A thread (eventually) about turnovers

[RockyMTblue2]

Geno's explanation last year on camera was that "we are a somewhat schitzophrenic team" - sort of when we are good we are very, very good and when we are bad we're BAD. There were two demonstrations of that in the National Semi and the Final games. Both were in the 2d halfs. In the Semi Geno quickly called a time out - with a huge lead against Louisville he let it run longer; you may recall he was interviewed during the later time out and was sputtering and doing his hair rub thing and referred to "getting them to throw it to our guys!"

 

[Icebear]

This team is much less uneven so far this year.

 

[JoePgh]

You mentioned that Kelly and Caroline had a large number of turnovers last year, and that the guards this year are being more "careful". Is that a good thing? Kelly in particular may have had a lot of TO's, but her A/TO ratio was outstanding (leading the nation for much of last year). That's because she tried (and usually succeeded) to thread passes through the defense for layups. But inevitably some of those passes resulted in turnovers -- sometimes because the intended recipient of the pass was not ready for it or cut the wrong way (not Kelly's fault).

I wonder which player on the team had the most missed 3's last year. I don't know, but I will bet it was KML. Does that mean that she should take fewer 3-point shots because she is a careless shooter? Does it mean that Brianna or Moriah should take more 3's than KML this year because they are more "careful"? The absurdity of those suggestions should tell you something about the fallacy of looking at TO's without also looking at assists. And I believe UConn led the nation last year, and is leading this year, in A/TO ratio.

 

[DavidinNaples]

You mentioned that Kelly and Caroline had a large number of turnovers last year, and that the guards this year are being more "careful". Is that a good thing? Kelly in particular may have had a lot of TO's, but her A/TO ratio was outstanding (leading the nation for much of last year). That's because she tried (and usually succeeded) to thread passes through the defense for layups. But inevitably some of those passes resulted in turnovers -- sometimes because the intended recipient of the pass was not ready for it or cut the wrong way (not Kelly's fault).

I wonder which player on the team had the most missed 3's last year. I don't know, but I will bet it was KML. Does that mean that she should take fewer 3-point shots because she is a careless shooter? Does it mean that Brianna or Moriah should take more 3's than KML this year because they are more "careful"? The absurdity of those suggestions should tell you something about the fallacy of looking at TO's without also looking at assists. And I believe UConn led the nation last year, and is leading this year, in A/TO ratio.

Joe...actually I said Kelly and Caroline's ball handling was being replaced by 2 sophomores who we're being more careful (than they were last year as freshman), Banks w/ 11 turnovers and Chong, a freshman who only has 8 turnovers. I placed no fault or blame, just noted their 124 total TOs. I never said KMLwas a "careless shooter". You are being "absurd" in trying to extend my discussion about fewer turnovers into the "fallacy of looking at TOs without also looking at assists" and KML's 3 pt shooting. Did you read my thread on Sunday about UConn statistics. It discusses turnovers, steals, assists, among other statistical categories. Stick to an analysis of what I actually said. Thanks.

P.S. - KML made the most 3s last year (118) and missed the most 3s last year (122). However, she makes nearly 50% of the 3s she takes. Only an idiot would say Banks or MoJeff should take more 3s than the best 3 point shooter on the team, KML.

 

[Sonny44]

Time for some comportment?

 

[Scotter]

UConn's passing offense typically does result in more turnovers than other styles of play that don't involve post entry passes, whether it is a Villanova style or a isolation style or a point guard that dominates the ball. This is true from the NBA level. When the Boston Celtics won their most recent NBA title for example were a relatively high turnover team.

UConn's turnovers this year are low even for this point of the year, but I don't think it is universally a good thing. Some of it is the product or the short rotation, which leads to fewer communication mistakes. But also as while a number of players have made big strides since last season as a whole this is still one of the least dynamic passing teams UConn has had. And particularly in the high reward and high risk area of post entry passing. The best post entry passers on the team were lost to graduation. Kaleena has been sidelined, and the other good post entry passer is a post herself. And there's really not a single natural post entry passer anywhere else on the roster among so those passes aren't being attempted much. .

 

[JoePgh]

P.S. - KML made the most 3s last year (118) and missed the most 3s last year (122). However, she makes nearly 50% of the 3s she takes. Only an idiot would say Banks or MoJeff should take more 3s than the best 3 point shooter on the team, KML.

Indeed so. And the general principle which that illustrates is that an excellent 3-point shooter should not set as her goal to minimize missed 3's. When you are hitting nearly 50%, your made 3's will help the team far more than your misses hurt the team.

The exact same principle says that an excellent passer such as Kelly should not set as her goal to minimize turnovers. Since she is an excellent passer, her successful passes which result in layups or easy shots will help the team far more than her turnovers will hurt the team.

A corollary is that an assertion that one team "takes care of the ball" better than another team on the basis that it has fewer turnovers per game is a non sequitur. If the first team has many assists and a high A/TO ratio, it make actually take better care of the ball despite its higher turnovers.

 

[DavidinNaples]

Indeed so. And the general principle which that illustrates is that an excellent 3-point shooter should not set as her goal to minimize missed 3's. When you are hitting nearly 50%, your made 3's will help the team far more than your misses hurt the team.

The exact same principle says that an excellent passer such as Kelly should not set as her goal to minimize turnovers. Since she is an excellent passer, her successful passes which result in layups or easy shots will help the team far more than her turnovers will hurt the team.

A corollary is that an assertion that one team "takes care of the ball" better than another team on the basis that it has fewer turnovers per game is a non sequitur. If the first team has many assists and a high A/TO ratio, it make actually take better care of the ball despite its higher turnovers.

Joe....some of what you say makes perfect sense. Other parts make no sense, at least to me. "Kelly should not set as her goal to minimize turnovers." Really? Don't you think she wanted to make as many successful passes as possible AND thereby minimize turnovers? No need to answer, unless you feel the need to lecture further.
Go Huskies...!!

 

[JoePgh]

Joe....some of what you say makes perfect sense. Other parts make no sense, at least to me. "Kelly should not set as her goal to minimize turnovers." Really? Don't you think she wanted to make as many successful passes as possible AND thereby minimize turnovers? No need to answer, unless you feel the need to lecture further.
Go Huskies...!!

Just as KML could minimize her missed 3's by never attempting a 3-point shot (but that would be silly), Kelly could minimize her turnovers by never attempting a difficult or risky pass (but that would also be silly). If Kelly attempts a lot of difficult passes, and most succeed but others still result in a comparatively large number of turnovers, she is still helping the team just as KML is. If you attempt a lot of 3's, you are going to miss some; and if you attempt a lot of difficult passes, you are going to turn the ball over every now and then. In both cases, that is the price you play for exercising the strong points of your game. Your goal should be to maximize your contribution to the team's offense, which involves taking risks that sometimes (unavoidably) will have a bad outcome.

 

[Geno-ista]

Great point-

I prefer blueberry turnovers. BTW, I will bet you that we have fewer TOs per possession than Villanova.

undoubtedly correct with our transition /up tempo offense and Villanova's deliberate offense!

 

[reno tony]

Okay, I got, turnovers bad.... high A/TO ratio good. But answer this one please. Should a team that shoots 90% from the floor be blamed for having low offensive rebound totals?

 

[Icebear]

Okay, I got, turnovers bad.... high A/TO ratio good. But answer this one please. Should a team that shoots 90% from the floor be blamed for having low offensive rebound totals?

Of course, you have to blame them for something.