Papi….

[Husky25]

You have proof ARod did it? Never tested positive………..LOL

A-Rod is a strawman. I thought were talking about Ortiz?? But now that you bring it up, I'll burn down this particular strawman for you. A-rod held a press conference in Miami during spring training in 2009 about a week after admitting to Peter Gammons on ESPN that he was a user. You don't need a test result when you have 2 confessions.

Here's the Press conference. It's over 5 minutes long but the confession occurs within the first :38. From this link, you'll be able to find the Gammons interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kwLszCGc8Vg

I can't wait to be told that I shouldn't believe everything I watch on TV...

Palmeiro was the same size for his career too, Braun too….your point is? "Irresponsible" is being a fan and not seeing or admitting the obvious. But then again why would you he's on your team. I may fight for him too if I were you but the point is everyone outside of The Nation sees what you don't………

That's the whole bleeping point!!! It's not obvious!!!! I can understand your point of view. I just don't agree with key parts of it. This is what I know. The bold is on what I do not agree with you. "Irresponsible" is treating your opinion as fact and chiding all others who do not share it.

1. Ortiz's name was leaked off the "Sealed" 2003 PED list.
2. The DH is a bona fide baseball position.
3. A DH-primary player will eventually get elected to the Hall of Fame.
4. Ortiz has the offense numbers, postseason performance, and notoriety to be elected.
5. Ortiz's suspected PED use may keep him from being that DH-primary to be elected.

For all practical purposes in the context of this board, I've held this point of view forever. The proof is in my content to this board. It's open. Go ahead and look.

 

[kibblesnbits]

No the CFer…………would you like to elaborate on the player you are thinking about? Lord knows I'm not saying HE didn't but going after a guy who averaged just over 12 a year?

I tend to think that a guy who averaged about 15 at best at the Hefty Bag of a stadium then came to Boston to join forces with Manny and suddenly went 31,41,47,54 the next 4 would be more a focus for you don't you think?

I was just intrigued by your incredible ability to determine who is and is not juicing. You threw Gomez under the bus, but he hit more minor league home runs in far fewer at bats than Jeter (who went from 2 HRs in AAA to 10 the next season in the big leagues and peaked in the 20s). Ortiz, BTW, hit 5x as many as Jeter in 10% more minor league at bats.

We know some players were juicing but, for the most part, we don't know who. Nomar went from a scrawny kid to a stud so I've been told repeatedly by Yankee fans that he juiced. Could very well be, but I don't know for sure. Yet those same fans are aghast when you tell them to compare Jeter''s minor league record/build with their major league counterparts. Heck Ellsbury exploded for HRs one year at a level he didn't even approach before or after. Was he juicing -I don't know, but I can tell you he was on virtually every pitch that year and as far as I know steroids don't help pitch recognition and timing.

So for all your proclamations about what everyone knows, it's still just your speculation. Frankly, I don't think Jeter was juicing, but since a 5 HR guy could go to 20 with the right chemistry, we'll never be sure about him either.

 

[mauconnfan]

Just a funny ignorant group of fans………that's all!!!

Everyone is clean who ever put a Sox uni on I get it…….next…….not worth talking to you guys, seriously it's funny as hell.

Baseball sucks anyway let's get to October in Storrs

 

[kibblesnbits]

Ignorant is someone making definitive statements that he can't support (despite your assertions no one has ever identified what substance was cited in Ortiz purported positive test) then using ridiculous strawman arguments (please show me where anyone said Ortiz was definitely clean) to minimize others. What we do know factually from MLB is that 8 of the 104 players that tested positive in 2003 were for substances that weren't banned until a few years later. Furthermore, the player's association said that 13 out of the remaining 96 positive samples were in dispute. Given that Barry Bonds sample was not on the list but was later found to test positive it seems fair to question the quality of the testing (which was never intended for public release or individual punitive actions anyway).

 

[mauconnfan]

Ignorant is someone making definitive statements that he can't support (despite your assertions no one has ever identified what substance was cited in Ortiz purported positive test) then using ridiculous strawman arguments (please show me where anyone said Ortiz was definitely clean) to minimize others. What we do know factually from MLB is that 8 of the 104 players that tested positive in 2003 were for substances that weren't banned until a few years later. Furthermore, the player's association said that 13 out of the remaining 96 positive samples were in dispute. Given that Barry Bonds sample was not on the list but was later found to test positive it seems fair to question the quality of the testing (which was never intended for public release or individual punitive actions anyway).

