Papi….

[mauconnfan]

Has there ever been any other great hitters who have questioned hits and errors as much as this guy?

http://nesn.com/2014/05/david-ortiz-yu-darvishs-no-hitter-should-have-ended-in-seventh-video/

Listen rule or no rule, 2 MLers camping under a pop up is an error……catch the fn ball……..and for him to whine yet again about a scoring decision………a little sickening!

 

[Waquoit]

Listen rule or no rule, 2 MLers camping under a pop up is an error...

Since when? Fly balls that fall in the outfield untouched have always been called a hit. Try again, Yankee fan.

 

[G0UCONN]

Balls that fall in without being touched because two guys miscommunicate are always hits---cheap but hits. In all levels. That said, I had no problem with the error call in that situation.

I bet nearly every hitter questions calls. We rarely hear about it but when you hit for a living and your paycheck is based on stats etc...it matters. Alot.

 

[Husky25]

Fly balls that do not touch a person or glove have generally been ruled hits in the same vein that you can't assume a double play (i.e. if a throw to 1st pulls the player off the bag, it is not an error as long as at least one out is recorded).

This one happened to be in the middle of a perfect game attempt. It was absolutely an attempt by a hometown official scorer (who hadn't ruled on the play for quite some time) to keep the no-hitter alive. Ultimately, the no-hitter was broken up, so the point is moot. In fact, if the play was ruled a hit, Rangers' fans (Why do you care, Mau? Is it only because he plays for Boston?) should blame the two fielders for putting Darvish's No-hit bid is jeopardy.

Whether Ortiz hits .293, .302, or .231 at the end of the year will not affect his place in history. Whether he is inducted into the Hall of Fame or not doesn't change the fact that he is one of the most fear hitters in a clutch situation from 2003-2014 and has a minimum of three World Series rings over that time span.

 

[mauconnfan]

I know just muddying the waters………………they always have been but should NOT be - change the rule it's an error………..it's baseball catch the ball. If there's a pop up in the infield grass and a 2nd baseman thinks he's under it but misses it it's an error!

No matter Papi has always whined about hits and that's really lame for a hitter……..hey I have an idea, run a ground ball out!

 

[G0UCONN]

Whether Ortiz hits .293, .302, or .231 at the end of the year will not affect his place in history. Whether he is inducted into the Hall of Fame or not doesn't change the fact that he is one of the most fear hitters in a clutch situation from 2003-2014 and has a minimum of three World Series rings over that time span.

He is a HOFer. No brainer. Only people against are haters and Yankees fans --- for obvious reasons.

 

[mauconnfan]

He is a HOFer. No brainer. Only people against are haters and Yankees fans --- for obvious reasons.

I know I'm a hater and a Yankee fan so I guess that would put me right where you assume………and you are 100% correct.

Unless they start a new wing for DH's you need a glove to get in……….or at least run out ground balls……..great clutch hitter but there are better BASEBALL players who aren't in who impacted the game in the field and over all more than him……….sorry he may get in but not at all deserved. Only a Red Sox fan would not understand the argument!!

 

[Husky25]

I know just muddying the waters………………they always have been but should NOT be - change the rule it's an error………..it's baseball catch the ball. If there's a pop up in the infield grass and a 2nd baseman thinks he's under it but misses it it's an error!

No matter Papi has always whined about hits and that's really lame for a hitter……..hey I have an idea, run a ground ball out!

Generally, that has not been ruled an error for a variety of reasons, such as hitting a roof or catwalk, fielder loses it in sun, wind, infield fly rule, whathaveyou? Is it an error if on a bunt, swinging or otherwise, the third baseman thinks the ball will roll foul but stays fair?

 

[Husky25]

He is a HOFer. No brainer. Only people against are haters and Yankees fans --- for obvious reasons.

Speaking as a 30+year Red Sox fan, I don't know if he is or not. He would be the first DH-primary player to do be elected and there is a taint over the leaked foreign substance list in 1006, but his offensive credentials are undeniable. I think if they have leaked one or two names off that list, they should be required to release all of the names and the substance for which they tested positive. It's not fair to those who's names were leaked. It's borderline slanderous. It's also a double standard to those players if the foreign substance is amphetamines. There are leaks after the fact Willie Mays popped greenies and drank "Red Juice." How did Mickey Mantle perform to that level he did every day? Mike Schmidt admitted that, "A couple times in [his] career [he] bit on it." Are these suspected drug users disqualified after the fact and given the boot?

