POY Candidates?

[bballnut90]

We're about midway through the year--who right now is in the running for POY?

As of right now I think Clark is the runaway choice (27 points, 7 boards, 7 assists) with Reese as a dark horse if she keeps up her insane numbers (24 points, 16 rebounds, 60% FG) in SEC play.

Other contenders on the outside looking in:

Aliyah Boston-I don't want to reopen the can of worms of is she deserving or not, fact is she's best player on the #1 team and is the reigning POY so she'll get consideration. I think numbers are there for AA honors, but not for POY. Would not be my pick at this time.

Cameron Brink-she's Stanford's standout this year, but I don't see her getting POY awards. Numbers and consistency isn't there as of right now.

Olivia Miles-Great numbers, Notre Dame is a top 5-10 team. Can't see a strong argument for her beating Clark unless she leads ND to #1 seed going into the tournament.


Not legitimate POY contenders but having great years:
Mackenzie Holmes
Taylor Mikesell
Maddy Siegrist
Elizabeth Kitley
Alissa Pili
Ashley Joens
Aaliyah Edwards
Diamond Miller
Leigha Brown
Haley Jones

 

[Bone Dog]

Thanks, @bballnut90. You frame the question in an interesting and helpful way. Your preliminary judgments are reasonable.

One thing I notice, reading your post, is that the puzzle about Clark, Miles and Reese is about their teams more than them. By contrast, Boston and Brink are not really burdened by doubts about their teams. Both SC and Stanford are very likely to make it to the Final Four, and this relieves them of having to answer the question of whether or not their individual records were in the service of some greater team achievement.

Clark and Reese are putting up POY credible individual numbers right now, but the question marks about their respective teams is likely to persist. Iowa has been tested already a few times, and done well in one case and less well in others. They played tough against us for 3 quarters and I think that spoke well about their chances. And the win against Michigan was for real. But they played less well against Illinois and K St. Consistency seems not to be their strength, at least not yet. LSU's schedule has been weak. But they played well against Ore St and Arkansas, who are real opponents. Maybe the Kentucky game counts, too. As with UConn, the upcoming games against Tennessee and SC will settle pretty much all questions about this team. But if Iowa and LSU are eliminated early in their conference tournaments or in the NCAA tournament, it will be harder to give Clark and Reese all the credit their individual records might seem to deserve.

 

[bballnut90]

Thanks, @bballnut90. You frame the question in an interesting and helpful way. Your preliminary judgments are reasonable.

One thing I notice, reading your post, is that the puzzle about Clark, Miles and Reese is about their teams more than them. By contrast, Boston and Brink are not really burdened by doubts about their teams. Both SC and Stanford are very likely to make it to the Final Four, and this relieves them of having to answer the question of whether or not their individual records were in the service of some greater team achievement.

Clark and Reese are putting up POY credible individual numbers right now, but the question marks about their respective teams is likely to persist. Iowa has been tested already a few times, and done well in one case and less well in others. They played tough against us for 3 quarters and I think that spoke well about their chances. And the win against Michigan was for real. But they played less well against Illinois and K St. Consistency seems not to be their strength, at least not yet. LSU's schedule has been weak. But they played well against Ore St and Arkansas, who are real opponents. Maybe the Kentucky game counts, too. As with UConn, the upcoming games against Tennessee and SC will settle pretty much all questions about this team. But if Iowa and LSU are eliminated early in their conference tournaments or in the NCAA tournament, it will be harder to give Clark and Reese all the credit their individual records might seem to deserve.

Well put and I agree. Historically POY almost always goes to a player on a top 4-5 team, but none of the top teams have candidates that are playing at that high of a level right now. Looking back, Gustafson won at Iowa when Iowa was consistently in the 7-10 range, Plum won when Washington was in a similar range, Wilson won when SC was I think #6-8 all year. The first 2 had insane numbers not dissimilar from Clark this year, Wilson had great numbers too and had the preordained POY title all season. I think Clark would be deemed a worthy POY if she can keep Iowa a top 3-4 seed and get her team deep in the Big Ten tourney and make the Sweet 16. Iowa does have another strong win vs Iowa State that wasn’t mentioned. They’ve been a little up and down, but honestly every team has. Most teams this year feel like they’re finding their identity, including all of the top teams. SC/Stanford are still figuring out their rotation and depth chart, both were heavily tested by mediocre teams tonight. UCONN and Ohio State have had to constantly switch lineups due to injury, Notre Dame and Indiana haven’t played consistently well either. There really hasn’t been a slam dunk team this year that looks polished yet, but the same was true of Iowa a year ago and they finished the season on a hot streak until they were upset in the second round.

