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tykurez

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"They blunder around, eating whatever comes under their noses, trampling the scenery and hooting loudly into the wind. "

We sure can. And if it does, perhaps those goons can take some solace in the fact that they almost ate up little 'ole UConn. But alas, too ducking bad ... we're still here.
 
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This would be great. I hope NCAA loses big on this one although I have a feeling this will go all the way to the supreme court.
 
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How is the NCAA any different than the universities and American businesses for that matter that don't turn over a large share of the profits to workers? Universities surely do not do it at the academic level (and on balance, university workers provide a lot more labor for a lot more revenue than the athletes do, not to mention that these entities aren't even profitable). But how about businesses and internships, all sorts of labor relations that are similarly problematic?
 
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Presumably a share is different than none and in this case the workers are suing. That's always an option. In a way the lawsuit is analagous to inception of labor unions.

So with respect to your question about labor relations in general businesses any workers can choose to unionize or sue - its a matter of leverage/choice and facts. Student athletes haven't had much leverage (there has been sporadic talk of them 'unionizing' via social media, but nothing to date) but without reading the lawsuit its pretty clear they have the facts on their side.
 
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Presumably a share is different than none and in this case the workers are suing. That's always an option. In a way the lawsuit is analagous to inception of labor unions.

So with respect to your question about labor relations in general businesses any workers can choose to unionize or sue - its a matter of leverage/choice and facts. Student athletes haven't had much leverage (there has been sporadic talk of them 'unionizing' via social media, but nothing to date) but without reading the lawsuit its pretty clear they have the facts on their side.

How do you draw the conclusion that they have the facts on their side? Because of Pierce and Nocera?

The whole thing seems absolutely brainless to me since these athletic programs all lose money, and the cost of each athlete as it is now is in the many tens of thousands (i.e. not only tuition and room & board, but training and tutors and facilities).
 
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How is the NCAA any different than the universities and American businesses for that matter that don't turn over a large share of the profits to workers? Universities surely do not do it at the academic level (and on balance, university workers provide a lot more labor for a lot more revenue than the athletes do, not to mention that these entities aren't even profitable). But how about businesses and internships, all sorts of labor relations that are similarly problematic?

How are the situations you used, universities and businesses not sharing all profits to workers, comparable to the NCAA using Ed O'Bannon's likeness for an EA Sports video game in which O'Bannon never saw a dime?
 
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How are the situations you used, universities and businesses not sharing all profits to workers, comparable to the NCAA using Ed O'Bannon's likeness for an EA Sports video game in which O'Bannon never saw a dime?

EA Sports is small change, heck EA Sports doesn't even have the license anymore. They gave it up (if one even imagines the likenesses look like the players) the big money is using their likenesses for television, in reruns and advertisements, etc. That's what the players are going after. The question is, do they sign their rights over when they agree to play? Do TAs sign their rights over when they agree to foreswear outside funding and remuneration? Do faculty sign their rights over when they write a book and the proceeds go to the university? YES.
 

prankster

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I do not believe that this is simply about "just compensation for work performed".

O'Bannon is suing over the NCAA claiming marketing rights, in perpetuity.

At issue is the NCAA's right to profit forever from the names, images, and likenesses of the people who play the games without compensating the players at all.
 
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How do you draw the conclusion that they have the facts on their side? Because of Pierce and Nocera?

The whole thing seems absolutely brainless to me since these athletic programs all lose money, and the cost of each athlete as it is now is in the many tens of thousands (i.e. not only tuition and room & board, but training and tutors and facilities).
I acknowledge there are arguments for both sides. The fact that athletic programs lose money does not authorize them to generate revenues any way they see fit.

The EA Sports situation is one example of the most blatant use of ncaa athletes to generate money. It gets a lot more ambiguous and complex for sure, but the facts in my mind are that Men's NCAA football and basketball generate ENORMOUS amounts of revenue. You cannot generate these revenues without the athletes. It is that simple at the core.
 