I know I'm a hater and a Yankee fan so I guess that would put me right where you assume………and you are 100% correct.

Unless they start a new wing for DH's you need a glove to get in……….or at least run out ground balls……..great clutch hitter but there are better BASEBALL players who aren't in who impacted the game in the field and over all more than him……….sorry he may get in but not at all deserved. Only a Red Sox fan would not understand the argument!!

I'd be able to understand your point a little better IF (and only if) you were a fan of a National League team, but you are not. You are a Yankee fan. The Designated Hitter has been a bona fide position in the American League, in which your favorite team plays and has also taken advantage, for 41 years. It is also a position that is used at all levels of the game. They don't have build a new wing in Cooperstown, because those who play the DH are baseball players. It's not going away and if you don't like it, then I suggest you become a fan of a National League team. You need to deal with that somehow, but creating strawman arguments against Ortiz is really not the way to do it.

 

[G0UCONN]

Unless they start a new wing for DH's you need a glove to get in……….or at least run out ground balls……..great clutch hitter but there are better BASEBALL players who aren't in who impacted the game in the field and over all more than him……….sorry he may get in but not at all deserved. Only a Red Sox fan would not understand the argument!!

So DHs are ineligible? Despite their greatness...off the charts clutch hitting, leading team to multi WS championships? That is beyond goofy.

How far does the goofiness go?

No closers too?---who are almost always broken down starters who couldn't start and were only good for 1 inning because they had 1 or 2 pitches? Mariano Rivera is out? I say he belongs in the first ballot---despite fact he closed because he couldnt hack it as a starter and became a 1 inning specialist.

How about a guy who hit but s ucked in the field? There are alot of butchers in the field who are in. To name one----Reggie Jackson is in and he s ucked in the field and was an hated by almost all who played with him, plus Ortiz was a better hitter than him. But he is in and Ortiz is out? Really?

Is Cano now ineligible because he jogged on some groundballs?

The list is endless...

Ortiz issue will be suspicion of PEDs---not his play. Never suspended or caught for it but on the list of "probably did it". Not fair as strong suspicion should not be enough but at least I get that argument. All other arguments against him for the HOF are dumb. As a player---He is a no brainer.

 

[Deepster]

So DHs are ineligible? Despite their greatness...off the charts clutch hitting, leading team to multi WS championships? That is beyond goofy.

How far does the goofiness go?

No closers too?---who are almost always broken down starters who couldn't start and were only good for 1 inning because they had 1 or 2 pitches? Mariano Rivera is out? I say he belongs in the first ballot---despite fact he closed because he couldnt hack it as a starter and became a 1 inning specialist.

How about a guy who hit but s ucked in the field? There are alot of butchers in the field who are in. To name one----Reggie Jackson is in and he s ucked in the field and was an hated by almost all who played with him, plus Ortiz was a better hitter than him. But he is in and Ortiz is out? Really?

Is Cano now ineligible because he jogged on some groundballs?

The list is endless...

Ortiz issue will be suspicion of PEDs---not his play. Never suspended or caught for it but on the list of "probably did it". I get that argument. All other arguments against him in the HOF are dumb. He is a no brainer.

Wow. It is certainly NOT a no brainer.

Doesn't have any of the hallmark "automatic" numbers. His HR totals are inflated with 47 and 54 in 2005/2006, which is dead in the middle of the steroid era. No other seasons approach those totals. Never played the field. Frank Thomas is the only guy in who was primarily a DH and he played 19 seasons and had 2 MVP awards.

 

[G0UCONN]

Speaking as a 30+year Red Sox fan, I don't know if he is or not. He would be the first DH-primary player to do be elected and there is a taint over the leaked foreign substance list in 1006, but his offensive credentials are undeniable. I think if they have leaked one or two names off that list, they should be required to release all of the names and the substance for which they tested positive. It's not fair to those who's names were leaked. It's borderline slanderous. It's also a double standard to those players if the foreign substance is amphetamines. There are leaks after the fact Willie Mays popped greenies and drank "Red Juice." How did Mickey Mantle perform to that level he did every day? Mike Schmidt admitted that, "A couple times in [his] career [he] bit on it." Are these suspected drug users disqualified after the fact and given the boot?

