OT: all time greats: talking brady, thinking breanna.

[ClifSpliffy]

as the career of paige on the big stage begins, and the talk of all time great similarly ramps up, we'll see as im hopeful. every so often tho, and beyond rare, there are athletes who, in the lens of history, stand alone due to their record of winning, and not just stats.
brady? incomparable.
stewart? beyond incomparable. in fact, otherworldly. no athlete, ever, has a resume that looks like this:
Breanna Stewart - Wikipedia
here's a taste:
'She was the first-ever unanimous pick for AP Player of the Year and the first-ever three-time AP Player of the Year. In leading UConn to another national championship, she was part of the first four-time national championship class in NCAA history and also became the first player to be named the Final Four Most Outstanding Player four times. In her college career Stewart won 151 games and lost 5, which included four straight national championships. She is the first NCAA basketball player ever to tally 300 assists and block 300 shots.'
she has only begun her pro career with a couple of championships and mvp awards.

from the time she started playing, almost every season ended with her team winning it all, and the mvp for her. you'd better sit down before you read the wiki. no one in sport, ever.

 

[fomalhaut]

...comfortably past 400 of each when no one had done 300 of each.

It's not out of the question that Stewart might eventually be regarded as the best women's basketball player ever.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

...comfortably past 400 of each when no one had done 300 of each.

It's not out of the question that Stewart might eventually be regarded as the best women's basketball player ever.

she already is. at the ripe old age of 26.

 

[Martin]

Brady, incomparable? Cliff a little spliff lately? ????

 

[lne001]

stewart? beyond incomparable. in fact, otherworldly. no athlete, ever, has a resume that looks like this:

Bill Russell and numerous others may disagree:

As player:

• 11× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1966, 1968, 1969)
• 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1958, 1961–1963, 1965)
• 12× NBA All-Star (1958–1969)
• NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
• 3× All-NBA First Team (1959, 1963, 1965)
• 8× All-NBA Second Team (1958, 1960–1962, 1964, 1966–1968)
• NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969)
• 4× NBA rebounding champion (1958, 1959, 1964, 1965)
• NBA 25th Anniversary Team
• NBA 35th Anniversary Team
• NBA 50th Anniversary Team
• No. 6 retired by Boston Celtics
• 2× NCAA champion (1955, 1956)
• NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player (1955)
• UPI College Player of the Year (1956)
• 2× Helms Player of the Year (1955, 1956)
• 2× Consensus first-team All-American (1955, 1956)
• WCC Player of the Year (1956)
• No. 6 retired by San Francisco Dons
• 1956 Olympic Gold Medal

As coach

• 2× NBA champion (1968, 1969)

 

[ClifSpliffy]

Brady, incomparable? Cliff a little spliff lately? ????

the thread is not aboot tom terrific, 'incomparable' based upon his record of winning. it's aboot breanna, who i argue is 'beyond incomparable.' that would be more. unique. super duper unique.
'lately?' lol.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

Bill Russell and numerous others may disagree:

As player:

• 11× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1966, 1968, 1969)
• 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1958, 1961–1963, 1965)
• 12× NBA All-Star (1958–1969)
• NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
• 3× All-NBA First Team (1959, 1963, 1965)
• 8× All-NBA Second Team (1958, 1960–1962, 1964, 1966–1968)
• NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969)
• 4× NBA rebounding champion (1958, 1959, 1964, 1965)
• NBA 25th Anniversary Team
• NBA 35th Anniversary Team
• NBA 50th Anniversary Team
• No. 6 retired by Boston Celtics
• 2× NCAA champion (1955, 1956)
• NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player (1955)
• UPI College Player of the Year (1956)
• 2× Helms Player of the Year (1955, 1956)
• 2× Consensus first-team All-American (1955, 1956)
• WCC Player of the Year (1956)
• No. 6 retired by San Francisco Dons
• 1956 Olympic Gold Medal

As coach

• 2× NBA champion (1968, 1969)

they can disagree all they want - doesn't change anything. u realise that ur data is mostly based upon his pro career, right? breanna just started that part of her career with some chips and mvps to date, having just finished the most accomplished college bball career ever. 26 years old. more to come, way moar. don't get me wrong, im totally a fan of bill russels career of winning, and i understand that the men's game and history are a different reality than the ladies, but her record thus far? unprecedented. and oh, at 6'4'' she is bigger than many playing in bill's time, and would shredd many of them, too.
proving nothing other than breanna is around the average height from bill's time, this is kinda neat:
69 Years of Height Evolution in the NBA [4,379 players analyzed] | RunRepeat

