Why the ACC took Louisville

[whaler11]

Respectfully, that's not a healthy long term position.

Retail sales is a great example. There are managers who salivate over adding some slick salespeople. There are folks that can sell ice to an Eskimo. However, there are some of those very same salesmen that sometimes lie, or, at very least, omit some important points about the products. These people sometimes are combative with customers and coworkers.

Like sales, this isn't just about making the sale, it's about keeping sales long term. What happens if Louisville goes back into a non-dominant cycle? Then you have a southern school that is not culturally like the other ACC folks who also no longer would have the dominant major revenue sports to carry the league.

Any organization needs cohesiveness to survive. You can't just look at the "just sell" mentality. It's really about long term relationships. As I said, this may well end up going well for the ACC... but the rationale for why Louisville was added wasn't by itself wise.

Which gets back to what were their options?

They had no leverage and are geographically surrounded by two leagues who's schools make double in conference revenue.

I'm sure you could have turned water into wine, but Swofford had zero options that the membership would vote for other than Louisville - so I'd love to hear what he could have done differently when Maryland left.

 

[whaler11]

So a community college that is the #2 school in a small, poor market wins a game over a has-been Miami program, and suddenly adding Louisville was genius? Louisville has good basketball and football programs. They are also only about 300 miles from 8 or 9 other P5 programs, including some of the most storied programs in sports. New England, New York and New Jersey, one of the richest and most densely populated areas in the country, has 3 p5 schools, all of whom suck in football and two of whom suck in basketball. If this was a question of value to the conference, there was only one answer, UConn. We got outsold.

Yes Nelson I think that Louisville is valuable because they beat Miami on Monday. Not that they built themselves up over 15 years from CUSA to the athletic success they have had in the last decade.

Outsold? Well it's pretty clear there are enough schools in the ACC who either didn't want a mediocre football program or didn't want to compete locally. So if you think someone could have sold UConn to Florida State and Boston College... well obviously that is silly.

 

[billybud]

Sooo?

It was Louisville, Cincinnati, or UConn....

Who would you gamble on for long term football success, and a fit with the ACC football schools?

Various folks will see it various ways....but Louisville seems a good choice of what was there.

 

[whaler11]

The ACC has 99 problems and Louisville ain't one.

On day one in the league they are arguably putting the best combination of football and basketball teams on the field/court.

 

[whaler11]

Ah, the straw man predictably raises it's ugly head. Sigh, no Whaler I'm not proposing that.

Yes, as is your way - you say Louisville will destabilize the league but when asked how you deflect.

 

[CL82]

Yes, as is your way - you say Louisville will destabilize the league but when asked how you deflect.

Nah, you just like to create arguments that are easy for you to shoot down. I don't feel like playing along so feel free to fire off another one. I'll be here laughing and shaking my head.

 

[kyleslamb]

Which gets back to what were their options?

They had no leverage and are geographically surrounded by two leagues who's schools make double in conference revenue.

I'm sure you could have turned water into wine, but Swofford had zero options that the membership would vote for other than Louisville - so I'd love to hear what he could have done differently when Maryland left.

That's kind of my point. He didn't have leverage. He had to act out of desperation. I don't think he necessarily erred in taking Louisville, as he probably did the most he could do out of the circumstances, but personally I think UConn was slightly a better fit culturally. If it's true they made the decision because FSU had them against the wall, then it just seems to me that is a problem.

 

[whaler11]

Because it may serve as a point of dissention among conference members and as such could be serve a justification for leaving for leaving the conference.

Yep CL I can see why you'd be laughing and shaking your head.

What I quoted was your response to how Louisville would 'bite them on the butt' in this very thread.

Yes - I'm creating strawmen - you aren't saying that Louisville can cause dissention or be used as a justification for leaving.

You say things, then argue you aren't saying them based on a couched word or two - so your posts end up being pointless since you don't actually have an opinion. Just implications that you won't own.

 

[whaler11]

That's kind of my point. He didn't have leverage. He had to act out of desperation. I don't think he necessarily erred in taking Louisville, as he probably did the most he could do out of the circumstances, but personally I think UConn was slightly a better fit culturally. If it's true they made the decision because FSU had them against the wall, then it just seems to me that is a problem.

What you and I or anyone else here thinks doesn't much matter. Swofford can only invite teams that can get enough votes - and it's fairly clear there were more than enough votes to keep UConn out.

 

[kyleslamb]

What you and I or anyone else here thinks doesn't much matter. Swofford can only invite teams that can get enough votes - and it's fairly clear there were more than enough votes to keep UConn out.

