OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

[Waquoit]

... US racked-up the most miles in the Round Robin - 8,866. Mexico was second most with just under 8,500 miles.

Of the 8 teams that played in Manaus, only 2 (Switzerland, USA) advanced to the Round of 16 with Cameroon, Croatia, England, Honduras, Italy, and Portugal all washing out.

So let me get this straight, the USA had to play in the Group of Death. They had to play in the middle of the jungle, in a venue where only 25% of the teams made it through. They traveled twice as much as over half the teams, at least 1,500 miles more than 90% of the teams and over 8 times more than the team they took to extra time. They never quit and gained the admiration of fans and media all over the world. And instead of giving credit where credit is due, folks are getting hung up on "tactics". Talk about redboarding.

 

[BlueMAB]

Since they overcame all of that, maybe the talent gap isn't as big as some people make it out to be.

 

[SAMCRO]

Since they overcame all of that, maybe the talent gap isn't as big as some people make it out to be.

True, AND maybe the tactics were that much better than people are making them out to be ... See what I did there

 

[Husky25]

So let me get this straight, the USA had to play in the Group of Death. They had to play in the middle of the jungle, in a venue where only 25% of the teams made it through. They traveled twice as much as over half the teams, at least 1,500 miles more than 90% of the teams and over 8 times more than the team they took to extra time. They never quit and gained the admiration of fans and media all over the world. And instead of giving credit where credit is due, folks are getting hung up on "tactics". Talk about redboarding.

...And proclaiming that a self-admitted out-of-shape 32 year old would have put the US into the final 8.

 

[BlueMAB]

...And proclaiming that a self-admitted out-of-shape 32 year old would have put the US into the final 8.

The only people saying that are the ones building strawmen to defend the decision to leave him at home. You do realize that right ?

 

[BlueMAB]

True, AND maybe the tactics were that much better than people are making them out to be ... See what I did there

My grades for JK:

Ghana: B. We wanted to push them wide and did. I'm sure JK didn't anticipate Bradley playing perhaps the worst game of his USMNT career.

Portugal: A-. We were one defensive lapse from securing 6 points through two games. Despite a HORRIBLE gaffe early on. We were the better team and deserved the win.

Germany: A-. They're one of the world's best teams and they only beat us 1-0. Hard to argue what we could have done differently tactically to win that game.

Belgium: C-. We should have lost that game 4/5-1. We witnessed one of the best goalkeeping displays in the last 50 years of the WC.

 

[SAMCRO]

So who does everyone have the rest of the way? I was hoping to see a Brazil v Argentina final, but with no Neymar and Silva for Brazil, I think Germany gets the result (I'm still pulling for Braizl though). I'll take Argentina over Netherlands in what will be an epic game, but would not be surprised if the Oranje advance. I think it will be that closely contested. Aside form Spain not showing up, this is pretty much the final four most of the world thought it would be. This is the equivalant to a UConn, Kentucky, Duke or UNC, and Kansas FF in hoops. Each team being a global heavyweight in the game, and each team with a legit shot to win it all.

 

[Husky25]

The only people saying that are the ones building strawmen to defend the decision to leave him at home. You do realize that right ?

I don't care why Donovan was left of the final 23. Men's Soccer just experienced the most successful and (arguably) most exciting 5 year period in their history and this team was put together by a competent manager. One thing is for sure, I loved watching the aggressive attacking style, instead of the counterattack style of historical men's teams. I also like the locking up of dual citizen Americans. Green, Jones (he's will be 36 come the next WC, so he may make the team in the first place), Johnson, Chandler, and Brooks cannot play for Germany, now that they have declared for the US and more are on their way, as 4 did not make final roster.

Should Donovan have been on the team? I can't make that determination. I don't think he would have replaced Altidore any better than Dempsey did and who would have predicted a blown hamstring within 22 minutes after the kickoff with Ghana? By all accounts, this was supposed to be the best conditioned US team ever. IF Donovan didn't fit that mold, then he doesn't get the call. Being in the Group of Death, I don't think Donovan should have necessarily been rewarded for past glory. At the end of the day, In Klinsmann I trust.

 

[Husky25]

So who does everyone have the rest of the way? I was hoping to see a Brazil v Argentina final, but with no Neymar and Silva for Brazil, I think Germany gets the result (I'm still pulling for Braizl though). I'll take Argentina over Netherlands in what will be an epic game, but would not be surprised if the Oranje advance. I think it will be that closely contested. Aside form Spain not showing up, this is pretty much the final four most of the world thought it would be. This is the equivalant to a UConn, Kentucky, Duke or UNC, and Kansas FF in hoops. Each team being a global heavyweight in the game, and each team with a legit shot to win it all.