Again, the only people who would argue Papi's case would be you guys, it's that simple. He's a cheater, you elect to think otherwise while most outside of the Nation (lol) believe you can put him right along side Sosa, Bonds , Manny (oh yeah he was alongside him) and ARod……..but hey no one knows for sure……..you're right! Keep the faith……………after all he's such a sweet guy!

 

[kibblesnbits]

Well, major league baseball actually argues his case by factually admitting that being on the 2003 list does not indicate that a player violated any rules and that the testing was not done with procedures necessary for individual punishment. However, I wouldn't expect a Yankee fan, desperate to attack a rival that's been more successful over Ortiz' career, to be in any way objective. Might Ortiz be guilty, sure, but so could any other player since fewer than 10% of players that tested positive have been identified. Furthermore, if Ortiz' 10 years of clean tests under the officially sanctioned enforcement program are to be ignored, then no player (other than the 40 or so MLB players that have been suspended for positive tests), including Derek Jeter and his changing body type, should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[mauconnfan]

Well, major league baseball actually argues his case by factually admitting that being on the 2003 list does not indicate that a player violated any rules and that the testing was not done with procedures necessary for individual punishment. However, I wouldn't expect a Yankee fan, desperate to attack a rival that's been more successful over Ortiz' career, to be in any way objective. Might Ortiz be guilty, sure, but so could any other player since fewer than 10% of players that tested positive have been identified. Furthermore, if Ortiz' 10 years of clean tests under the officially sanctioned enforcement program are to be ignored, then no player (other than the 40 or so MLB players that have been suspended for positive tests), including Derek Jeter and his changing body type, should be given the benefit of the doubt.

PLEASE, you're so screwed up it's pitiful………..I wouldn't expect a RED SOX fan to admit to his cheating either…….congrats you have joined the Nation at it's finest and that is pitiful!!!

 

[kibblesnbits]

Actually what is so pathetic is why this is so important to a Yankee fan that he has to call anyone that questions his scientifically false declarations of absolute knowledge to be screwed up and pitiful.

 

[mauconnfan]

You're right what was I thinking……..everything regarding the Sox is scientifically false. I must be a dope? LOL………..only fans like you would be part of a Nation after all. Funny …...

 

[kibblesnbits]

Nope, only when you claim to know with certainty something that the people involved (i.e. major league baseball) says is not certain. Not only did some players get on the list for things that were not banned (and others for banned non-steroid substances), but since 2003 was only supposed to be a survey test used to identify whether there was a problem, it had no provisions for appeals, duplicate retesting, etc. that are required before you can conclude anything about a particular player "cheating." In fact, Ortiz and the other players on the list weren't even notified of what substance was allegedly in their sample yet you falsely stated that he was listed as having used steroids.

I've readily admitted that Ortiz might have been guilty, but you seem incapable of acknowledging that your statement of absolute certainty could ever be wrong. Meanwhile, in the intervening 10 years many players (including Manny, Braun, Melky, et al) have been caught via testing and others such as ARod, Bonds, Pettite, et al have been identified in legal documents. So far, no testing or investigative program actually designed to catch cheaters has ensnared Ortiz.

P.S. Lab tests do come back with inaccurate results. I used to give blood several times per year. About 20 years ago I received a letter saying that I had tested positive for hepatitis and could no longer donate. I've been tested many times over the years before and after without ever having a corroborating test. Even the Red Cross admits that it was overwhelmingly likely to have been a false positive, but they have no procedure for restoring someone to the donor pool once declared tainted. In this case the losers from an inaccurate test are those that need blood.

 

[zyron]

Nope, only when you claim to know with certainty something that the people involved (i.e. major league baseball) says is not certain. Not only did some players get on the list for things that were not banned (and others for banned non-steroid substances), but since 2003 was only supposed to be a survey test used to identify whether there was a problem, it had no provisions for appeals, duplicate retesting, etc. that are required before you can conclude anything about a particular player "cheating." In fact, Ortiz and the other players on the list weren't even notified of what substance was allegedly in their sample yet you falsely stated that he was listed as having used steroids.