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EA Sports is small change, heck EA Sports doesn't even have the license anymore. They gave it up (if one even imagines the likenesses look like the players) the big money is using their likenesses for television, in reruns and advertisements, etc. That's what the players are going after. The question is, do they sign their rights over when they agree to play? Do TAs sign their rights over when they agree to foreswear outside funding and remuneration? Do faculty sign their rights over when they write a book and the proceeds go to the university? YES.
How much money did UConn get from Wally Lamb's books? Are you telling me that for every book Sam Pickering writes (first UConn professor that comes to mind) UConn gets 100% of the revenues ? I doubt that.

Post a list of the top 100 TA's of all-time and how they generated revenue for their schools and then do the same for athletes. See which post gets more attention.

I get it that athletes sign their rights away. Point is they have no choice, the school/ncaa has all the power and they are abusing it with stupid things such as conference hopping solely to generate the most $$.
 
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I acknowledge there are arguments for both sides. The fact that athletic programs lose money does not authorize them to generate revenues any way they see fit.

The EA Sports situation is one example of the most blatant use of ncaa athletes to generate money. It gets a lot more ambiguous and complex for sure, but the facts in my mind are that Men's NCAA football and basketball generate ENORMOUS amounts of revenue. You cannot generate these revenues without the athletes. It is that simple at the core.

Every university raises revenue. Sports are but a small part of the budget. You have to generate money. Otherwise, how are you going to pay the room&board and tuition of all these scholarship athletes? You need money. Has anyone here actually ever played EA Sports NCAA basketball? Just wondering if people are familiar with it. 1995 was the first season, and if the players in the game were likenesses, well I'm Cary Grant. Regardless, the game doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't for several years (5). The likenesses argument now refers solely to TV game reruns.
 
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I do not believe that this is simply about "just compensation for work performed".

O'Bannon is suing over the NCAA claiming marketing rights, in perpetuity.

At issue is the NCAA's right to profit forever from the names, images, and likenesses of the people who play the games without compensating the players at all.

Right. But isn't copyright the same thing? If I sign my rights over, it's perpetuity (unless I live past the age of 125).
 
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How much money did UConn get from Wally Lamb's books? Are you telling me that for every book Sam Pickering writes (first UConn professor that comes to mind) UConn gets 100% of the revenues ? I doubt that.

Post a list of the top 100 TA's of all-time and how they generated revenue for their schools and then do the same for athletes. See which post gets more attention.

I get it that athletes sign their rights away. Point is they have no choice, the school/ncaa has all the power and they are abusing it with stupid things such as conference hopping solely to generate the most .

Unless the professor has a deal with the university in his contract, yes. The university gets the royalties per a standard contract.
 
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I get it that athletes sign their rights away. Point is they have no choice, the school/ncaa has all the power and they are abusing it with stupid things such as conference hopping solely to generate the most .

Conference hopping to keep tuition down--and to stop spending money on sports that they don't have--and to stop bleeding dry average students with student fees that many of them take out loans to pay.
 
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Conference hopping to keep tuition down--and to stop spending money on sports that they don't have--and to stop bleeding dry average students with student fees that many of them take out loans to pay.
Really, can you prove for example that BC saved $ and passed that onto students by hopping to the ACC?
Next,
Upstater said: "Unless the professor has a deal with the university in his contract, yes. The university gets the royalties per a standard contract. "

Easy counter is 'the royalties' presumably don't preclude professors getting paid something and the unless part is obviously unavailable for athletes. Arguably at a minimum an athlete like LeBron James should have been able to go to college with a rider to his waiver that allowed him to share in profits for selling his likeness, etc...