Germany.

 

[Dogdeacon]

The Argentina - Belgium game absolutely confirmed the obvious that the US's tactics were severely flawed in the Belgium game. Nonetheless it was a very entertaining game and b/c Howard played out of his mind we had a chance and staged the inspiring rally. Also obvious after watching the quarters that we weren't winning the World Cup regardless so I think mostly taking the positives and something to build on out of this USMNT performance is the proper takeaway. That and listening to a lot of Men in Blazers.

 

[meyers7]

So who does everyone have the rest of the way? I was hoping to see a Brazil v Argentina final, but with no Neymar and Silva for Brazil, I think Germany gets the result (I'm still pulling for Braizl though). I'll take Argentina over Netherlands in what will be an epic game, but would not be surprised if the Oranje advance. I think it will be that closely contested. Aside form Spain not showing up, this is pretty much the final four most of the world thought it would be. This is the equivalant to a UConn, Kentucky, Duke or UNC, and Kansas FF in hoops. Each team being a global heavyweight in the game, and each team with a legit shot to win it all.

Yea I had Spain, Germany, Brazil and Argentina for my final four. Brazil and Argentina to the final. But without Neymar and Silva, I'm thinking Germany. I still think Argentina can win out, but we'll see how they fair without Di Maria. But I heard they get Aguero back so that'll soften that. They still have a lot of attacking elements.

If I had my choice Germany (Ozil, Mertesacker, Podolski) or Agentina (Messi) I would be fine with winning. Definitely don't want to see the Dutch win. Robin and Robben, eh no thanks.

 

[Waquoit]

I'm rooting for the winner of the Argentina-Netherlands game. I guess I'm leaning toward Messi but I love Robben's game almost as much.

 

[ZooCougar]

Germany.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I'm rooting for the winner of the Argentina-Netherlands game. I guess I'm leaning toward Messi but I love Robben's game almost as much.

Messi and James Rodriguez have been my favorites to watch thus far. I fear Germany is going to win and I'm rooting for anyone but the Krauts.

 

[BlueMAB]

I don't care why Donovan was left of the final 23. Men's Soccer just experienced the most successful and (arguably) most exciting 5 year period in their history and this team was put together by a competent manager. One thing is for sure, I loved watching the aggressive attacking style, instead of the counterattack style of historical men's teams. I also like the locking up of dual citizen Americans. Green, Jones (he's will be 36 come the next WC, so he may make the team in the first place), Johnson, Chandler, and Brooks cannot play for Germany, now that they have declared for the US and more are on their way, as 4 did not make final roster.

Should Donovan have been on the team? I can't make that determination. I don't think he would have replaced Altidore any better than Dempsey did and who would have predicted a blown hamstring within 22 minutes after the kickoff with Ghana? By all accounts, this was supposed to be the best conditioned US team ever. IF Donovan didn't fit that mold, then he doesn't get the call. Being in the Group of Death, I don't think Donovan should have necessarily been rewarded for past glory. At the end of the day, In Klinsmann I trust.

So the answer is "no", you don't realize that the people who would have liked to see Landon Donovan on the roster, are not the people arguing his exclusion is the only thing that stood between the US and the Quarterfinals. Bringing up Altidore, as if that would be the straight swap is another strawman.

This was not the "most conditioned US team ever by all accounts".

This was the "most conditioned US team ever by Jurgen Klinsmann's account". We saw how well his conditioning plan worked out with multiple guys going out with bad hamstrings... in the first half.

We've got JK for at least the next 4 years, and he's made some tremendous improvements. He's obviously an upgrade over Arena and Bradley. Most importantly he is trying to change the culture and improve the organization from the foundation up. However, he is not without his faults, and it's fair to criticize some of his decisions.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

…if it is a Brazil v. Argentina final, I am rooting the people of Brazil as the country may burn down around them depending on the results.

 

[Husky25]

So the answer is "no", you don't realize that the people who would have liked to see Landon Donovan on the roster, are not the people arguing his exclusion is the only thing that stood between the US and the Quarterfinals. Bringing up Altidore, as if that would be the straight swap is another strawman.

This was not the "most conditioned US team ever by all accounts".

This was the "most conditioned US team ever by Jurgen Klinsmann's account". We saw how well his conditioning plan worked out with multiple guys going out with bad hamstrings... in the first half.

We've got JK for at least the next 4 years, and he's made some tremendous improvements. He's obviously an upgrade over Arena and Bradley. Most importantly he is trying to change the culture and improve the organization from the foundation up. However, he is not without his faults, and it's fair to criticize some of his decisions.