Hilarious, every single other person's name that came out on that list is accepted as a steroid user. But Papi is innocent?

Well, major league baseball actually argues his case by factually admitting that being on the 2003 list does not indicate that a player violated any rules and that the testing was not done with procedures necessary for individual punishment. However, I wouldn't expect a Yankee fan, desperate to attack a rival that's been more successful over Ortiz' career, to be in any way objective. Might Ortiz be guilty, sure, but so could any other player since fewer than 10% of players that tested positive have been identified. Furthermore, if Ortiz' 10 years of clean tests under the officially sanctioned enforcement program are to be ignored, then no player (other than the 40 or so MLB players that have been suspended for positive tests), including Derek Jeter and his changing body type, should be given the benefit of the doubt.

And this is the most laughable BS I have ever read. ARod never once failed a MLB drug test besides the one that Papi did too, I guess he is clean as well according to you.

 

[mauconnfan]

Nope, only when you claim to know with certainty something that the people involved (i.e. major league baseball) says is not certain. Not only did some players get on the list for things that were not banned (and others for banned non-steroid substances), but since 2003 was only supposed to be a survey test used to identify whether there was a problem, it had no provisions for appeals, duplicate retesting, etc. that are required before you can conclude anything about a particular player "cheating." In fact, Ortiz and the other players on the list weren't even notified of what substance was allegedly in their sample yet you falsely stated that he was listed as having used steroids.

I've readily admitted that Ortiz might have been guilty, but you seem incapable of acknowledging that your statement of absolute certainty could ever be wrong. Meanwhile, in the intervening 10 years many players (including Manny, Braun, Melky, et al) have been caught via testing and others such as ARod, Bonds, Pettite, et al have been identified in legal documents. So far, no testing or investigative program actually designed to catch cheaters has ensnared Ortiz.

P.S. Lab tests do come back with inaccurate results. I used to give blood several times per year. About 20 years ago I received a letter saying that I had tested positive for hepatitis and could no longer donate. I've been tested many times over the years before and after without ever having a corroborating test. Even the Red Cross admits that it was overwhelmingly likely to have been a false positive, but they have no procedure for restoring someone to the donor pool once declared tainted. In this case the losers from an inaccurate test are those that need blood.

Then ARod is innocent too as zyron said……..LOL……..now you're even using the damn Red Cross in your arguments. A desperate soul I would say out to keep his favorite Papi clean……….oh yeah they never caught Bagwell either, they never caught quite a few and there's many with new products which go without being caught. And I have said in the past maybe Jeter does, maybe you're very own Pedey does……..who the hell knows. What I do know is when a guy loses his swing at 34-35 years old and can't catch up to an 89 MPH "heater" it doesn;t come back suddenly without the help of some magic cause that's for sure….he was DONE, through and then POOF he's back………leave this alone, you look stupid. He's a great hitter in an era where greatness is a gift from pharmacists………there's a lot of them no shame in what he's done!

 

[kibblesnbits]

Then ARod is innocent too as zyron said……..LOL……..now you're even using the damn Red Cross in your arguments. A desperate soul I would say out to keep his favorite Papi clean……….oh yeah they never caught Bagwell either, they never caught quite a few and there's many with new products which go without being caught. And I have said in the past maybe Jeter does, maybe you're very own Pedey does……..who the hell knows. What I do know is when a guy loses his swing at 34-35 years old and can't catch up to an 89 MPH "heater" it doesn;t come back suddenly without the help of some magic cause that's for sure….he was DONE, through and then POOF he's back………leave this alone, you look stupid. He's a great hitter in an era where greatness is a gift from pharmacists………there's a lot of them no shame in what he's done!

Are you always so arrogant and obnoxious when you have to base arguments on what you "know" rather than on facts? Were you referring to when Ortiz lost his bat speed five full years after the test you know so little about that you said it found steroids when the substance was never disclosed to anyone - even the player? Of course you failed to mention Ortiz was recovering from a serious wrist injury just like Mark Texeira is now at 34 - a year older than Papi was when he first came back from his injury. I guess you believe Texeira's recent homerun streak must be due to PEDs too. Your lack of recognition that your unsubstantiated accusations would be equally applicable to your own team is really pretty funny....and sad.