Right, but I think it was more of a case where FSU and Clemson really wanted Louisville, and no one really was adamant about UConn, so they were willing to do what it took to keep those schools happy. To me, though, if you're in a situation where you have to cater to one or two schools, it really can lead to resentment later. That's the point I'm trying to get across. I fully recognize none of those things will necessarily manifest themselves, but it's a real danger.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

LOL....I have maintained that it was Delaney who panicked and jumped to Maryland and Rutgers when the ACC picked up Notre Dame for scheduled games. Big Ten insiders have said as much. (and yes, we have covered this before and I provided links).

Louisville is a good add....Rutgers? Big Tenners and Rutgers folks will sing the praises....some of us non Big Ten folks will go.... Meh.

It is the nature of the beast.

I do hate what expansion has done to the Big Ten....Wisconsin doesn't play Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, nor Penn State....and as a guy who also went to Wisconsin as well as FSU....I hate to see that.

Once I was in an unfamiliar city on business. We had worked late into the evening and a local offered me a ride to the train station. When we got there, there was a huge crowd milling about. He offered to go inside and find out what was going on. He returned to say there were no train arriving or departing. Seems there had been a fire on a stopped train but that wasn't the real problem. Seems some poor fellow had panicked at the thought of being incinerated and leapt off the train only to be killed by another train passing through.

My point? You're either lying about your B1G "insiders" or you need to look up the definition of skeptic and try to incorporate it into your everyday life cause what you said either didn't happen or somebody was pulling your leg. People who panic don't typically lurch into something that has all the hallmarks of a well thought out strategy. Picking up a moribund Rutgers and seducing a bankrupt Maryland with cash at a time when the B1G could have proceeded indefinitely as a 12 team conference makes all the sense in the world if Delany's objective had been exactly what he said it was: the northeast. The strategy was NYC/DC; the tactic was Rutgers/Md. Delany was merely waiting for the optimum moment to act. I realize you might be unfamiliar with such common business methods, Billy, because you're used to a commissioner who's, well, an idiot.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

What you and I or anyone else here thinks doesn't much matter. Swofford can only invite teams that can get enough votes - and it's fairly clear there were more than enough votes to keep UConn out.

It's Swofford's job to make the case for such votes. Either he agreed UConn was a poor choice or he unsuited for his job.

 

[kyleslamb]

LOL....I have maintained that it was Delaney who panicked and jumped to Maryland and Rutgers when the ACC picked up Notre Dame for scheduled games. Big Ten insiders have said as much. (and yes, we have covered this before and I provided links).

Louisville is a good add....Rutgers? Big Tenners and Rutgers folks will sing the praises....some of us non Big Ten folks will go.... Meh.

It is the nature of the beast.

I do hate what expansion has done to the Big Ten....Wisconsin doesn't play Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, nor Penn State....and as a guy who also went to Wisconsin as well as FSU....I hate to see that.

You have maintained it... incorrectly. As several people have pointed out to you several times, your 'insiders' consist of one public quote by Barry Alvarez that you hideously misconstrued.

Big Ten insiders suggest absolutely the contrary. The plan to add Rutgers and Maryland had been long, long in motion for several years as a possibility. They examined that scenario for two years before acting on it. The whole thing was anything but panic. It was thorough as thorough can be.

 

[whaler11]

It's Swofford's job to make the case for such votes. Either he agreed UConn was a poor choice or he unsuited for his job.

No offense but if you think Swofford can sell UConn to BC that's crazier than Nelson.

 

[whaler11]

Right, but I think it was more of a case where FSU and Clemson really wanted Louisville, and no one really was adamant about UConn, so they were willing to do what it took to keep those schools happy. To me, though, if you're in a situation where you have to cater to one or two schools, it really can lead to resentment later. That's the point I'm trying to get across. I fully recognize none of those things will necessarily manifest themselves, but it's a real danger.

If someone leaves it's going to be for getting 20 million more. Not over some powerplay by Clemson or Florida State.

 

[SouthronCross]

In my opinion UConn has been past over for ACC membership because the old boys in the Carolina's still have a distaste in their mouth over the ill conceived lawsuit against their league by former Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal.

Yeah, the Tobacco Road schools were all so incensed about the lawsuit, that they voted FOR UConn in the 2011 expansion (along with UVA and Maryland).

The lawsuit was not a factor for the NC schools. Their support of UConn should have made that point clear.

Yes, I know that other schools such as Pitts were also plaintiffs along with UConn but Blumenthal took the vocal lead on the lawsuit and the old boys of the ACC carry grudges.

While its true that Blumenthal will never be liked down here, TR let their grudges go, to vote for who they thought fit the ACC best, which included UConn.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

No offense but if you think Swofford can sell UConn to BC that's crazier than Nelson.

It's his job to develop a vision consistent with the objectives of the member institutions. Then it's his job to sell that vision. BC didn't keep UConn out all by themselves. Beyond that, I have no idea if Swofford has a vision. I certainly can't discern one Can you? He hasn't articulated one that would explain BC, Cuse, Pitt, and Louisville while leaving Rutgers and UConn and ignoreing Maryland.