In regards to LSU, I wouldn’t consider Kentucky a real opponent. They’ve been awful this year. Rest of the SEC looks weak too outside of SC and Tennessee, so I think LSU rather easily finishes top 3 in conference. How Reese performs vs SC and Tennessee will likely play a big role in how strongly she gets considered for hardware. If she can’t produce against the only decent opponents on their schedule, I don’t think she’d be considered worthy of POY. Have to show up when it counts, and unfortunately for her, she has very few opportunities to prove this.

 

[The deacon]

Well put and I agree. Historically POY almost always goes to a player on a top 4-5 team, but none of the top teams have candidates that are playing at that high of a level right now. Looking back, Gustafson won at Iowa when Iowa was consistently in the 7-10 range, Plum won when Washington was in a similar range, Wilson won when SC was I think #6-8 all year. The first 2 had insane numbers not dissimilar from Clark this year, Wilson had great numbers too and had the preordained POY title all season. I think Clark would be deemed a worthy POY if she can keep Iowa a top 3-4 seed and get her team deep in the Big Ten tourney and make the Sweet 16. Iowa does have another strong win vs Iowa State that wasn’t mentioned. They’ve been a little up and down, but honestly every team has. Most teams this year feel like they’re finding their identity, including all of the top teams. SC/Stanford are still figuring out their rotation and depth chart, both were heavily tested by mediocre teams tonight. UCONN and Ohio State have had to constantly switch lineups due to injury, Notre Dame and Indiana haven’t played consistently well either. There really hasn’t been a slam dunk team this year that looks polished yet, but the same was true of Iowa a year ago and they finished the season on a hot streak until they were upset in the second round.

In regards to LSU, I wouldn’t consider Kentucky a real opponent. They’ve been awful this year. Rest of the SEC looks weak too outside of SC and Tennessee, so I think LSU rather easily finishes top 3 in conference. How Reese performs vs SC and Tennessee will likely play a big role in how strongly she gets considered for hardware. If she can’t produce against the only decent opponents on their schedule, I don’t think she’d be considered worthy of POY. Have to show up when it counts, and unfortunately for her, she has very few opportunities to prove this.

Excellent work and list, ballnut90, and commentary from Bone Dog.

I'll offer just one nuanced change: I believe Maddy Siegrist deserves to be in the 'outside looking in' quartet and at this point those four in no particular order. What she's doing is remarkable, and I believe she's one of those players, like Clark, who's scoring numbers would go down were she on a better team, but well might be held in even higher regard around the nation as a great player.

Thanks for starting this thread. I suspect there'll be action here...

 

[MSSportsGuy]

Clark and Reese would be my top 2 candidates right now. Boston is sublime but her numbers are down. That doesn't change that she is the dominant player on the best team but it's a noticeable drop. Brink is on fire lately but not sure I'd put her ahead of the first two.

 

[DefenseBB]

I thought I had a thread about this on the General board with actual stats....

 

[bballnut90]

I thought I had a thread about this on the General board with actual stats....

Are you referring to the All American thread? Different topic of conversation, though similar, which is why I thought I'd make a new thread specific to POY rather than try to hijack that one.

 

[cancontent]

Clark and Reese would be my top 2 candidates right now. Boston is sublime but her numbers are down. That doesn't change that she is the dominant player on the best team but it's a noticeable drop. Brink is on fire lately but not sure I'd put her ahead of the first two.

One question - Is Boston getting double/tripled teamed more than in her sophomore and junior seasons? When her production is questioned, this response is given as a reason. Teams have been focusing on her since she joined South Carolina. What have I missed as it seems to me that she's being defended no different than before?

 

[MSSportsGuy]

One question - Is Boston getting double/tripled teamed more than in her sophomore and junior seasons? When her production is questioned, this response is given as a reason. Teams have been focusing on her since she joined South Carolina. What have I missed as it seems to me that she's being defended no different than before?

I'm not sure what it is. I've not watched enough SC this season to know what's going on. It's just noticeable in the bottom line.

 

[cancontent]

I'm not sure what it is. I've not watched enough SC this season to know what's going on. It's just noticeable in the bottom line.

I'm with you there. It's a head scratcher to me.

 

[Bone Dog]

I'm with you there. It's a head scratcher to me.