As for A-Rod, he not only admitted his guilt while throwing one of his own relatives under the bus, but there was first person testimony in legal and medical documents and by participants in his arbitration hearing regarding PED use. Even his own phone records contained evidence on his PED regimen. There are no such admissions or testimony by anyone against Ortiz. If that is your best defense then you really have a reading comprehension problem.

 

[zyron]

As for A-Rod, he not only admitted his guilt while throwing one of his own relatives under the bus, but there was first person testimony in legal and medical documents and by participants in his arbitration hearing regarding PED use. Even his own phone records contained evidence on his PED regimen. There are no such admissions or testimony by anyone against Ortiz. If that is your best defense then you really have a reading comprehension problem.

NO Sh^% ARod is guilty, can't get anything by you. Guess the point that ARod tested clean all these years too wasn't clear enough for you (Cause Ortiz has tested clean for 10 years since he failed and that should be proof according to you).

 

[kibblesnbits]

NO Sh^% ARod is guilty, can't get anything by you. Guess the point that ARod tested clean all these years too wasn't clear enough for you (Cause Ortiz has tested clean for 10 years since he failed and that should be proof according to you).

You clearly don't understand the definition of proof since I've said repeatedly that Ortiz may be guilty but there is just no definitive evidence. In short, I've never cited his test results as proof of innocence, but rather as contributing evidence that casts doubt on blanket assertions from fanatics like Mau when they say, "Damn the lack of proof, I just know he did."

If there wasn't so much direct testimony and documentation against A-Rod I would say the same about him. To my knowledge he hasn't tested positive and, therefore, would deserve the benefit of the doubt if there wasn't that awkward problem of a confession followed by his dealer testifying during the arbitration hearing. If you can find similar evidence against Ortiz then I'll ignore his passed tests too.

Or, alternatively, we can ignore the fact that some players like Manny, Melky and Braun have actually tested positive and just assume all players are guilty and beating the system. Then we can give no credence to anyone's on the field or pissing in a cup performance for the last decade and shut down the HoF. Too bad, because Mariano's and Derek's inductions were going to be great parties. But as Mau pointed out, players don't recover from a decline in bat speed like Jeter had a few years back without PEDs.

 

[zyron]

You clearly don't understand the definition of proof since I've said repeatedly that Ortiz may be guilty but there is just no definitive evidence. In short, I've never cited his test results as proof of innocence, but rather as contributing evidence that casts doubt on blanket assertions from fanatics like Mau when they say, "Damn the lack of proof, I just know he did."

If there wasn't so much direct testimony and documentation against A-Rod I would say the same about him. To my knowledge he hasn't tested positive and, therefore, would deserve the benefit of the doubt if there wasn't that awkward problem of a confession followed by his dealer testifying during the arbitration hearing. If you can find similar evidence against Ortiz then I'll ignore his passed tests too.

Or, alternatively, we can ignore the fact that some players like Manny, Melky and Braun have actually tested positive and just assume all players are guilty and beating the system. Then we can give no credence to anyone's on the field or pissing in a cup performance for the last decade and shut down the HoF. Too bad, because Mariano's and Derek's inductions were going to be great parties. But as Mau pointed out, players don't recover from a decline in bat speed like Jeter had a few years back without PEDs.

You mean like a failed steroid test. That kind of proof? Which Ortiz failed in 2003.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Are you guys lazy or clueless? Even the guys that leaked tests which were never designed or controlled in a manner to support allegations against any player, didn't release the specific results. Of the 104 players named, 8 did not violate any rules because they were "guilty" of taking substances that weren't banned until a few years later. 13 were disputed results (many tests aren't directly for a substance but a related indicator that may have multiple causes) and because the tests weren't conducted for enforcement there were no backup samples and tests. None of the 104 was told what they tested positive for (steroids are just one possibility) nor was it reported so only the uninformed or a liar can say they "know" how a particular player tested. Even the players don't know what was allegedly found in their sample. Lastly, unlike in an enforcement scenario, none of the players could appeal or have reports or samples evaluated by their own experts.

The funny thing is that if his baseball people had listened to George in 2003 you and your compatriot wouldn't have to be so blindly angry and jealous that you'd continuously claim as fact something that is not factual but what you merely hope to be true. It may be true, but no amount of arrogance or tired wiseass remarks can make it a fact.