 

[uconnfan68]

Bill Russell and numerous others may disagree:

As player:

• 11× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1966, 1968, 1969)
• 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1958, 1961–1963, 1965)
• 12× NBA All-Star (1958–1969)
• NBA All-Star Game MVP (1963)
• 3× All-NBA First Team (1959, 1963, 1965)
• 8× All-NBA Second Team (1958, 1960–1962, 1964, 1966–1968)
• NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969)
• 4× NBA rebounding champion (1958, 1959, 1964, 1965)
• NBA 25th Anniversary Team
• NBA 35th Anniversary Team
• NBA 50th Anniversary Team
• No. 6 retired by Boston Celtics
• 2× NCAA champion (1955, 1956)
• NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player (1955)
• UPI College Player of the Year (1956)
• 2× Helms Player of the Year (1955, 1956)
• 2× Consensus first-team All-American (1955, 1956)
• WCC Player of the Year (1956)
• No. 6 retired by San Francisco Dons
• 1956 Olympic Gold Medal

As coach

• 2× NBA champion (1968, 1969)

How can the MVP of the league not be on the first team? 1958, 1961, 1962, 1965.

 

[cancontent]

I get the point regarding Breanna, but can we slow it down just a little bit? We definitely should appreciate what she has accomplished at this point, because it hasn't been done before. I just think we get too caught up in placing the "GOAT" titles on people lately.

The Superbowl hype before the game made this evident to me. I don't recall Brady getting the same level of "GOAT" attention Mahomes did when the Pats were heading into their second Superbowl (and I'm saying this as a Bills fan who's been scarred for life thanks to the beat downs the Pats inflicted). Now people are trying to determine if Mahomes' legacy will be tainted if he doesn't get back and beat Brady at the next one?

Sports media talking heads have gotten us to a point where everyone has to be anointed as the GOAT way sooner than necessary. I'm not saying Breanna isn't in that category. I just think the term gets overused.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Don't forget Kareen (Lew Alcinder while at UCLA). In college (remember freshman couldn't play varsity back then), he was Player of the Year twice (won Helms Player of the year three times), was first team AA three times, won three championships in three years and was Most Outstanding Player in the NCAA tournament three times. And his team's record while he was there was 88-2. In other words, his college career was every bit as accomplished as Stewart's.

 

[bballnut90]

...comfortably past 400 of each when no one had done 300 of each.

It's not out of the question that Stewart might eventually be regarded as the best women's basketball player ever.

Not diminishing Stewie, but I don't know why so many places post the 300/300 stat. Cheryl Miller had 462 steals and 320 blocks at USC.

 

[hoophuskee]

as the career of paige on the big stage begins, and the talk of all time great similarly ramps up, we'll see as im hopeful. every so often tho, and beyond rare, there are athletes who, in the lens of history, stand alone due to their record of winning, and not just stats.
brady? incomparable.
stewart? beyond incomparable. in fact, otherworldly. no athlete, ever, has a resume that looks like this:
Breanna Stewart - Wikipedia
here's a taste:
'She was the first-ever unanimous pick for AP Player of the Year and the first-ever three-time AP Player of the Year. In leading UConn to another national championship, she was part of the first four-time national championship class in NCAA history and also became the first player to be named the Final Four Most Outstanding Player four times. In her college career Stewart won 151 games and lost 5, which included four straight national championships. She is the first NCAA basketball player ever to tally 300 assists and block 300 shots.'
she has only begun her pro career with a couple of championships and mvp awards.

from the time she started playing, almost every season ended with her team winning it all, and the mvp for her. you'd better sit down before you read the wiki. no one in sport, ever.

I loved your amusing comment from months ago calling Paige "A disruptor." And on this thread picking off players as "incomparable." There are always players comparable. But fun to discuss who is or isn't nevertheless.

UCONN certainly has their list though of "incomparable" people/players don't they? Thirty plus years ago would have never believed something like this.

 

[JonathanXIV]

One note about the dominance of Kareem. I once met Bill Walton and went up to him, telling him I wanted to "shake the hand of the best college basketball player I had ever seen." Walton immediately looked over his shoulder and said, "what, is Kareem here?" When I pointed out that Kareem never went 21 for 22 in a championship game, Walton replied, "he didn't have to, the games were over at halftime." A charming gentlemen who illustrates the respect that Kareem is held by other all-time greats.

