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OT - Surface Pro 4 & Surface Book

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jleves

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Particularly @intlzncster

The Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book went on presale today. I pulled the trigger on the Pro 4 with the i7 processor, 8GB and 256GB SSD. As I already have a good 15" ultrabook (Dell XPS 15), something smaller and lighter made more sense and the kickstand seemed a better choice for what I want to do. Also, I wanted the better graphics on the i7 chip. I really like that they were able to keep it the same size as the Pro 3 yet increase the screen size from 12 to 12.3". Nice job. The new keyboard is supposed to be a lot better to type on.

The Surface Book is really interesting and if I needed a laptop, that would have been my choice even though it's quite a bit more expensive. The extra GPU and battery in the keyboard is really cool, although I doubt enough to play games at max settings - but certainly good enough for some serious gaming. And the fact that it's still a 2 in 1 is very cool.

Some quick early looks:
Surface Pro 4
Surface Book
Hands On with Surfaces and Phones

You can go to the Microsoft site to see pricing and options.
 

BUConn10

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Good call getting one, Microsoft's new product line is great. I recently got a Surface 3 and it's amazing, everything I was looking for in a device. The power and functionality of a full laptop in the size and form factor of an iPad.
 

jleves

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Good call getting one, Microsoft's new product line is great. I recently got a Surface 3 and it's amazing, everything I was looking for in a device. The power and functionality of a full laptop in the size and form factor of an iPad.
I had intended to get a Pro 3 but because Intel couldn't get the Broadwell chip out in time for it, I had to wait for the 4 with the Skylake CPU. The smaller manufacturing node (22nm to 14nm) should make a really good increase in battery life with a slight increase in performance. Plus the graphics should also be faster.

I really like how Microsoft is innovating the tablet/ultrabook market. It will drive Apple and everyone else to do better. Their announcements this week were unexpected in several areas and definitely have set the new mark to be bested.
 
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Yes, these devices are a game changer for us. The Phone will be as well for those who need to be productive on the go. Use the docking station and you have a PC full Windows 10. And with continuum, it will be change view based on whether your using your phone screen or a monitor
The band is hot as well.
 

intlzncster

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Thanks for the post jleves. I'll respond more in depth when I do more research. Hopefully they have these at the MS store in Boston, so I can have a look.

First glance, that Surface Book is amazing. Packed. But hot damn is it expensive. Will def have to weigh the pros/cons there. Not sure what to think about that hinge. Cool idea, sounds well constructed, but not sure about how long it will hold up or any ergonomic kinks. Also, I'm not a fan of the thing not fully closing, though that's not a deal breaker--and I get why it's done. Weight isn't too bad either.

I'm not in the market for the SP 4, as I need the laptop form factor and power. It will be my primary machine.
 

junglehusky

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I'm thinking that if you start upgrading chipset / RAM + add keyboard and docking station to a SP4, then you (meaning I) might as well pay the remaining difference of a couple hundred for the larger screen of the Surface Book. Which for me is a big factor. I was kind of an early adopter for stylus use when I got a Lenovo X200T convertible tablet (the screen doesn't detach but folds down over the keyboard) 6 years ago or so. Love using the pen for One Note and inking notations on PDFs, which is where the larger screen in portrait mode would be a big plus especially. I've been waiting for Microsoft or somebody to get the next iteration right and it really looks like they're doing that here. I'll have to reduce my retirement contributions for a few months to pay for it, of course!
 
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The price makes it a deal killer, IMO. I just can't justify the price. Also, 8GB is not enough RAM, IMO.
 

Fishy

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Given the pricing, why would anyone buy a Surface tablet?

A Surface Book with an i5, 256 GB drive and 8 GB of RAM is $1,699. That's really the bare minimum.

A Surface 4 with an i5, 256 GB drive and 8 GB of RAM and a keyboard is $1,458. It's just less useful in every direction - screen size, battery, etc.
 
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Microsoft is trying to be the new Apple.. Expensive and niche
 

intlzncster

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Microsoft is trying to be the new Apple.. Expensive and niche

But that Surface Book is very far from what Apple does. It's far from what everyone does atm.
 

intlzncster

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Update -- a small review:

Checked out the Surface Book yesterday. Overall, pretty damn nice. Quality is top notch. Feels fairly bullet proof compared to other similar machines (Macbook pro included). Solid Metal. No air gaps. Overall looks and feels really high end. Which you'd expect.

The tablet part of the computer is held on by some very powerful magnets. Doesn't move at all. You can't just pull it off; requires you to press and hold a button on the keyboard until green light pops up, then it slides off effortlessly.

