Star Wars --- The Prophecy

[Scalito]

So I was rewatching them now that they're digitally available on Amazon, and I am bothered again by the whole Vader prophecy thingy. The one about Vader bringing balance to the force?

Question: Was the prophecy simply misunderstood (e.g., by wiping out the Jedi, Vader balanced the good and dark side) or was he not the one prophesied? I could just keep on ignoring the prequels like they never happened, but I'm interested in theories making the prequels coherent.

 

[August_West]

So I was rewatching them now that they're digitally available on Amazon, and I am bothered again by the whole Vader prophecy thingy. The one about Vader bringing balance to the force? Question: Was the prophecy simply misunderstood (e.g., by wiping out the Jedi, Vader balanced the good and dark side) or was he not the one prophesied? I could just keep on ignoring the prequels like they never happened, but I'm interested in theories making the prequels coherent.

Can you make the prequels coherent? That's a Herculean task. I'm still a fan of them because I gobble up all that stuff without reservation, but the muffed some stuff for sure.

 

[SubbaBub]

So I was rewatching them now that they're digitally available on Amazon, and I am bothered again by the whole Vader prophecy thingy. The one about Vader bringing balance to the force?

Question: Was the prophecy simply misunderstood (e.g., by wiping out the Jedi, Vader balanced the good and dark side) or was he not the one prophesied? I could just keep on ignoring the prequels like they never happened, but I'm interested in theories making the prequels coherent.

I always thought it was Luke who brought balance to the force. If the force is like an ocean with ebbs and flows, then in all six movies the turbulence caused by the Sith was the cause of the imbalance.

By Luke destroying the Sith Lord and his apprectice, the cycle of turbulence is broken and balance or calmness returns to the force. That is until the "Force Awakens"

 

[Scalito]

I always thought it was Luke who brought balance to the force. If the force is like an ocean with ebbs and flows, then in all six movies the turbulence caused by the Sith was the cause of the imbalance.

By Luke destroying the Sith Lord and his apprectice, the cycle of turbulence is broken and balance or calmness returns to the force. That is until the "Force Awakens"

I think that's the best theory. You could also argue, I think, that Vader fulfilled the prophecy when tossing the Emperor into whatever fissile material caused the big blue explosion. I just wish it was clearer to me . . . . .

 

[Scalito]

Can you make the prequels coherent? That's a Herculean task. I'm still a fan of them because I gobble up all that stuff without reservation, but the muffed some stuff for sure.

I bought number two and three on Amazon because there's some redemptive qualities to them. I think of them like Godfather III. Poorly done, but I like the story too much not to watch em. Number One has nothing redeemable about it. It doesn't exist in my mind.

 

[mets1090]

Like most, I tend to just erase the prequels from memory. However, you could either say that Vader killing the Emperor fulfilled the prophecy or (in a more roundabout manner) Luke + Vader = balanced force. I prefer the first, but yeah it's kinda funky either way.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I'm still firmly in the camp that believes that Lucas should have stopped after wrapping The Empire Strikes Back.

 

[ZooCougar]

You can ignore 1-3 and still love 4-6 in all of their glory. 1-3 are utter and complete garbage that should be completely retconned.

 

[junglehusky]

I buy Vader throwing the emperor to his death as the restoration of balance but there's also something to be said for the Jedi (particularly Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon) being overconfident in the prophecy and their ability to train anakin. Palatine, I mean Palpatine, took advantage of their arrogance on ep III. Maybe the "prophecy" was planted by the Sith in ancient times.

Here is something that bugs me much more than that. In ROTJ as Luke is leaving Dagobah to rescue Han/Leiah/Chewie, Obi-Wan's ghost says "that boy was our last hope" and Yoda says "No. There is another." A) Yoda's line should be "Another, there is"... B) in ROTS, Lucas wrote the birth of Luke and Leia with both Obi-Wan and Yoda present. So Obi-Wan should have known about Leia and her abilities and not said that line. Or rather, Lucas should have had only Yoda present at the twins' birth, have Yoda give baby Luke to Obi-Wan and baby Leia to Bail Organa separately so that only Yoda and not Obi-Wan has knowledge of Leia's existence. Then Obi-Wan('s ghost) learns about it in ROTJ.

