sustained over a period of time upon which HOF consideration is given. When these discussions come up, the #1 criteria is greatness over an extended period of time. George Foster, for a few years in Cincinatti was the best player in baseball. Eric Davis, the same. Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Mike Scott. None of them will ever be inducted into Baseball's Hall of Fame for the simple reason that it was not sustained. I like the idea of a five year window of greatness.

I agree with most of your points, with the notable exception of the fact that the competition was so much better for Laettner and the fact that Bill Walton was barred from playing as frosh and that his UCLA team won the Natty that year too. About his professional career, I completely agree but this thread needed some perspective that isn't viewed through Husky-colored glasses.

 

[VAUConnFan]

I agree with most of your points, with the notable exception of the fact that the competition was so much better for Laettner and the fact that Bill Walton was barred from playing as frosh and that his UCLA team won the Natty that year too. About his professional career, I completely agree but this thread needed some perspective that isn't viewed through Husky-colored glasses.

Are you saying that the competition Laettner faced was much better than Walton's? Because I totally agree.
I recall Bill Walton going up against the likes of Larry Kenon, David Thompson, Tom Burleson and Adrian Dantley. Hopefully, you can come up with a few other high caliber opponents because I do not believe he faced the caliber of competition Christian Laettner faced which includes the very fact that he played in the ACC. then there were formidable opponents such as Shaquille ONeal, Alonzo Mourning, Chris Webber, Larry Johnson, Stacey Augmon, Jamal Mashburn, Calbert Cheaney, Eric Montross, Hubert Davis, Jeff Fox, JR Reid, Scott Williams, Sean Elliott, Elden Campbell, Dale Davis, Tom Gugliotta, Rodney Rogers; A list that likely leaves off as many future pros as can be recalled.

 

[UcMiami]

I think you all are talking about questions of era - Walton played in an era where box scores were the way that people followed teams during the regular season with a few 'big games' being televised each year. Twenty years later NCAA basketball had started to be big business and exposure was much greater as was 'marketing' of the product and the number of schools taking the programs really seriously.

Laettner as a collegian was very good and importantly very clutch, as a pro ... pretty average.
Walton for his three years of eligibility in college was the best player in the country regardless of what his competition was.
And as for folks playing at the same time as Walton in college: Doug Collins, Ralph Sampson, Bob McAdoo, Julius Erving, Paul Westphal, Len Elmour, David Thompson, Bobby Jones, Mo Lucas, Swen Nater, George McGinnis, Marvin Barnes to hit some highlights. It was the era of the ABA so quite a few started their careers in that league. They all finished their pro careers before the explosion in coverage but all were all stars and some fairly iconic - non more so than Dr. J.

 

[iamcbs]

Are you saying that the competition Laettner faced was much better than Walton's? Because I totally agree.
I recall Bill Walton going up against the likes of Larry Kenon, David Thompson, Tom Burleson and Adrian Dantley. Hopefully, you can come up with a few other high caliber opponents because I do not believe he faced the caliber of competition Christian Laettner faced which includes the very fact that he played in the ACC. then there were formidable opponents such as Shaquille ONeal, Alonzo Mourning, Chris Webber, Larry Johnson, Stacey Augmon, Jamal Mashburn, Calbert Cheaney, Eric Montross, Hubert Davis, Jeff Fox, JR Reid, Scott Williams, Sean Elliott, Elden Campbell, Dale Davis, Tom Gugliotta, Rodney Rogers; A list that likely leaves off as many future pros as can be recalled.

So what you'd like for me to do is cull the rosters of every opponent the UCLA faced for the 3 years Walton played? Comparing era's in any sport is always subjective, who can judge? Walton could only play against the competition available when he played just like Laettner. There were players from Walton's era that went to the NBA, were there not? Some are even HOF'ers. The original premise is still did Bill Walton have a better college career than Chritian Laettner, they are close and it depends on who you like better. Comparing era's is a fruitless exercise, I have the Michael Jordan and Jim Brown arguments on an almost weekly basis and they never lead anywhere.