 

[Cuango]

they can disagree all they want - doesn't change anything. u realise that ur data is mostly based upon his pro career, right? breanna just started that part of her career with some chips and mvps to date, having just finished the most accomplished college bball career ever. 26 years old. more to come, way moar. don't get me wrong, im totally a fan of bill russels career of winning, and i understand that the men's game and history are a different reality than the ladies, but her record thus far? unprecedented. and oh, at 6'4'' she is bigger than many playing in bill's time, and would shredd many of them, too.
proving nothing other than breanna is around the average height from bill's time, this is kinda neat:
69 Years of Height Evolution in the NBA [4,379 players analyzed] | RunRepeat

First of all, your contention that Breanna would “shredd” many of Russel’s contemporaries is simply ludicrous. I love Breanna and concede she may end up the best women’s player to ever play, but she will never win 11 championships in the pros. There is simply no comparison between them except they are both at the very top of their respective sports.

 

[JordyG]

as the career of paige on the big stage begins, and the talk of all time great similarly ramps up, we'll see as im hopeful. every so often tho, and beyond rare, there are athletes who, in the lens of history, stand alone due to their record of winning, and not just stats.
brady? incomparable.
stewart? beyond incomparable. in fact, otherworldly. no athlete, ever, has a resume that looks like this:
Breanna Stewart - Wikipedia
here's a taste:
'She was the first-ever unanimous pick for AP Player of the Year and the first-ever three-time AP Player of the Year. In leading UConn to another national championship, she was part of the first four-time national championship class in NCAA history and also became the first player to be named the Final Four Most Outstanding Player four times. In her college career Stewart won 151 games and lost 5, which included four straight national championships. She is the first NCAA basketball player ever to tally 300 assists and block 300 shots.'
she has only begun her pro career with a couple of championships and mvp awards.

from the time she started playing, almost every season ended with her team winning it all, and the mvp for her. you'd better sit down before you read the wiki. no one in sport, ever.

Every time Stewie has been to a college or professional finals there isn't a time where she has not been named MVP. That's Jordan territory.

 

[connie]

as the career of paige on the big stage begins, and the talk of all time great similarly ramps up, we'll see as im hopeful. every so often tho, and beyond rare, there are athletes who, in the lens of history, stand alone due to their record of winning, and not just stats.
brady? incomparable.
stewart? beyond incomparable. in fact, otherworldly. no athlete, ever, has a resume that looks like this:
Breanna Stewart - Wikipedia
here's a taste:
'She was the first-ever unanimous pick for AP Player of the Year and the first-ever three-time AP Player of the Year. In leading UConn to another national championship, she was part of the first four-time national championship class in NCAA history and also became the first player to be named the Final Four Most Outstanding Player four times. In her college career Stewart won 151 games and lost 5, which included four straight national championships. She is the first NCAA basketball player ever to tally 300 assists and block 300 shots.'
she has only begun her pro career with a couple of championships and mvp awards.

from the time she started playing, almost every season ended with her team winning it all, and the mvp for her. you'd better sit down before you read the wiki. no one in sport, ever.

mmmm . . . I'm not buying it. Way too many variables; not even apples to oranges. Among other things, Stewie did not win 151 games in college; her team did. She did not win four straight NCs; her team did. Put her on this year's team as a freshman, and it certainly cannot be said that she would even win the first of four straight NCs. (Even Geno recently acknowledged that as a freshman she benefitted from a team featuring a strong cast--Senior Kelly Farris, Juniors Stef Dolson and Bria Hartley, Soph KML, not to mention incredible height with Stef, Stokes and Heather Buck, among others). And yes; Stewie won the final four MOP four times. But even she admitted Moriah should have won it in 2014-15.

Moreover, while individual stats can certainly be a measure of achievement, one needs to locate such achievement historically, relative to the competition, and relative to the way the game is played and changes. This is especially the case in team sports, where individual achievments are substantially affected by team dynamic and surrounding talent. (If there is any doubt about that, I suggested asking the predicable consequence of putting Tom Brady on the Green Bay Packers and Aaron Rodgers on the NE Patriots over the past two decades. I seriously doubt Brady would have won 17 NFC North division titles, much less 9 NFC titles and 6 SBs. But I'd wager ARod would not be looking back at the past 16 years with but a single SB appearance to his resume.)