 

[mauconnfan]

Are you guys lazy or clueless? Even the guys that leaked tests which were never designed or controlled in a manner to support allegations against any player, didn't release the specific results. Of the 104 players named, 8 did not violate any rules because they were "guilty" of taking substances that weren't banned until a few years later. 13 were disputed results (many tests aren't directly for a substance but a related indicator that may have multiple causes) and because the tests weren't conducted for enforcement there were no backup samples and tests. None of the 104 was told what they tested positive for (steroids are just one possibility) nor was it reported so only the uninformed or a liar can say they "know" how a particular player tested. Even the players don't know what was allegedly found in their sample. Lastly, unlike in an enforcement scenario, none of the players could appeal or have reports or samples evaluated by their own experts.

The funny thing is that if his baseball people had listened to George in 2003 you and your compatriot wouldn't have to be so blindly angry and jealous that you'd continuously claim as fact something that is not factual but what you merely hope to be true. It may be true, but no amount of arrogance or tired wiseass remarks can make it a fact.

Guess what we're not lazy or clueless but one thing we have realized is you need a reality check. Do yourself a favor kibby take those red colored glasses off for a while and take a look around. You're really missing the picture.

Funny thing is you continue to say "angry and jealous"…..about what? Explain that one to me…..of Papi? hahahaha why? Of the Red Sox? Why?………….time to look around and catch a dose of reality. It's not just Papi we're talking about here, it's the Yanks and their championship teams, the Sox and theirs, so many others………..but if you wish to continue to throw those blinders on, have at it!!!

 

[kibblesnbits]

I'm too happy over the Ollie and Samuelson news to care about a bitter Yankee fan (when you have to resort to the "look at all our championships" argument in a thread about an opposing player you've clearly got nothing intelligent left to say). Ironically, the one time George didn't get his way apparently sent some Yankee fans into a funk. Maybe the baseball people thought he'd already lost his marbles, but imagine how many HRs (and even more championships) Papi would have delivered with Yankee Stadium's bandbox RF. Tough break.

Oh well. I'm off to count future championships in Storrs. Get out of your rut and join me.

 

[mauconnfan]

I'm too happy over the Ollie and Samuelson news to care about a bitter Yankee fan (when you have to resort to the "look at all our championships" argument in a thread about an opposing player you've clearly got nothing intelligent left to say). Ironically, the one time George didn't get his way apparently sent some Yankee fans into a funk. Maybe the baseball people thought he'd already lost his marbles, but imagine how many HRs (and even more championships) Papi would have delivered with Yankee Stadium's bandbox RF. Tough break.

Oh well. I'm off to count future championships in Storrs. Get out of your rut and join me.

Dude I have been there and joined you way before you could imagine as a Husky fan, Samuelson? Nice but who really cares about the women, good for them though it's a nice win……bitter Yankee fan? You're the joke here kibbles not me……..live with it and grow up at some point about the "bitterness" of Yanks/Sox…….why would I be better I root for the best organization in baseball, sign me up dude!

OMG I had to rethink this how stupid you really are…..tried to be nice but you're a dope when it comes to baseball kibby………."look at our championships"? Do you know me? NO YOU DON'T……so leave that crap on your lap wise a***……..I became a Yankee fan in the mid 60's well after the championships and loved a lot of players you wouldn't know because you a blinders type Sox fans, that's obvious……..I could care less about Yogi and Mickey and Rober and Babe and Lou……we're still BETTER than you will ever be and now you need t accept that. Even the lull I saw when I grew up with Jake Gibbs, Jerry Kenney, Stan Bahnsen, Horace Clark and people you have no idea about,, we still win more than your guys so who the fk is "bitter" here?

Give this up you look like an idiot…….go root for the women that's where you belong!! Bitter about Papi? Wow you had along way to go……..but you're a funny person, dude, chick or whatever?

 

[mauconnfan]

I guess you can run the bases like a slug and still be a HOFer too huh? That was awful, baseball 101 as they say but I guess not for the Papster……..funny stuff from a so-called baseball player!

 

[Danzz]

I guess you can run the bases like a slug and still be a HOFer too huh? That was awful, baseball 101 as they say but I guess not for the Papster……..funny stuff from a so-called baseball player!