Lastly,
Upstater said:
Every university raises revenue. Sports are but a small part of the budget. You have to generate money. Otherwise, how are you going to pay the room&board and tuition of all these scholarship athletes? You need money. Has anyone here actually ever played EA Sports NCAA basketball? Just wondering if people are familiar with it. 1995 was the first season, and if the players in the game were likenesses, well I'm Cary Grant. Regardless, the game doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't for several years (5). The likenesses argument now refers solely to TV game reruns. "
You ignored my point that raising revenue doesn't entitle Universities to use athletes without compensation. EA Sports is a vehicle for the broader point - it doesn't matter. You are very hung up on the profitability of Universities - which is a real concern for the country and most of us. But this argument would be more compelling to me if colleges with major sports programs had lower fees than DIII colleges or schools with no major sports but that is simply not the case. All college costs have skyrocketed over the past 25yrs and sports have not prevented this runaway inflation.

I don't know how much of a D1 football or basketball program's revenues go to fund the program itself, but regardless a lot of people are supplied with paying jobs whereas the primary revenue generators do not get paid. I know this doesn't work, but simply removed tutors, NCAA compliance officers and did other things to allow colleges to run sports teams as purely a business profit center your points would actually combine with mine and we could pay the players and generate revenue for the universities.
 
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Really, can you prove for example that BC saved $ and passed that onto students by hopping to the ACC?
Next,
Upstater said: "Unless the professor has a deal with the university in his contract, yes. The university gets the royalties per a standard contract. "

Yes, it's easy to prove. Since BC's tuition is higher than the actual cost-per-student, this means that any effort to defray the cost of athletics reduces tuition. In other words, students subsidize athletics at BC. So if you get more money from conference affiliation, you naturally lower costs.

Easy counter is 'the royalties' presumably don't preclude professors getting paid something and the unless part is obviously unavailable for athletes. Arguably at a minimum an athlete like LeBron James should have been able to go to college with a rider to his waiver that allowed him to share in profits for selling his likeness, etc...

Athletes get room & board and tuition remission. Their reward is by comparison even greater relative to the amount of revenue they bring in than that of faculty. James DIDN'T go to college maybe because he could get paid MORE. Just like Brandon Jennings and many others took the same road.

Lastly,
Upstater said:
Every university raises revenue. Sports are but a small part of the budget. You have to generate money. Otherwise, how are you going to pay the room&board and tuition of all these scholarship athletes? You need money. Has anyone here actually ever played EA Sports NCAA basketball? Just wondering if people are familiar with it. 1995 was the first season, and if the players in the game were likenesses, well I'm Cary Grant. Regardless, the game doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't for several years (5). The likenesses argument now refers solely to TV game reruns. "

You ignored my point that raising revenue doesn't entitle Universities to use athletes without compensation. EA Sports is a vehicle for the broader point - it doesn't matter. You are very hung up on the profitability of Universities - which is a real concern for the country and most of us. But this argument would be more compelling to me if colleges with major sports programs had lower fees than DIII colleges or schools with no major sports but that is simply not the case. All college costs have skyrocketed over the past 25yrs and sports have not prevented this runaway inflation.

You're confusing multiple things. Expenditures haven't skyrocketed. Only tuition has. Expenditures are rising below the rate of inflation since 1989. Athletes ARE compensated. R&B and tuition remission. I'm totally confused by the rest of what you wrote. Why would fees at D1 schools be smaller? The programs aren't profitable. Rutgers used to lose $35 million a year on sports not counting their stadium debt. Now they will lose $25 million less than they used to lose. That doesn't make them profitable. It only means they lose less money.

I don't know how much of a D1 football or basketball program's revenues go to fund the program itself, but regardless a lot of people are supplied with paying jobs whereas the primary revenue generators do not get paid. I know this doesn't work, but simply removed tutors, NCAA compliance officers and did other things to allow colleges to run sports teams as purely a business profit center your points would actually combine with mine and we could pay the players and generate revenue for the universities.

All revenues fund the programs. Tutors and such are not paid for by sports. But how can you be certain that sports would continue to generate revenues if the conferences became semi-pro entitities run by non-students?