Another thing is that in ROTJ Leia says she remembers her mother being sad, while Luke says he has no memory of his mother. What's up with that? It implies Leia was a kid or at least a small child while Padme was still alive, which is clearly not depicted in ROTS. Alternatively maybe Leia's Jedi powers were developed as a fetus so that she remembered her mother's emotions before even being born. But then why didn't Luke also have this? Another inconsistency that could have been fixed in the script for episode III.

 

[Scalito]

I buy Vader throwing the emperor to his death as the restoration of balance but there's also something to be said for the Jedi (particularly Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon) being overconfident in the prophecy and their ability to train anakin. Palatine, I mean Palpatine, took advantage of their arrogance on ep III. Maybe the "prophecy" was planted by the Sith in ancient times.

Here is something that bugs me much more than that. In ROTJ as Luke is leaving Dagobah to rescue Han/Leiah/Chewie, Obi-Wan's ghost says "that boy was our last hope" and Yoda says "No. There is another." A) Yoda's line should be "Another, there is"... B) in ROTS, Lucas wrote the birth of Luke and Leia with both Obi-Wan and Yoda present. So Obi-Wan should have known about Leia and her abilities and not said that line. Or rather, Lucas should have had only Yoda present at the twins' birth, have Yoda give baby Luke to Obi-Wan and baby Leia to Bail Organa separately so that only Yoda and not Obi-Wan has knowledge of Leia's existence. Then Obi-Wan('s ghost) learns about it in ROTJ.

Another thing is that in ROTJ Leia says she remembers her mother being sad, while Luke says he has no memory of his mother. What's up with that? It implies Leia was a kid or at least a small child while Padme was still alive, which is clearly not depicted in ROTS. Alternatively maybe Leia's Jedi powers were developed as a fetus so that she remembered her mother's emotions before even being born. But then why didn't Luke also have this? Another inconsistency that could have been fixed in the script for episode III.

(1) As to your last concern first---Leia says she remembers her real mother, but I've assumed her adoptive mother died at a young age and it's the adoptive mother she was speaking about. Leia didn't know about her real parentage. We don't have to assume she knew her adoptive mother wasn't her real mom.

That's how I have thought about it at least. Thought through the same thing when re-watch it recently.

(2) Maybe Obi-Wan is a misogynist and did think as well of Leia as Yoda?

(3) You're dead on about Yoda's grammar. Good call.

 

[Penfield]

This guy wrote an article trying to redeem the Prequels. It's interesting, but I also think the author takes his theory way too far. http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

Half way through he had me drinking the prequel juice, but by the end it really just made me mad that they were so bad. There really is no redeeming the prequels. The acting is terrible, dialog terrible, special effects were over the top, and they created so many inconsistencies w/ the original trilogy.

Not sure what I disliked more - the prequels or some of the garbage he added to the special editions of the original trilogy.

I think the Vader prophecy isn't much more complicated than him killing the emperor to finally bring balance back to the force. I think the whole Chosen One thing is Probably nothing more than Lucas getting a bit too biblical with his story. If these things happen in cylces how many chosen ones have there been?

I think the new trilogy will start in a time where there have not been many force users out in the galaxy (Luke maybe even in self-imposed exile), and something occurs to disturb the tranquility.

 

[CL82]

Okay, I'm clearly behind the curve here, but who prophesied about Luke and the balancing of the force thing?

Here's my issue. In the book that came out at the time of the 1st movie (#4, I guess) it talks about how the emperor had grown weak allowing the governors, like Moff Tarkin, to fill the power gap. Yet by the time the second (5th) movie rolls around the emperor is the master villain.

For what it worth, I liked the 1st (4th) movie, tolerated the next 2, and thought the last 3 pretty much sucked. What made Star Wars a great movie was some pretty simple themes and timeless themes...good triumphs over evil...and the child fantasy literary meme that I'm not this humble guy that you see, I'm secretly more and destined for great things. It worked by executing those well. Eventually this Byzantine world sprung up around that simple narrative and crushed it. Hopefully Abrams will get back that narrative and abandon the focus on the needless complicated backstory.