Why did you put, "no," in quotes? I didn't write that one way or the other. Of course it's not the only reason the US didn't make the quarterfinal, but hindsight is 20/20. If replacing Altidore is straw man, then the constant reminders of Dempsey playing out of position (to compensate for Altidore) are an equal strawman.

Klinsmann is not without his faults, but given where he has brought this team and the team's expectations, I am choosing to focus on his positives and truth be told, I don't think leaving Donovan behind WC team was a fatal flaw.

What I am hoping for in the future is to include nine versatile bench players, so when an Altidore does go down in the future, it's closer to next man up, rather than changing the scheme and hoping against hope they can compensate...that and the development of another world class keeper. Howard will likely not be the US starter in Russia at 39 years old.

 

[UConnDan97]

My grades for JK:

Ghana: B. We wanted to push them wide and did. I'm sure JK didn't anticipate Bradley playing perhaps the worst game of his USMNT career.

Portugal: A-. We were one defensive lapse from securing 6 points through two games. Despite a HORRIBLE gaffe early on. We were the better team and deserved the win.

Germany: A-. They're one of the world's best teams and they only beat us 1-0. Hard to argue what we could have done differently tactically to win that game.

Belgium: C-. We should have lost that game 4/5-1. We witnessed one of the best goalkeeping displays in the last 50 years of the WC.

Exactly this.

I'm not sure why certain people on the board continue to believe that criticizing JK's approach in 1 game is equivalent to criticizing him as a coach overall. I've said it in this thread multiple times that I think JK has made this team better than we've ever been and that he's better than his predecessors. But the man is not infallible. His Belgium gameplan had errors in it for all to see. Maybe Fabian Johnson getting injured early hampered his ability to adjust the gameplan, but be that as it may, he had made some errors. And it's okay. I'm still extremely excited about him being our coach and about the future of US Soccer...

 

[spsct]

So who does everyone have the rest of the way? I was hoping to see a Brazil v Argentina final, but with no Neymar and Silva for Brazil, I think Germany gets the result (I'm still pulling for Braizl though). I'll take Argentina over Netherlands in what will be an epic game, but would not be surprised if the Oranje advance. I think it will be that closely contested. Aside form Spain not showing up, this is pretty much the final four most of the world thought it would be. This is the equivalant to a UConn, Kentucky, Duke or UNC, and Kansas FF in hoops. Each team being a global heavyweight in the game, and each team with a legit shot to win it all.

Germany all the way...

 

[BlueMAB]

Why did you put, "no," in quotes? I didn't write that one way or the other.

of course you did, when you wrote this...

...And proclaiming that a self-admitted out-of-shape 32 year old would have put the US into the final 8.

And then didn't bother to answer this...

The only people saying that are the ones building strawmen to defend the decision to leave him at home. You do realize that right ?

either that, or you're just playing dumb by lobbing that comment out there knowing that nobody said that, and then refusing to admit it when being called on it.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Why did you put, "no," in quotes? I didn't write that one way or the other. Of course it's not the only reason the US didn't make the quarterfinal, but hindsight is 20/20. If replacing Altidore is straw man, then the constant reminders of Dempsey playing out of position (to compensate for Altidore) are an equal strawman.

Klinsmann is not without his faults, but given where he has brought this team and the team's expectations, I am choosing to focus on his positives and truth be told, I don't think leaving Donovan behind WC team was a fatal flaw.

What I am hoping for in the future is to include nine versatile bench players, so when an Altidore does go down in the future, it's closer to next man up, rather than changing the scheme and hoping against hope they can compensate...that and the development of another world class keeper. Howard will likely not be the US starter in Russia at 39 years old.

Help me out here. One of the issues I'm having in fully embracing rooting for the USMNT is the World Cup is once every FOUR years. I.e. I love the Olympics, but I don't need to follow skiing or track & field obsessively over the interim years to hope for the US to win gold. It just happens and you can tune in and out. So that's what seems kind of weird for me in becoming a huge fan of the USMNT, do I now need to follow recruiting & development and get over-excited about Freddy Adu (used as cautionary tale reference)?

Seems better to follow a league that has US players in it and the casually root/monitor the USMNT as almost an aside rooting interest. But that's tough cuz the MLS isn't quite good enough and following a European team seems like artificially creating an allegiance. Time is ripe now though as I'm in Boston and Red Sox are not good this year and I'm not an NFL fan. So I've got until UConn bball season to fill a sporting gap. I've printed out the Revolution schedule...

 

[Husky25]

of course you did, when you wrote this...

And then didn't bother to answer this...

either that, or you're just playing dumb by lobbing that comment out there knowing that nobody said that, and then refusing to admit it when being called on it.