She tweaked her knee a few weeks ago: maybe she's just being cautious. I wouldn't blame her -- no point risking an injury in this most ill-starred of years if she's going to enter the draft in April. And the team may not need her to press too hard to repeat as NC.

 

[bballnut90]

One question - Is Boston getting double/tripled teamed more than in her sophomore and junior seasons? When her production is questioned, this response is given as a reason. Teams have been focusing on her since she joined South Carolina. What have I missed as it seems to me that she's being defended no different than before?

She was doubled/tripled but from the games I've seen, the spacing was better last year with Henderson who was a viable three point threat. Defenders couldn't cheat as much, where this year teams are practically begging Johnson/Fletcher/Beal to shoot wide open threes and have defenders draped around Boston when she tries to post inside. As a result, Boston isn't being prioritized in the same way she was a year ago. A lot of shots that she took are now going to Zia Cooke.

 

[cancontent]

She was doubled/tripled but from the games I've seen, the spacing was better last year with Henderson who was a viable three point threat. Defenders couldn't cheat as much, where this year teams are practically begging Johnson/Fletcher/Beal to shoot wide open threes and have defenders draped around Boston when she tries to post inside. As a result, Boston isn't being prioritized in the same way she was a year ago. A lot of shots that she took are now going to Zia Cooke.

This is a better explanation than the "doubled/tripled more" line. Thanks. When I think of it, I recall hearing that during one game, but not sure if I've heard that being said consistently.

This is rhetorical, but why omit that fact when the discussion comes up? Fans would benefit from a little more insight, especially the casual ones.

 

[The deacon]

She was doubled/tripled but from the games I've seen, the spacing was better last year with Henderson who was a viable three point threat. Defenders couldn't cheat as much, where this year teams are practically begging Johnson/Fletcher/Beal to shoot wide open threes and have defenders draped around Boston when she tries to post inside. As a result, Boston isn't being prioritized in the same way she was a year ago. A lot of shots that she took are now going to Zia Cooke.

Any discussion of South Carolina's offense should now include Cardoso, I believe, and the reality that when Aliyah isn't even in the game the Gamecocks have a viable tall post for whom the opposition has to account. Boston's numbers have gone down in scoring about the same amount this season that Kamilla's have risen. Cardoso is now also hauling in a lot more rebounds than a year ago, too, as her PT has increased.

The concern many on the BY felt when SC signed Cardoso is now being justified.

Regarding Boston and the double/triple teaming, I'm with cancontent that Aliyah has faced that for longer than this season.

 

[Bone Dog]

Any discussion of South Carolina's offense should now include Cardoso, I believe, and the reality that when Aliyah isn't even in the game the Gamecocks have a viable tall post for whom the opposition has to account. Boston's numbers have gone down in scoring about the same amount this season that Kamilla's have risen. Cardoso is now also hauling in a lot more rebounds than a year ago, too, as her PT has increased.

The concern many on the BY felt when SC signed Cardoso is now being justified.

Regarding Boston and the double/triple teaming, I'm with cancontent that Aliyah has faced that for longer than this season.

Completely agree about Cardoso. Her energy level in games is much improved over last season. She looks like a force in the paint.

 

[TC22]

She was doubled/tripled but from the games I've seen, the spacing was better last year with Henderson who was a viable three point threat. Defenders couldn't cheat as much, where this year teams are practically begging Johnson/Fletcher/Beal to shoot wide open threes and have defenders draped around Boston when she tries to post inside. As a result, Boston isn't being prioritized in the same way she was a year ago. A lot of shots that she took are now going to Zia Cooke.

Zia Or Kamilla. In a year where Dawn could have had her pad her stats because we have played some awful teams, she has chosen to give our bench players whole quarters to play instead. It's not that Aliyah is not the same dominant player that she was a year ago, it's a combination of factors that have led to the lower numbers. Where last year she was playing down low most of the time, when Kamilla comes in Aliyah moves out to the top of the key which affects her rebounding and her put back scoring. I also think it's weighing on Aliyah some because everybody just assumes it's because she's not playing well. It's brought up a lot in questions to Dawn and a couple of times to Aliyah by reporters.

 

[cancontent]

Any discussion of South Carolina's offense should now include Cardoso, I believe, and the reality that when Aliyah isn't even in the game the Gamecocks have a viable tall post for whom the opposition has to account. Boston's numbers have gone down in scoring about the same amount this season that Kamilla's have risen. Cardoso is now also hauling in a lot more rebounds than a year ago, too, as her PT has increased.