Good point. I don't know if his name was ever leaked---think it was just rumor he was on it. And it would be no surprise for sure.

Every era has all time greats and HOFers where you can undercut their accomplishments with various things.

Hell----arguably anybody who played their careers without having to compete against black guys is tainted. Those same guys/greats never had to play at night or face relief pitchers.

And you are right----not sure about roids back then but players used drugs for years to help them get an edge...greenies etc.

 

[G0UCONN]

Wow. It is certainly NOT a no brainer.

Doesn't have any of the hallmark "automatic" numbers. His HR totals are inflated with 47 and 54 in 2005/2006, which is dead in the middle of the steroid era. No other seasons approach those totals. Never played the field. Frank Thomas is the only guy in who was primarily a DH and he played 19 seasons and had 2 MVP awards.

You think Thomas was clean? He is every bit as suspicious as Ortiz and did it in the steroid heyday...

Ortiz will end with something like .285 career BA, 2400+ hits, 525+ HRs, 1700+ RBIs, WS MVP, ALCS MVP...

And there has been no clutcher a hitter in October or baseball year after year in our lifetime. No Ortiz and they are still chanting 1918. Three WS championships for a team thanks to him----that matters.

 

[Husky25]

Wow. It is certainly NOT a no brainer.

Doesn't have any of the hallmark "automatic" numbers. His HR totals are inflated with 47 and 54 in 2005/2006, which is dead in the middle of the steroid era. No other seasons approach those totals. Never played the field. Frank Thomas is the only guy in who was primarily a DH and he played 19 seasons and had 2 MVP awards.

Ortiz played a fair number of games at 1B in 2003 and 2004. The Big Hurt was atrocious in the field. Ortiz may have been equally bad, had history played out that way, but history didn't have play out that way. The Red Sox had the resources and ability to sign Ortiz and another more competently fielding first baseman. How many other players are in the Hall of Fame because of the teams on which they played or by just being a nice guy as opposed to their own achievements? Yahoo names 5 in 2010. And a few more in 2011.

 

[Deepster]

WS MVP, ALCS MVP...

And there has been no clutcher a hitter in October or baseball year after year in our lifetime. No Ortiz and they are still chanting 1918. Three WS championships for a team thanks to him----that matters.

That's where we disagree. I don't think, in an HOF discussion, any of that matters one bit.

 

[Husky25]

That's where we disagree. I don't think, in an HOF discussion, any of that matters one bit.

On the contrary, I think GOUCONN definitely has an argument here. It's called the Hall of Fame, not the hall of impressive statistics (though that is the primary way a HOFer is measured.). Do you agree that there is no doubt that Reggie Jackson is a HOFer (I assume your answer is yes)? Why?

Let's just get the fact that he was an average fielder, at best.

Jackson's career ratio line (Just in case...Batting Average/On base %/BP/Slugging %/On base + SLG%) is .262/.356/.490/.846. He has 563 career HR's, which extrapolates out to 32 HR per 162 games season. Ortiz has .286/.381/.547/.938 career averages and is on pace for 36 HR's/162 games with at least 1.5 seasons left. Ortiz is number 57 on the career strikeout list, but Jackson leads the way at a Secretariat-at-the-Derby like pace. At the end of the day, Reginald Martinez Jackson is a glorified Adam Dunn at the plate during the regular season (Is Dunn, who is a 3 true outcomes hitter, a HoFer)?

So again, for what reason is Reggie Jackson "famous," thereby earning a place in the National Baseball Hall of Fame an Museum?

Answer:
1) Allegedly being the straw that stirs the drink in the Bronx Zoo.
2) 3 pitches, 3 Home Runs.

Conclusion? Post season heroics matter.

 

[Deepster]

On the contrary, I think GOUCONN definitely has an argument here. It's called the Hall of Fame, not the hall of impressive statistics (though that is the primary way a HOFer is measured.). Do you agree that there is no doubt that Reggie Jackson is a HOFer (I assume your answer is yes)? Why?

Let's just get the fact that he was an average fielder, at best.

Jackson's career ratio line (Just in case...Batting Average/On base %/BP/Slugging %/On base + SLG%) is .262/.356/.490/.846. He has 563 career HR's, which extrapolates out to 32 HR per 162 games season. Ortiz has .286/.381/.547/.938 career averages and is on pace for 36 HR's/162 games with at least 1.5 seasons left. Ortiz is number 57 on the career strikeout list, but Jackson leads the way at a Secretariat-at-the-Derby like pace. At the end of the day, Reginald Martinez Jackson is a glorified Adam Dunn at the plate during the regular season (Is Dunn, who is a 3 true outcomes hitter, a HoFer)?