 

[VAUConnFan]

So what you'd like for me to do is cull the rosters of every opponent the UCLA faced for the 3 years Walton played? Comparing era's in any sport is always subjective, who can judge? Walton could only play against the competition available when he played just like Laettner. There were players from Walton's era that went to the NBA, were there not? Some are even HOF'ers. The original premise is still did Bill Walton have a better college career than Chritian Laettner, they are close and it depends on who you like better. Comparing era's is a fruitless exercise, I have the Michael Jordan and Jim Brown arguments on an almost weekly basis and they never lead anywhere.

If there were as many future pros and future hall of famers among Bill Walton's opponents as there were among Laettner's contemporaries, they cannot be recalled. Either Walton was head and shoulders better than everyone else or the competition just was not there. I cannot find/recall the competition.

Well, I honestly did not like Laettner at all; Broke my heart far too often -Michigan, UNLV, UConn, Kentucky, Indiana. I was rooting for all of them. They all lost. But must give Laettner props for being able to back up all his bravado. Rooting for Walton and UCLA, there were only two cases of heartbreak - Notre Dame and NC State. Thinking of NC State makes me wonder of David Thompson might have been a better collegiate basketball player than Bill Walton.

 

[VAUConnFan]

I think you all are talking about questions of era - Walton played in an era where box scores were the way that people followed teams during the regular season with a few 'big games' being televised each year. Twenty years later NCAA basketball had started to be big business and exposure was much greater as was 'marketing' of the product and the number of schools taking the programs really seriously.

Laettner as a collegian was very good and importantly very clutch, as a pro ... pretty average.
Walton for his three years of eligibility in college was the best player in the country regardless of what his competition was.
And as for folks playing at the same time as Walton in college: Doug Collins, Ralph Sampson, Bob McAdoo, Julius Erving, Paul Westphal, Len Elmour, David Thompson, Bobby Jones, Mo Lucas, Swen Nater, George McGinnis, Marvin Barnes to hit some highlights. It was the era of the ABA so quite a few started their careers in that league. They all finished their pro careers before the explosion in coverage but all were all stars and some fairly iconic - non more so than Dr. J.

Yes, playing at the same time but did Walton ever occasion to compete against them as a collegian?
Ralph Sampson, BTW, was born in 1960 so he cannot be among Walton's contemporaries.

As far as Laettner being average in the pros, he was named to as many NBA All Star teams as Bill Walton.

 

[triaddukefan]

Laettner was hardly average in the pros.... at least in his first 8 years in the league. I had to explain that to quite a few UNC fans in the past.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/laettch01.html

Well, I honestly did not like Laettner at all; Broke my heart far too often -Michigan, UNLV, UConn, Kentucky, Indiana. I was rooting for all of them. They all lost. But must give Laettner props for being able to back up all his bravado. Rooting for Walton and UCLA, there were only two cases of heartbreak - Notre Dame and NC State. Thinking of NC State makes me wonder of David Thompson might have been a better collegiate basketball player than Bill Walton.

Thats what made me like Laettner even more in college... the fact that everyone else hated him.

 

[j66kicker]

So what you'd like for me to do is cull the rosters of every opponent the UCLA faced for the 3 years Walton played? Comparing era's in any sport is always subjective, who can judge? Walton could only play against the competition available when he played just like Laettner. There were players from Walton's era that went to the NBA, were there not? Some are even HOF'ers. The original premise is still did Bill Walton have a better college career than Chritian Laettner, they are close and it depends on who you like better. Comparing era's is a fruitless exercise, I have the Michael Jordan and Jim Brown arguments on an almost weekly basis and they never lead anywhere.

Well that makes it easy! Always thought Walton was a goofball, never really cared for him that much. UNTIL NOW! I hate Laettner SOOOO bad - GO BILL!!!

 

[iamcbs]

Laettner was hardly average in the pros.... at least in his first 8 years in the league. I had to explain that to quite a few UNC fans in the past.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/laettch01.html



Thats what made me like Laettner even more in college... the fact that everyone else hated him.

Your own post shows Laettner's NBA career to be pedestrian at best, just because you like him doesn't change the fact that he was a mediocre NBA player. If the stats don't convince you, your eyes should have.

 

[iamcbs]

If there were as many future pros and future hall of famers among Bill Walton's opponents as there were among Laettner's contemporaries, they cannot be recalled. Either Walton was head and shoulders better than everyone else or the competition just was not there. I cannot find/recall the competition.