Personally, it would be interesting. Awkward. And perverse. But since schools are now creating entertainment vehicles for students and alumni (for instance, hiring Donald Trump or a comedian to perform), I don't see why sports should be any different. Once athletes start getting paid, as the NCAA proposed, it will be time to move things in the direction of semi-pro leagues, or else allow agents to pay them. If you simply move to the additional stipend, it will create an awful precedent in which an athlete sits in a class with cash in his pocket that is put there by the student sitting next to him, who works 30 hours a week and eats Ramen noodles every night.
 

prankster

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Right. But isn't copyright the same thing? If I sign my rights over, it's perpetuity (unless I live past the age of 125).

As the plaintiff's attorney might suggest: "Gee! I guess you are right! Indentured servitude, for life!"
 

Mr. Wonderful

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Ed O'Bannon is suing because the NCAA sold the rights to his image after he was no longer in the NCAA.

Had the player been Carmelo Anthony, how do you think that would change things?

Personally, the NCAA has a lot of balls claiming they can do this without compensating the player.
 
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Every university raises revenue. Sports are but a small part of the budget. You have to generate money. Otherwise, how are you going to pay the room&board and tuition of all these scholarship athletes? You need money. Has anyone here actually ever played EA Sports NCAA basketball? Just wondering if people are familiar with it. 1995 was the first season, and if the players in the game were likenesses, well I'm Cary Grant. Regardless, the game doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't for several years (5). The likenesses argument now refers solely to TV game reruns.

The reason EA hasn't made an NCAA basketball game since 2010 is because O'Bannon sued. It's not like they decided to halt operations for the hell of it.
 
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The reason EA hasn't made an NCAA basketball game since 2010 is because O'Bannon sued. It's not like they decided to halt operations for the hell of it.
2008. Poor sales too.
 
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1. Yes, it's easy to prove. Since BC's tuition is higher than the actual cost-per-student, this means that any effort to defray the cost of athletics reduces tuition. In other words, students subsidize athletics at BC. So if you get more money from conference affiliation, you naturally lower costs.

2. All revenues fund the programs. Tutors and such are not paid for by sports. But how can you be certain that sports would continue to generate revenues if the conferences became semi-pro entitities run by non-students?

3. Personally, it would be interesting. Awkward. And perverse. But since schools are now creating entertainment vehicles for students and alumni (for instance, hiring Donald Trump or a comedian to perform), I don't see why sports should be any different. Once athletes start getting paid, as the NCAA proposed, it will be time to move things in the direction of semi-pro leagues, or else allow agents to pay them. If you simply move to the additional stipend, it will create an awful precedent in which an athlete sits in a class with cash in his pocket that is put there by the student sitting next to him, who works 30 hours a week and eats Ramen noodles every night.

1. BC's tuition is higher than the actual cost per student!? Are you using some sort of variable pricing model where you are just looking at the individual costs for a student's room, board and classes and not real estate costs, admin costs etc... I think the total cost to run a university has to be more than the tuition but I'm guessing whereas you seem to be on the inside (?). Regardless of how you measure, my point is that there should be a before and after. To the extent you create new athletic revenues - if there is a symbiotic relationship as you imply, this should allow you to lower tuition. But instead tuition has gone up over the last 20yrs as the popularity and revenues from major sports has exploded.

I remember reading that when UConn went 1A in football it was partly because 1AA programs always lose money, but the best 1A programs had the chance to make money. Similarly men's basketball definitely makes money for UConn not to mention the intangible effects over the past 25 years since Calhoun and Geno came in. And again profitability is irrelevant, its revenue generation that matters. Add the intangible effect of building the brand and there's no question that for example the NCAA championship basketball teams generated way more for UConn than the value of their scholarships.