But it was said at least once over the last 62 pages. I'd rather not directly call the poster out, but it was certainly hinted at on or around page 54. That said, I didn't answer the question on purpose. 1) It wasn't really a question. It's baiting. 2) I don't believe it is a strawman, and 3) It's not true. It was at least hinted at over the last 62 pages that Donovan would have given the US a better chance to win than who was on the field during the last 5 minutes of regulation and Extra Time. I only went back 8 pages so far, but it's there.

It's not a strawman because at the end of the day, Klinsmann has forgotten more about soccer than I will know in 1,000 lifetimes. To that end, I believe he had a vision and team conditioning as a whole was so important that all things being equal, he was going with the better conditioned athlete. I truly believe that Klinsmann was building a team that was greater than the sum of its parts, not a group of individuals. As Herb Brooks would have said, the US is not talented enough to win on talent alone. Personal differences aside (most likely didn't help, but it wasn't the determining factor to keep him out of Brazil), Donovan irrefutably stated that he was not fit to go 90 or to train for the requisite days on end, which indicates that his best days are behind him. This team certainly had an air of World Cup inexperience about it, but it also had four other non-goalkeepers who were 32 years or older and two others at age 31. Why were they fit enough to train?

Finally, initial conditioning and fitness level is separate from occurrences such as the Altidore injury. Maybe he didn't stretch properly that day. Maybe he tried to work through a tight muscle. Perhaps it was a reoccurrence of an already existing injury and he didn't tell anyone. A similar injury happened in the Germany-Portugal match just hours earlier. How many sprinters pull up lame in completion (See Michael Johnson in the 150 meter match race vs. Donovan Bailey)? It happens even to the most world class of world class athletes.

 

[Husky25]

Help me out here. One of the issues I'm having in fully embracing rooting for the USMNT is the World Cup is once every FOUR years. I.e. I love the Olympics, but I don't need to follow skiing or track & field obsessively over the interim years to hope for the US to win gold. It just happens and you can tune in and out. So that's what seems kind of weird for me in becoming a huge fan of the USMNT, do I now need to follow recruiting & development and get over-excited about Freddy Adu (used as cautionary tale reference)?

Seems better to follow a league that has US players in it and the casually root/monitor the USMNT as almost an aside rooting interest. But that's tough cuz the MLS isn't quite good enough and following a European team seems like artificially creating an allegiance. Time is ripe now though as I'm in Boston and Red Sox are not good this year and I'm not an NFL fan. So I've got until UConn bball season to fill a sporting gap. I've printed out the Revolution schedule...

I'm not sure you meant to quote my post, but anyhow here it goes. Qualifying for the 2018 World Cup will start in 2016 and Barclays Premier League begins next month. As a Sox fan, you may consider Liverpool as they are owned by Fenway Sports Group. Unlike you, I am a fan of college and Pro Football alike, so I have not gotten into the Barclays up to this point. But I may check it out starting this year.

 

[SubbaBub]

Help me out here. One of the issues I'm having in fully embracing rooting for the USMNT is the World Cup is once every FOUR years. I.e. I love the Olympics, but I don't need to follow skiing or track & field obsessively over the interim years to hope for the US to win gold. It just happens and you can tune in and out. So that's what seems kind of weird for me in becoming a huge fan of the USMNT, do I now need to follow recruiting & development and get over-excited about Freddy Adu (used as cautionary tale reference)?

Seems better to follow a league that has US players in it and the casually root/monitor the USMNT as almost an aside rooting interest. But that's tough cuz the MLS isn't quite good enough and following a European team seems like artificially creating an allegiance. Time is ripe now though as I'm in Boston and Red Sox are not good this year and I'm not an NFL fan. So I've got until UConn bball season to fill a sporting gap. I've printed out the Revolution schedule...

Follow players in the US pool, watch the EPL to see what top level soccer looks like. Realize that the MLS, while making strides, is comparatively a rec league. Follow the annual USMNT schedule and understand that certain games are more important than others. By the time 2018, you'll be able to competently argue that Howard is still a better choice than Guzman and that for all the talk of the US playing an attacking style you'll notice quite plainly that not all that much has changed.

But, you'll get really excited if we nick a goal to put us through the group stage and feel that it was totally worth it.

 

[BlueMAB]

Right, saying we'd have a better chance to maintain possession and create scoring opportunities is the same thing as saying 1 man was the only thing that stood between us and the final 8.

Altidore was:
1) not the only player with a hamstring injury
2) not the only player with a hamstring injury in the first half

Multiple players went down with hamstring injuries of varying severities. I guess they all forgot to stretch.