The concern many on the BY felt when SC signed Cardoso is now being justified.

Regarding Boston and the double/triple teaming, I'm with cancontent that Aliyah has faced that for longer than this season.

Completely agree. Cardoso's energy level in games is much improved over last season. She looks like a force in the paint.

1) Great point The Deacon. I didn't take this into consideration.

2) Another good point Bone Dog. Coach Staley did say that Cardoso's playing ability wasn't where they wanted it last year when she joined the team. Scary to think how she may have performed as a freshman had she committed to SC initially.

In addition to giving SC another post threat, this has helped Boston get more rest which will be big when it comes to tournament time. We talk about wear and tear on the body. Being able to rest more is a good thing I believe.

I don't have an issue with Boston's production being less than last year. It felt like the "double/triple team" was an insufficient answer when it's being discussed however.

 

[visitingcock]

I'm with you there. It's a head scratcher to me.

Her FG % is up this year and her points are down; therefore, she is shooting less. One cause is that she is playing fewer minutes per game. Another cause is that some of her cohorts on the front line are shooting more.

I believe Dawn is preparing the program for the transition to Kamilla-led team next year by sharing the burden this year. Part of it may just be that Boston is a bit less self-motivated this year. She might be having more fun teaching and pushing her younger teammates this year. She seems more relaxed

Who knows other than Dawn? It’s still working.

 

[The deacon]

Her FG % is up this year and her points are down; therefore, she is shooting less. One cause is that she is playing fewer minutes per game. Another cause is that some of her cohorts on the front line are shooting more.

I believe Dawn is preparing the program for the transition to Kamilla-led team next year by sharing the burden this year. Part of it may just be that Boston is a bit less self-motivated this year. She might be having more fun teaching and pushing her younger teammates this year. She seems more relaxed

Who knows other than Dawn? It’s still working.

Zia Or Kamilla. In a year where Dawn could have had her pad her stats because we have played some awful teams, she has chosen to give our bench players whole quarters to play instead. It's not that Aliyah is not the same dominant player that she was a year ago, it's a combination of factors that have led to the lower numbers. Where last year she was playing down low most of the time, when Kamilla comes in Aliyah moves out to the top of the key which affects her rebounding and her put back scoring. I also think it's weighing on Aliyah some because everybody just assumes it's because she's not playing well. It's brought up a lot in questions to Dawn and a couple of times to Aliyah by reporters.

Lots of interesting stuff being bandied about here. It certainly would be human nature on Aliyah's part to at least notice that media is pointing to her lessened production, whether justified or not on their part.

Please let me ask you both, visitingcock and TC22, given your perspectives and all else we know about their respective performances this season, since we're on a POY thread, at this point would you vote for Aliyah or Caitlin as POY?

 

[Bone Dog]

All this discussion of Boston’s stats in relation to awards probably doesn’t matter to her as much as it does to us. I suspect she cares a lot more about winning another NC than another NPOY.

 

[visitingcock]

Lots of interesting stuff being bandied about here. It certainly would be human nature on Aliyah's part to at least notice that media is pointing to her lessened production, whether justified or not on their part.

Please let me ask you both, visitingcock and TC22, given your perspectives and all else we know about their respective performances this season, since we're on a POY thread, at this point would you vote for Aliyah or Caitlin as POY?

Maybe neither. I’d rather see her win an unprecedented Third scholar player in. A row. ( while winning another NC).

Reese and Brinks are looking very good for two programs winning a lot of games.

 

[Bone Dog]

If Reese can carry LSU to a conference championship and at least a final four, I’d support her… assuming Azzi is out of the running.

Same for Clark

 

[The deacon]

Maybe neither. I’d rather see her win an unprecedented Third scholar player in. A row. ( while winning another NC).

Reese and Brinks are looking very good for two programs winning a lot of games.

You dodged the question, visitingcock. I agree Reese and Brinks are worthy contenders, and good for Aliyah if she's a standout student.

At this point, Clark or Boston? Oh, well, no matter.

 

[The deacon]

If Reese can carry LSU to a conference championship and at least a final four, I’d support her… assuming Azzi is out of the running.

Same for Clark

Iowa needs to win the Big Ten and make the Final Four before you'd consider Caitlin Clark, Bone Dog? Actually, same question for Angel Reese.

So basically a player has to make the Final Four or they're not a worthy candidate for POY? Man, that's a pretty stringent standard, which flies in the face of the history of the awards for both genders.