Finally, history is replete with individuals who excelled relative to the competition at the time but who likely would not have done so under different historical circumstances. Bill Russell would never have been able to enjoy a Celtics team winning 10 straight NBA titles had he happened to have played in the 1990s. Grete Waitz would never have won the NYC marathon 9 times if she had raced against today's talent. Ted Williams would never have hit .400 had he played in the 2010s. Each represents an athlete at the top of their profession in their respective sports at the time. Do they stand alone, as winners and statistically, with their respect to all sports? I am by no means convinced--not even if the exercise is restricted to their own sport, and the time and place they played. Located against a broader historical canvas and comparing with other athletes from other sports . . . I cannot agree that such comparisons are even meaningful.

 

[fomalhaut]

Not diminishing Stewie, but I don't know why so many places post the 300/300 stat. Cheryl Miller had 462 steals and 320 blocks at USC.

Good catch. The Stewart stat was assists (not steals) and blocks, but Miller had 414 assists too, so she was the first 300/300 in assists and blocks.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

1. 'She led the University of Connecticut (UConn) Huskies to four national championships, was named the Final Four's most outstanding player a record four times, and was a three-time consensus national player of the year. Stewart was the first overall pick in the 2016 WNBA Draft and was named the 2016 WNBA Rookie of the Year. She was named the WNBA MVP in 2018 and was named an All-Star in 2017 and 2018. She led the Storm to two championships in 2018 and 2020, and received the WNBA Finals MVP award both times.
no college basketball player ever has done this.
none, zippo, nada. a couple years into the pros, she already has multiple championships and mvps.
2. russ and kareem are 2 of my alltime favs. they didn't/couldn't do it in school. no one, except breanna, ever has.
talk all you want, it doesn't change 4 chips, 4 ff mvps.
apparently, the wiki 400/400 thing is incorrect. on the udder hand, i just saw this:

• Fastest WNBA player to reach 1,000 points and 500 rebounds for her career (55 games)

and this!
'She was the first-ever unanimous pick for AP Player of the Year and the first-ever three-time AP Player of the Year.'
and this!
'a third straight unanimous First-Team All-American in WBCA, USBWA and AP polls.'
and this!
FIBA Women's World Cup MVP (2018)
FIBA Under-19 Women's World Cup MVP (2013)
USA Basketball Female Athlete of the Year (2011-at 17!, 2013, 2018)

figgers. how am i not surprised? are you? why?

 

[fomalhaut]

The 300/300 comment, as bballnut90 pointed out, was incorrect, but Stewart is the only one with 400 assists/400 blocks.

 

[JonathanXIV]

1. 'She led the University of Connecticut (UConn) Huskies to four national championships, was named the Final Four's most outstanding player a record four times, and was a three-time consensus national player of the year. Stewart was the first overall pick in the 2016 WNBA Draft and was named the 2016 WNBA Rookie of the Year. She was named the WNBA MVP in 2018 and was named an All-Star in 2017 and 2018. She led the Storm to two championships in 2018 and 2020, and received the WNBA Finals MVP award both times.
no college basketball player ever has done this.
none, zippo, nada. a couple years into the pros, she already has multiple championships and mvps.
2. russ and kareem are 2 of my alltime favs. they didn't/couldn't do it in school. no one, except breanna, ever has.
talk all you want, it doesn't change 4 chips, 4 ff mvps.
apparently, the wiki 400/400 thing is incorrect. on the udder hand, i just saw this:

• Fastest WNBA player to reach 1,000 points and 500 rebounds for her career (55 games)

and this!
'She was the first-ever unanimous pick for AP Player of the Year and the first-ever three-time AP Player of the Year.'
and this!
'a third straight unanimous First-Team All-American in WBCA, USBWA and AP polls.'
and this!
FIBA Women's World Cup MVP (2018)
FIBA Under-19 Women's World Cup MVP (2013)
USA Basketball Female Athlete of the Year (2011-at 17!, 2013, 2018)

figgers. how am i not surprised? are you? why?

Again, based on the rules Kareem could only play 3 years. So yes, he couldn’t win 4 championships. But is there any doubt he would have won 4 if he could have played as a freshman?

 

[Scud49]

How can the MVP of the league not be on the first team? 1958, 1961, 1962, 1965.

Because of his scoring prowess and imposing style of play, Wilt got a lot of attention and press - and rightfully so, he was an amazing force. I'm just glad the Celtics had Bill Russell, a player who approached the game in a very low key cerebral manner and made his teammates that much better.