Hinge is also very solid and well designed. I asked about any guarantee there, given that it is new tech, but the rep had no idea. Looks tougher than any other regular laptop hinge I've seen. And with tablet functionality on top, even moreso.

The screen itself is very very nice. Clean and crisp. Brilliant colors. Comparable to high end Mac.

The tablet is nice and thin, balanced and checks all the ergonomic boxes. Not too heavy.

The pen connects to the side of the screen very solidly via magnet. I like the pen better than a lot of the Wacom styluses. And damn, this thing functions really well as a writing device. Very clean, crisp, responsive. It was a little sensitive, but I didn't have time to adjust the settings to test it otherwise. For reference, I've used Wacom Cintiqs for industrial design purposes, and while this thing isn't remotely on that level, it is the best laptop attempt that I've tried yet, as far as drawing and design goes.

Especially appealing, is how you can attach the screen backwards, close the lid and have an 'inclined' drawing pad. It's a really nice feature to get a quasi Cintiq feel with a laptop form factor. I was worried when I saw that the laptop doesn't close flush (screen to keyboard) in order to accommodate the drawing pad feature. With the hinge, it doesn't appear to be an issue, as there is very little, if any give when I press down on the top. It does make the closed form factor a little thicker, but it's not a big deal imo.

The machine did not have Photoshop installed, so I couldn't actually test the performance on that level. But for everything I could do, the Surface was very quick, responsive, and clean, both as a tablet and a laptop.

Microsoft did not screw up with this one.

Cons:

On the higher end versions, the discrete Nvidia GPU is located in the keyboard, not the screen. So when you pop off the screen to use as a tablet, you won't have the performance of the discrete graphics card. Integrated intel HD graphics only for tablet mode.

Only offer the one bullet gray matte finish. No black.

It's mildly heavy overall in comparison to the other offerings on the market, but that's to be expected, given the performance, tech and functionality. No macbook air here.

While it starts at $1500, I'm looking at one of the higher end versions. The breakdown for those looks like:

$1900: Core i5, Nvidia GeForce dGPU, 8GB RAM, 256GB storage
$2100: Core i7, Nvidia GeForce dGPU, 8GB RAM, 256GB storage
$2700: Core i7, Nvidia GeForce dGPU, 16GB RAM, 512GB storage
$3200: Core 17, Nvidia GeForce dGPU, 16GB RAM, 1TB storage

$3200 for the top version? Yikes. That's a lot of money. To upgrade from 8g and get the 16gb/512gb version, I've got to fork over an extra 600!!

You can't add RAM later either, as the form factor requires the RAM to be soldered to the board. So you basically have to take it on the chin.
 
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They'll sell dozens.
Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing's clear - this isn't a laptop that Mr. and Mrs. Upper Middle Class are going to buy for Brittany so she can surf the web and change her facebook status to "even more bored than usual."
 

intlzncster

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@jleves

If you were looking for one sole machine, would you get this laptop? If not, what direction would you go in? Given the price points, which option would you take? Is getting the 16gb model worth the extra $600? I mean, that's a nice desktop you could put together on your own. Or the latest no contract mobile phone.

A comparable 13" Macbook Pro (16gb/512gb/i7) would cost $2200. But that doesn't haven't tablet functionality nor dGPU. Note: I don't have a tablet anymore either. So bonus in that regard.

Given my back of the napkin review above, what do you think? Note: I couldn't really test the performance, as there's only one machine in the store, no chair to sit, and usually people waiting to check it out. Nor is there much high intensive software installed on it either.
 
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jleves

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@jleves

If you were looking for one sole machine, would you get this laptop? If not, what direction would you go in? Given the price points, which option would you take? Is getting the 16gb model worth the extra $600? I mean, that's a nice desktop you could put together on your own. Or the latest no contract mobile phone.

A comparable 13" Macbook Pro (16gb/512gb/i7) would cost $2200. But that doesn't haven't tablet functionality nor dGPU. Note: I don't have a tablet anymore either. So bonus in that regard.

Given my back of the napkin review above, what do you think? Note: I couldn't really test the performance, as there's only one machine in the store, no chair to sit, and usually people waiting to check it out. Nor is there much high intensive software installed on it either.
This is a tough choice based on what I remember your requirements are (portability is important to you so you were focusing on 13" displays; you want to be able to run photoshop with good performance; this will be your primary machine, you would like to have a pen - correct me if those aren't correct).