Well, I honestly did not like Laettner at all; Broke my heart far too often -Michigan, UNLV, UConn, Kentucky, Indiana. I was rooting for all of them. They all lost. But must give Laettner props for being able to back up all his bravado. Rooting for Walton and UCLA, there were only two cases of heartbreak - Notre Dame and NC State. Thinking of NC State makes me wonder of David Thompson might have been a better collegiate basketball player than Bill Walton.

The nexus of all of the posts in this thread is that you don't like Bill Walton, so nothing presented here will convince you of his greatness

 

[UcMiami]

Yes, playing at the same time but did Walton ever occasion to compete against them as a collegian?
Ralph Sampson, BTW, was born in 1960 so he cannot be among Walton's contemporaries.

As far as Laettner being average in the pros, he was named to as many NBA All Star teams as Bill Walton.

Um no - he was only an NBA all star once, and was never a Finals MVP nor a NBA MVP
Laettner: 2x NCAA Champion, 1x FF MVP, 1x NCAA MVP, 1x NBA rookie of the year, 1 x NBA All Star
Walton: 2 x NCAA Champion, 2 x FF MVP, 3x NCAA MVP, 2x NBA All Star, 1x NBA MVP, 1x NBA Finals MVP, 2x NBA Champion.
Latenter had more healthy years in the NBA but never made the impact that Walton did in his few healthy years. And in college Walton was the best player in college basketball for his three years

Mistake on Sampson in my above list, but the others were all NBA all stars drafted from 1972-1975 so potential opponents and contemporaries - the NBA and ABA were in full war mode at that point so talent was being spread between the two leagues at the pro level.

 

[VAUConnFan]

The nexus of all of the posts in this thread is that you don't like Bill Walton, so nothing presented here will convince you of his greatness

Wrong! Totally wrong! I always rooted for him in college and almost always as a pro. Absolutely loved his game. Just do not believe he had a career that was HOF worthy; And, like Doc Rivers, am amazed that Walton was a first ballot hall of famer while a great transcendant player like Earl Monroe did not get in until a backdoor ballot was conducted after not making it on his fifth year on the HOF ballot. Please! Elvin Hayes did not get inducted on the first ballot. Elvin Hayes!

 

[UcMiami]

Wrong! Totally wrong! I always rooted for him in college and almost always as a pro. Absolutely loved his game. Just do not believe he had a career that was HOF worthy; And, like Doc Rivers, am amazed that Walton was a first ballot hall of famer while a great transcendant player like Earl Monroe did not get in until a backdoor ballot was conducted after not making it on his fifth year on the HOF ballot. Please! Elvin Hayes did not get inducted on the first ballot. Elvin Hayes!

Halls of Fame ballotings are often strange and motivated by current sentiment. I would say that Walton was probably elected for two reasons - 1) He is likely one of the top 5 college centers of all time playing for an iconic team and coach, and likely is considered one of the top 10 certainly top 20 all time college players; and 2) In his brief healthy moments in his pro career, he was brilliant and stood out as the best player in the league for one season, and even in his incomplete years when healthy for even a few games was one of the best for those games.

 

[iamcbs]

Wrong! Totally wrong! I always rooted for him in college and almost always as a pro. Absolutely loved his game. Just do not believe he had a career that was HOF worthy; And, like Doc Rivers, am amazed that Walton was a first ballot hall of famer while a great transcendant player like Earl Monroe did not get in until a backdoor ballot was conducted after not making it on his fifth year on the HOF ballot. Please! Elvin Hayes did not get inducted on the first ballot. Elvin Hayes!

That's why the College and Pro Basketball HOF needs to be separated just as it is in many other sports. Pete Maravich was a first ballot HOF'er and his pro career wasn't spectacular, even though he is my all-time favorite BB Player.

 

[VAUConnFan]

That's why the College and Pro Basketball HOF needs to be separated just as it is in many other sports. Pete Maravich was a first ballot HOF'er and his pro career wasn't spectacular, even though he is my all-time favorite BB Player.

As gifted a basketball player as has ever played the game. Ball handling, passing, creativity, showmanship. It was fortunate for the game that he came along. Unfortunate for his college career that he did not attend LSU a decade or so later.