 

[whaler11]

It's his job to develop a vision consistent with the objectives of the member institutions. Then it's his job to sell that vision. BC didn't keep UConn out all by themselves. Beyond that, I have no idea if Swofford has a vision. I certainly can't discern one Can you? He hasn't articulated one that would explain BC, Cuse, Pitt, and Louisville while leaving Rutgers and UConn and ignoreing Maryland.

It's a hell of a lot easier to show vision when you've got the ability to double a school's television revenue.

He is not picking the schools. If you want to hold him to the standard that he has to convince Florida State, Clemson, Boston College and Syracuse to accept UConn I guess that's fine. It's just completely unrealistic. If I were Florida State or Clemson about the last school I'd want is UConn: They literally don't do anything for them but make them travel further than they would like.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

If someone leaves it's going to be for getting 20 million more. Not over some powerplay by Clemson or Florida State.

It's not just the $20 mil. It's what the $20MM represents: strength and stability. If somebody offers $20MM extra and pays up front for year 1 but is a risky bet beyond that, I doubt many schools would jump.

 

[SouthronCross]

It's Swofford's job to make the case for such votes. Either he agreed UConn was a poor choice or he unsuited for his job.

He could have made his case for UConn until the cows came home. It was falling upon deaf ears.

There was absolutely zero chance that FSU, CU, GT, Miami, or VPI were going to vote for UConn. None...mada...nil...nein...nunca...zero...zip...zilch...bubkes.

There was nothing he could show them, or, words to convince them, that UConn was the best choice. Their minds were made up.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

It's a hell of a lot easier to show vision when you've got the ability to double a school's television revenue.

He is not picking the schools. If you want to hold him to the standard that he has to convince Florida State, Clemson, Boston College and Syracuse to accept UConn I guess that's fine. It's just completely unrealistic. If I were Florida State or Clemson about the last school I'd want is UConn: They literally don't do anything for them but make them travel further than they would like.

Can you articulate Swofford's vision? Yes or no?

 

[RegisteredUconn]

He could have made his case for UConn until the cows came home. It was falling upon deaf ears.

There was absolutely zero chance that FSU, CU, GT, Miami, or VPI were going to vote for UConn. None...mada...nil...nein...nunca...zero...zip...zilch...bubkes.

There was nothing he could show them, or, words to convince them, that UConn was the best choice. Their minds were made up.

I never said he should have made a case for UConn. I'm saying he should have a vision. I'm saying it's the CEO's job to have a vision, and if he doesn't, he's the wrong man for the job. You want to hitch your wagon to that star, go right ahead.

 

[whaler11]

Can you articulate Swofford's vision? Yes or no?

He isn't in a position to have a vision. He was in a position where survival was a good outcome.

I don't think the guy is great - but to date all he has lost is Maryland and no one has tested a GOR.

 

[whaler11]

I never said he should have made a case for UConn. I'm saying he should have a vision. I'm saying it's the CEO's job to have a vision, and if he doesn't, he's the wrong man for the job. You want to hitch your wagon to that star, go right ahead.

He isn't the CEO. He does not have that level of autonomy.

 

[CardinalZen]

I think there was a dual vision. One was to limit the power and perception of the Big East, the second was to gain an association with Notre Dame.

Getting BC, Miami, and the originally targeted Syracuse were steps towards both those goals. Politics intervened and VT came aboard instead. Still forward progress on both fronts.

After a period of consolidation, the Big XII was looking at Pittsburgh with rumors of some kind of talks with ND. The ACC was forced to act, perhaps quicker than desired. They managed to wrangle both Syracuse and Pittsburgh to come aboard, and shortly thereafter that coveted association with ND. These all demonstrated some skill as there was no leaking or foreshadowing that these moves were about to happen. To say there was no vision or skill is missing the obvious.

Rutgers and UCONN did nothing to increase the odds of a ND association. That's why Cuse and Pitt got the nod at that time.

Clearly losing Maryland was a blow. Maybe they could have accommodated them somehow. But all indications were that they were gone no matter what.

So, the selection of a replacement for Maryland was a reactionary move. The divisions had to be balanced. UCONN would have been a fine choice. But a few things worked against the Huskies...

- There was no thought of an ACC Network as there was no grant of rights, thus negating a potentially major positive for UCONN.

- The football centric schools were feeling like they where getting roughshod as none of the recent expansion moves had really helped football. So, they bowed up their backs and pushed for their preferred candidate.

- With all the talk of cultural and institution fit, no one ever mentions that Louisville fits with a predominately Southern conference better than UCONN. This is especially true for the Southern football schools.

So, before the yelling starts, I would just like to say that I support UCONN joining the ACC.