As I see it, these are your best options (I'm not including macbook because I don't know much about it and I have no interest in running ios or running windows on it when I can find a better solution for windows for less money):

Surface Pro 4, i7-6650U 2 core 2.2GHz/3.4GHz 15 Watt, Iris Graphics 540, 48 EUs, 16GB, 512GB SSD, 2.4lbs (with keyboard) $2,329 ($1729 w/ 8GB, 256GB SSD - my choice, more later)
Surface Book, i7-6600U 2 core 2.6GHz/3.4GHz 15 Watt, HD 520 Graphics, 24 EUs + nvidia GPU 2MB, 16GB, 512GB SSD, 3.5 lbs, $2,699
Dell XPS 13, i7-6500U 2 core 2.5GHz/3.1GHz 15 Watt, HD 520 Graphics, 24 EUs, 16GB, 512GB, 2.9lbs, $1,999
Dell XPS 15, i7-6700HQ 4 core 2.6GHz/3.5GHz, 45 Watt, HD 530 Graphics, 24EUs + nvidia GTX 960M 2GB, 16GB, 512GB SSD, 4.4lbs, $1,699

Let's rule out the Surface Pro 4 - this is your primary machine and while the keyboard has gotten better, I don't think you would be happy with the screen size or keyboard as a primary machine. But it does have the best Intel graphics at the high end with Iris. That's why I'm getting it - the graphics and it's not my primary. I have a desktop for high end stuff and storing lots of stuff (plus a NAS) and I have last generation XPS15 for my mobile device.

The Surface Book with the discrete nvidia is interesting but it's a mid range mobile graphics card with 1GB of memory. You are going to stress a mid range Maxwell gpu with only 1GB of memory if you're pushing the limits of photoshop. It's expensive. It has the ability to be a good tablet and has a pen.

The XPS 13 gets excellent reviews, is very portable, but is never going to be mistaken for a high performance or graphic rendering machine. It's somewhat expensive and it has no pen. It's quite portable.

The XPS 15 is the powerhouse here. It's got a non touch screen, it's got a lower res display (although I think 1920x1080 is fine - I have no idea why they don't make a 3840x2160 with 16GB and 512 SSD), no pen and is kinda heavy - but remember 4.4lbs with this high end power was unheard of 5 years ago. With the biggest battery and lower res screen, the huge battery should last a long time even with the 45wattt CPU and discrete graphics.

So it comes down to choices you have to make. Is the 1lb less weight, pen and ability to make it a tablet important enough to spend an extra $1000? Is performance the most important thing realizing 4.4lbs isn't really that much? You need to weigh your requirements and decide on the trade offs (because there is no perfect machine for you). Performance vs Pen vs Tablet vs Weight vs Price. Your math will be different than mine.

Oh - the extra memory and SSD. I don't think the extra 8GB of memory will make a lot of difference on any of these, but if it's your primary machine for the next 3 to 5 years, I think you will need or at least be happy you got the extra 256GB of storage. 512GB of storage for a primary 5 year machine seems the minimum for me. And none of them seem to come with 512GB SSD and 8GB of storage because that would definitely be my choice. If you don't mind putting a lot of stuff in the cloud realizing you need to be connected to access things, 256GB and 8GB will be fine. I'm just not sure you want to lock into having everything in the cloud.

At the very least, if it was going to be my primary machine, I would wait for the professional reviews of the Surface Book to come out before I would plop down $2,700. Make sure it doesn't throttle, get too hot, get too loud or is just a general lump of crap. I think it will measure up, but I wouldn't pre-order.

Hope this helped you sort things out.
 
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intlzncster

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This is a tough choice based on what I remember your requirements are (portability is important to you so you were focusing on 13" displays; you want to be able to run photoshop with good performance; this will be your primary machine, you would like to have a pen - correct me if those aren't correct).

As I see it, these are your best options (I'm not including macbook because I don't know much about it and I have no interest in running ios or running windows on it when I can find a better solution for windows for less money):

Surface Pro 4, i7-6650U 2 core 2.2GHz/3.4GHz 15 Watt, Iris Graphics 540, 48 EUs, 16GB, 512GB SSD, 2.4lbs (with keyboard) $2,329 ($1729 w/ 8GB, 256GB SSD - my choice, more later)
Surface Book, i7-6600U 2 core 2.6GHz/3.4GHz 15 Watt, HD 520 Graphics, 24 EUs + nvidia GPU 2MB, 16GB, 512GB SSD, 3.5 lbs, $2,699
Dell XPS 13, i7-6500U 2 core 2.5GHz/3.1GHz 15 Watt, HD 520 Graphics, 24 EUs, 16GB, 512GB, 2.9lbs, $1,999
Dell XPS 15, i7-6700HQ 4 core 2.6GHz/3.5GHz, 45 Watt, HD 530 Graphics, 24EUs + nvidia GTX 960M 2GB, 16GB, 512GB SSD, 4.4lbs, $1,699

Let's rule out the Surface Pro 4 - this is your primary machine and while the keyboard has gotten better, I don't think you would be happy with the screen size or keyboard as a primary machine. But it does have the best Intel graphics at the high end with Iris. That's why I'm getting it - the graphics and it's not my primary. I have a desktop for high end stuff and storing lots of stuff (plus a NAS) and I have last generation XPS15 for my mobile device.