So again, for what reason is Reggie Jackson "famous," thereby earning a place in the National Baseball Hall of Fame an Museum?

Answer:
1) Allegedly being the straw that stirs the drink in the Bronx Zoo.
2) 3 pitches, 3 Home Runs.

Conclusion? Post season heroics matter.

You really think Reggie Jackson is in the HOF because of his 3 HR game?

The guy hit 562 HR's in an era where that still meant something. And he did it playing the field.

 

[G0UCONN]

Jackson was a butcher in the field.

And he had 100 RBIs like three times in his entire career.

and his HOF plaque declares him Mr. October. How you play postseason matters.

 

[Husky25]

You really think Reggie Jackson is in the HOF because of his 3 HR game?

The guy hit 562 HR's in an era where that still meant something. And he did it playing the field.

I said GOUCONN has an argument.

Jackson played 20 years and was what is known as a "stat accumulator" in the regular season. Back when the 2014 ballot was being submitted, there were plenty on this board who were critical of being stat accumulators, when staying healthy, being focued and/or playing through pain is absolutely a skill, just like making solid contact on a curveball. By comparison, Jackson is Gary Sheffield. He is Fred McGriff. He is Jim Thome. All three have very respectable stats, but are they HoFers? Jackson sets himself apart by being Mr. October and for whiffing more times than any player since they started to keep records.

McGriff has been on the ballot for 5 years and received 11% of the vote, but his total went down from 2013. Sheffield is on the ballot this up coming year and Thome isn't eligible until 2017.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Few players have been elected to the HoF primarily on their fielding and they were mostly up the middle players (e.g. Ozzie Smith, Bill Mazerowski, etc.). On the other hand, quite a few players have been elected based on their bats and despite their fielding (or at best they were mediocre fielders). Generally those guys are power hitters (Rice, Killebrew, etc.), but it could be argued that some would have been even more valuable if they didn't play in the field. The precedent has been set. You don't have to be a 5 tool player to be in the HoF. Why should a guy that's a tremendous hitter but didn't subject us to weak fielding be kept out of the Hall.

 

[mauconnfan]

Jackson was a butcher……..not at all a good fielder I agree……..but he played out there. How many times did the Sox try to get an extra outfielder because they figured Big Papi could play first and with that add an extra position player? NEVER……he's awful and not an all around baseball player The "Closer" vs DH is weak as they are pitchers, different variables.

He is not a HOFer unless you're a Sox fan…….

 

[G0UCONN]

Jackson was not an all around player (awful OFer) and not close to the all around hitter Ortiz is...yet he is in and no one questions it.

The closer vs. DH is a good comparison. Both specialists who are key to the game. Both have become huge parts of it. To dismiss the DH you also need to dismiss the closer which I don't agree with.

Ortiz is a no brainer HOFer. It is not really debatable player wise except for the PEDs suspicion part.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Jackson was a butcher……..not at all a good fielder I agree……..but he played out there. How many times did the Sox try to get an extra outfielder because they figured Big Papi could play first and with that add an extra position player? NEVER……he's awful and not an all around baseball player The "Closer" vs DH is weak as they are pitchers, different variables.

He is not a HOFer unless you're a Sox fan…….

A closer is actually a reasonable analogy. Closers almost never have to face a hitter twice or pitch more than one inning (and only 60-70 innings per year) so they can go all out - often with s single dominant pitch such as River's cutter, Sutter‘s splitter or Hoffman's changeup. Even the best closers are actually often limited pitchers that do a single thing extremely well, much like a DH.

 

[mauconnfan]

It's a good debate no doubt. My take is grab a glove because it's called the "Baseball" HOF not the DH HOF…………growing up baseball was meant to be fielding, hitting, running and throwing, in case you guys haven't noticed he basically does one of them………..he doesn't run unless he's forced to! For this Sox fans who ever dare to throw Cano under the bus for not hustling and then proclaim this guy a HOFer, pretty funny!

 

[huskysupporter]

If Ortiz doesn't belong in the hall, neither does Mariano Rivera.

Both were "specialists" as some would say.