If as you mention later ["Expenditures haven't skyrocketed. Only tuition has. Expenditures are rising below the rate of inflation since 1989.] , then what the heck is going on?! Did colleges suddenly wake up and realize they were losing money because they didn't properly value/price tuition? Are donations down? I simply think if sports revenues are going up in order for this to be beneficial to the students either their costs should go down or the quality of the school (outside of just enjoyment of sports) should be enhanced.

There is definitely a direct relationship between colleges, sports and big donors. Presumably a school like Williams College gets alumni money from those who came for and want to perpetuate that experience and Notre Dame similarly gets money from those who want to perpetuate the big-time athletic portion of that experience. Removing that is scary and possibly a death blow to such schools. Not to get too philosophical, but a lot of people at Penn State might point out that ultimately sports took over what was supposed to be the primary mission.

2. Who knows if they'd be profitable or not, just like anything else in a capitalist society the profitable ventures would survive. The NCAA has created a monopolistic environment with all kinds of otherwise unnecessary costs and although the product is still expensive to produce its a lot less expensive b/c they don't have to pay the players. Cynically, if tuition was truly more expensive than pay they'd likely switch. I understand fully that for 90%+ of athletes even in major sports a scholarship is in fact a good deal (particularly in the long run) versus what they'd get paid. But on the whole and when you account for superstar players, the athletic programs reap exponentially more $ than the value of the scholarships for successful teams.

3. Its already awkward and perverse. There's plenty of precedent and history of athletes getting money or cars and certainly at every level (high school) the hotshot athlete gets things the average student does not. This is a fact of life. Cliff Robinson said he didn't have $3 to pay me for a floor party, but of course I let him attend anyway and he got more than his share of booze, other* and women than anyone who helped fund, organize and host the party and we were happy to have him there. Most decide the ramen noodles are a worthwhile trade-off for the experiences.
 
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1. BC's tuition is higher than the actual cost per student!?

Yes.

Are you using some sort of variable pricing model where you are just looking at the individual costs for a student's room, board and classes and not real estate costs, admin costs etc...

Cost per student is an official measurement used by every university and the federal gov't. simply put, it's budget divided by number of students. At BC, the tuition is higher than the actual cost. At state institutions, tuition can sometimes be only 1/4 the cost per student.

I think the total cost to run a university has to be more than the tuition but I'm guessing whereas you seem to be on the inside (?).

When you factor in need blind admissions policies and the redistribution of 35-40% of tuition in the form of scholarships, this isn't the case.

Regardless of how you measure, my point is that there should be a before and after. To the extent you create new athletic revenues - if there is a symbiotic relationship as you imply, this should allow you to lower tuition. But instead tuition has gone up over the last 20yrs as the popularity and revenues from major sports has exploded.

Sports is such a teensy part of the budget that it shouldn't have a huge impact either way. We are talking about 5% of the budget, so in terms of the difference in TV dollars (say $20 million or in BC's case $17 million - $5 million =) $12 million, that is not going to make a major difference. Remember, at state institutions the cost per student is subsidized so there is no absolute relation between tuition and expenditures. As subsidies drop, tuition rises, no matter what happens with athletics. To give but one example, UCLA dropped its subsidy by $7,000 per student. If I were to guess that UCLA has, say, 40k students, that's a loss of $280 million a year. The rise in athletic TV revenues by $18 million is not going to offset the loss of $280 million much.

Besides, I was referring to the student activity fee. That fee is pretty easy to figure out. The fees these days are around $2k. So, begin by realizing that the intramural and recreation budget is not part of the ADs budget, so any fees counted as revs by the AD are for the sheer purpose of funding NCAA sports. You can divide the total number of fees by the number of students to determine how much each student paid in fees to the AD. At many schools, this figure is between $500-$1k per year.

I remember reading that when UConn went 1A in football it was partly because 1AA programs always lose money, but the best 1A programs had the chance to make money. Similarly men's basketball definitely makes money for UConn not to mention the intangible effects over the past 25 years since Calhoun and Geno came in. And again profitability is irrelevant, its revenue generation that matters. Add the intangible effect of building the brand and there's no question that for example the NCAA championship basketball teams generated way more for UConn than the value of their scholarships.