 

[SubbaBub]

This guy wrote an article trying to redeem the Prequels. It's interesting, but I also think the author takes his theory way too far. http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

Half way through he had me drinking the prequel juice, but by the end it really just made me mad that they were so bad. There really is no redeeming the prequels. The acting is terrible, dialog terrible, special effects were over the top, and they created so many inconsistencies w/ the original trilogy.

Not sure what I disliked more - the prequels or some of the garbage he added to the special editions of the original trilogy.

I think the Vader prophecy isn't much more complicated than him killing the emperor to finally bring balance back to the force. I think the whole Chosen One thing is Probably nothing more than Lucas getting a bit too biblical with his story. If these things happen in cylces how many chosen ones have there been?

I think the new trilogy will start in a time where there have not been many force users out in the galaxy (Luke maybe even in self-imposed exile), and something occurs to disturb the tranquility.

The prequels failed because the transformation from likeable kid to evil sith was horribly written given the limited amount of screen time. If you had nine movies to do it you might make it work, but given everything else going on in the film's it was impossible.

Anakin was introduced all wrong and too young. He should have been written as a teenage Han Solo with emotional problems. Ironically, Lucas nailed this character in American Graffiti in the form of the two racers. Ironically again, one was played by Ford. Those two should have been the two halves of Anakin's psyche.

A whole lot of things that followed would have worked a lot better with that one change. You could have seen the cynical troublemaker, working shortcuts and angles to survive his life as a slave. The pod race would make more sense as would the bet that freed him.

A preexisting rep as a bad boy ladies man would make the romance with the brilliant but sheltered queen more believable as would his resistance to personal growth.

The journey to become a good guy jedi as a veneer covering his inner pain would have been a lot less forced as would his snap turn back to self reliance and eventually evil sidekick to the Sith Lord mentor who understands him.

Basically everything would have been better to start him as a likable jerk than a clone of the Luke farm boy character.

In short ditch Jake Lloyd for Billy Zabka.

I'd love to see someone remake the prequels with this twist. Except the Zabka part.

 

[Penfield]

The prequels failed because the transformation from likeable kid to evil sith was horribly written given the limited amount of screen time. If you had nine movies to do it you might make it work, but given everything else going on in the film's it was impossible.

Anakin was introduced all wrong and too young. He should have been written as a teenage Han Solo with emotional problems. Ironically, Lucas nailed this character in American Graffiti in the form of the two racers. Ironically again, one was played by Ford. Those two should have been the two halves of Anakin's psyche.

A whole lot of things that followed would have worked a lot better with that one change. You could have seen the cynical troublemaker, working shortcuts and angles to survive his life as a slave. The pod race would make more sense as would the bet that freed him.

A preexisting rep as a bad boy ladies man would make the romance with the brilliant but sheltered queen more believable as would his resistance to personal growth.

The journey to become a good guy jedi as a veneer covering his inner pain would have been a lot less forced as would his snap turn back to self reliance and eventually evil sidekick to the Sith Lord mentor who understands him.

Basically everything would have been better to start him as a likable jerk than a clone of the Luke farm boy character.

In short ditch Jake Lloyd for Billy Zabka.

I'd love to see someone remake the prequels with this twist. Except the Zabka part.

Yes, I agree the whole thing would have worked out a lot better if they had met him as a teenager. It would have made the comparison w/ starting Luke's training too late a little more understandable, and going from child in the first movie to trying to score with Padme in the second was really weird. I also would have thrown out the immaculate conception thing, and the fact that he came from Tatooine.

Essentially the Phantom Menace was a throwaway movie, and they only had 2 left to show Anakin's actual transition to the dark side.

 

[Scalito]

Yes, I agree the whole thing would have worked out a lot better if they had met him as a teenager. It would have made the comparison w/ starting Luke's training too late a little more understandable, and going from child in the first movie to trying to score with Padme in the second was really weird. I also would have thrown out the immaculate conception thing, and the fact that he came from Tatooine.

Essentially the Phantom Menace was a throwaway movie, and they only had 2 left to show Anakin's actual transition to the dark side.