The Surface Book with the discrete nvidia is interesting but it's a mid range mobile graphics card with 1GB of memory. You are going to stress a mid range Maxwell gpu with only 1GB of memory if you're pushing the limits of photoshop. It's expensive. It has the ability to be a good tablet and has a pen.

The XPS 13 gets excellent reviews, is very portable, but is never going to be mistaken for a high performance or graphic rendering machine. It's somewhat expensive and it has no pen. It's quite portable.

The XPS 15 is the powerhouse here. It's got a non touch screen, it's got a lower res display (although I think 1920x1080 is fine - I have no idea why they don't make a 3840x2160 with 16GB and 512 SSD), no pen and is kinda heavy - but remember 4.4lbs with this high end power was unheard of 5 years ago. With the biggest battery and lower res screen, the huge battery should last a long time even with the 45wattt CPU and discrete graphics.

So it comes down to choices you have to make. Is the 1lb less weight, pen and ability to make it a tablet important enough to spend an extra $1000? Is performance the most important thing realizing 4.4lbs isn't really that much? You need to weigh your requirements and decide on the trade offs (because there is no perfect machine for you). Performance vs Pen vs Tablet vs Weight vs Price. Your math will be different than mine.

Oh - the extra memory and SSD. I don't think the extra 8GB of memory will make a lot of difference on any of these, but if it's your primary machine for the next 3 to 5 years, I think you will need or at least be happy you got the extra 256GB of storage. 512GB of storage for a primary 5 year machine seems the minimum for me. And none of them seem to come with 512GB SSD and 8GB of storage because that would definitely be my choice. If you don't mind putting a lot of stuff in the cloud realizing you need to be connected to access things, 256GB and 8GB will be fine. I'm just not sure you want to lock into having everything in the cloud.

At the very least, if it was going to be my primary machine, I would wait for the professional reviews of the Surface Book to come out before I would plop down $2,700. Make sure it doesn't throttle, get too hot, get too loud or is just a general lump of crap. I think it will measure up, but I wouldn't pre-order.

Hope this helped you sort things out.

Great post. Just wanted to say thanks. I'll respond more after thinking about it and/or I get more information, as you suggest.
 

intlzncster

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Early reports of the dGPU are in and it's pretty bad. "The mystery GPU is slightly underpowered compared to the GeForce 940M, an entry-level discrete graphics option for laptops."

So it is going to be powering a 4k resolution with a weaker-than-entry-level discrete video card, on a very tiny 13.5 inch screen? A 940m can't play a single modern game at even 1080p, so the GPU is basically just junk that's only there to be a bullet point for side by side comparisons.

Good info. Is the integrated intel card then better (in terms of functionality, not specs)? You could switch the dGPU out, which, while embarrassing for Microsoft, might offer a better experience?
 
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The xps 12 is coming out soon - I'm taking a serious look at it.
 
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surface book looks incredible. unfortunately i don't have that kind of money laying around at the moment.
 

jleves

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I'm really interested how the i7 Surface Pro Iris graphics numbers compare to the Surface Book discrete nvidia graphics. If it's not huge, the discrete card in the Book will be a bad move.
 

Fishy

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I don't think 99.9% of the people need to sweat the graphics card. If you're that worried about it, buy somethi

The kid and I were in the Microsoft store today buying an Xbox game for my nephew's birthday. (Car racing game - name escapes me, but holy cow, the graphics on these things are insane.)

On the Surface Book -

1) Screen is amazing.
2) Keyboard is good, trackpad is glass and is better than most PC laptops, but still not great.
3) I don't think the graphics differences will mean anything to most people - mid-range one seemed fine. There is now a 128GB model with the discreet graphics if need be.
4) The hinge is odd.
5) It's not really a laptop - you can't balance it on your lap and type. The screen is too heavy and topples the thing over backwards.
6) The pen lags. I lost three pens from the original Surface - I'd expect to do the same with this.

These convertibles always end up in the same place - not a great laptop and not a great tablet. Dell just came out with a new 15" XPS - I suspect I'll replace my office computer with one and then wait to see what the second-generation Surface Book looks like.
 
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