Andrew Zimbalist who studies sports at Amherst College has a study disproving this.

If as you mention later ["Expenditures haven't skyrocketed. Only tuition has. Expenditures are rising below the rate of inflation since 1989.] , then what the heck is going on?! Did colleges suddenly wake up and realize they were losing money because they didn't properly value/price tuition? Are donations down? I simply think if sports revenues are going up in order for this to be beneficial to the students either their costs should go down or the quality of the school (outside of just enjoyment of sports) should be enhanced.

What's going on is the end of the Cold War. From 1950 to 1990, this country poured money into education in research in order to outdo the Soviets. When coupled with the GI Bill, this meant that the USA created the best higher Education system in the world. After 1990, we started slashing funds for higher education. While expenditures didn't rise above inflation, schools were unwilling to voluntarily devolve, so they raised tuition to keep up with the Joneses. Schools have strategic choices ruin their academic reputations by slashing, or try to keep up. Most have chosen to maintain a certain standard, but we are at the point now that we can no longer do that. Standards for higher education will have to drop, and they have drastically. We went from 85% full time faculty to 30% in two short decades. As Mark Yudof (Chancellor of Cal.) said to incoming freshman at Berkeley: "You will pay more for less than your predecessors did."

There is definitely a direct relationship between colleges, sports and big donors. Presumably a school like Williams College gets alumni money from those who came for and want to perpetuate that experience and Notre Dame similarly gets money from those who want to perpetuate the big-time athletic portion of that experience. Removing that is scary and possibly a death blow to such schools. Not to get too philosophical, but a lot of people at Penn State might point out that ultimately sports took over what was supposed to be the primary mission.

This has been studied too. UConn is one of the lucky ones that have translated sports into greater notoriety. BC and Notre Dame as well. Some schools have succeeded. But the studies by Zimbalist and, for instant, David Hillier at Texas show that some schools, like Rutgers, develop a reputation as a perpetual loser that actually puts kids off from going to the school. Marketing can work in reverse, don't forget. Zimbalist seems to think that sports helps less than 10% of schools for marketing purposes. Look at the USNWR, lots of schools without bigtime sports. Boston U. just joined the AAU--it dropped football 15 years ago. Coincidence? Yes, probably. But it certainly didn't hurt them. Hillier did a study of Texas's AD revs, and he surveyed donors to the Longhorn Foundation. 65% of them were unaware that they were contributing to sports, and not the university.

2. Who knows if they'd be profitable or not, just like anything else in a capitalist society the profitable ventures would survive. The NCAA has created a monopolistic environment with all kinds of otherwise unnecessary costs and although the product is still expensive to produce its a lot less expensive b/c they don't have to pay the players. Cynically, if tuition was truly more expensive than pay they'd likely switch. I understand fully that for 90%+ of athletes even in major sports a scholarship is in fact a good deal (particularly in the long run) versus what they'd get paid. But on the whole and when you account for superstar players, the athletic programs reap exponentially more $ than the value of the scholarships for successful teams.

I think college sports would lose its sheen, if this were to happen. Students still see athletes by and large as fellow students. if you changed that relationship, college sports would probably die (everywhere else but the south and southwest).

3. Its already awkward and perverse. There's plenty of precedent and history of athletes getting money or cars and certainly at every level (high school) the hotshot athlete gets things the average student does not. This is a fact of life. Cliff Robinson said he didn't have $3 to pay me for a floor party, but of course I let him attend anyway and he got more than his share of booze, other* and women than anyone who helped fund, organize and host the party and we were happy to have him there. Most decide the ramen noodles are a worthwhile trade-off for the experiences.

You gave Cliff $3 and beer. You didn't give him $1k a year. There's a huge difference.
 
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