Completely agree. If you start him out as a teenager, you can parallel the formula that worked so well in the originals. The whole third movie can basically become Return of the Sith. As it is, Vader is kinda a flop as a villain.

We're told in Star Wars that Vader hunted down and killed all of the Jedi. That's badarss. I wanna see that bad guy become a bad guy. Instead, what do we get?

Vader becomes Vader three-quarters of the way through the last movie, kills some children with the help of an army, and then . . . falls into lava when fighting his first real fight. He's an afterthought in the history of the creation of the Empire. At least Darth Maul took out a real Jedi before Obi Wan gets him.

 

[Scalito]

Okay, I'm clearly behind the curve here, but who prophesied about Luke and the balancing of the force thing?

In the Phantom Menace there is talk about Toddler Vader being some prophecied savoir. He was supposed to bring balance to the force. I was speculating that maybe the Jedi got it wrong because Luke was the saviour. No matter how you swing it though, they got it wrong. Would a been better to stomp "little Annie" out like a cockroach.

 

[UCFBfan]

Come on, no one is mentioning the only good thing to come from Episode 1......Darth Maul?? Coolest Sith in the movies. Too bad Lucas screwed that up by killing him off just like he screwed up the other prequels. Another good thing to come from the first prequel, the music. Duel of Fates might be one of the top 5 scores from all 6 movies.

Just trying to find something positive from the first 3. Just under three months until we can see if they screwed up the whole saga anymore! Can't wait!!

 

[intlzncster]

In the Phantom Menace there is talk about Toddler Vader being some prophecied savoir. He was supposed to bring balance to the force. I was speculating that maybe the Jedi got it wrong because Luke was the saviour. No matter how you swing it though, they got it wrong. Would a been better to stomp "little Annie" out like a cockroach.

Well, Vader did bring balance to the force by fathering Luke.

 

[intlzncster]

The problem is that Lucas lost his fastball 15 years before The Phantom Menace came out. Would have been far better to have a younger (edgier) director go at it. Lucas tried to make the prequels like kids movies, when they would have been far better as adult (not ) offerings.

 

[Scalito]

The problem is that Lucas lost his fastball 15 years before The Phantom Menace came out. Would have been far better to have a younger (edgier) director go at it. Lucas tried to make the prequels like kids movies, when they would have been far better as adult (not smut) offerings.

Smut woulda been okay too.

 

[August_West]

Smut woulda been okay too.

I would have liked to have seen Natalie Portman in a slave leia type scene for sure.

 

[lavuuk153]

The only good thing that came from the prequels are the reviews: http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/ Don't start one unless you have 90 minutes of free time...it's totally worth it.

However, I did watch the film where someone took all 3 and made one movie...it actually didn't suck.

 

[Penfield]

The problem is that Lucas lost his fastball 15 years before The Phantom Menace came out. Would have been far better to have a younger (edgier) director go at it. Lucas tried to make the prequels like kids movies, when they would have been far better as adult (not smut) offerings.

This was one of the biggest issues w/ how the prequels were made. When Lucas was working on the original trilogy he was surrounded by a group of people that were not afraid to give him constructive criticism. Ideas were shot down and scripts were rewritten. ESB and ROTJ were not directed by Lucas. By the time the prequels rolled around people were so desperate for more Star Wars movies that they gave him complete creative control of the new movies. If he had other directors and writers involved we probably could have expected better movies.

I am actually not sure if Lucas ever had a fastball. He was a great ideas guy, but usually needed some help getting things executed.

 

[John]

I would have liked to have seen Natalie Portman in a slave leia type scene for sure.

you could make a trilogy just based on that.

 

[RonnyFrancis]

Come on, no one is mentioning the only good thing to come from Episode 1.Darth Maul?? Coolest Sith in the movies. Too bad Lucas screwed that up by killing him off just like he screwed up the other prequels. Another good thing to come from the first prequel, the music. Duel of Fates might be one of the top 5 scores from all 6 movies.

Just trying to find something positive from the first 3. Just under three months until we can see if they screwed up the whole saga anymore! Can't wait!!

Glad I read this thread just because you mentioned duel of the fates! Forgot about that song.