Maya vs. Diana

[chrissaran]

Something Rebecca said about the race for the MVP in the W.N.B.A. didn't make sense. She said Diana had an edge over Maya because of the Mercury's record. Phoenix is 21-3 and Minnesota is 20-6, and advantage of just two games. When you look at Minnesota's injuries: Seimone Augustus, Rebekkah Brunson, Monica Wright and Devereaux Peters, along with three rookies on the roster, there's no question that Maya was their go to player, and the other teams know it. If you compare stats: Maya 24.3/Diana 17.9 pts., Maya 8.3/ Diana 3.9 rbs., Maya 3.5/ Diana 6.1 assts. and Maya 1.9/Diana 0.8 stls. I don't see where the advantage goes to D, especially with a much improved Britney Griner and Penny Taylor to shoulder the burden. To this point in the season, I'll take Maya for MVP.

 

[j66kicker]

I'll take whichever beats the other one in the playoffs, which I think will be DT. MVP may already be decided by then, though. So, next best thing - Mercury vs. Lynx this Thursday 8 PM

 

[Buzzyboy]

I'll take whichever beats the other one in the playoffs, which I think will be DT. MVP may already be decided by then, though. So, next best thing - Mercury vs. Lynx this Thursday 8 PM

I think if you rate MVP balloting so simplistically, then there is no need for any voting at all. We just pick the best player on the winning team and that ends it. Throw sportswriters to the curb and let's focus on the next thing that comes along, right? As Chrissaran has noted, Maya has had severe difficulties to overcome to get her team to where it is and I think a season of work and sweat shouldn't come down to the best of three or however the WNBA championship is decided. If Maya was playing for a last place team and had a great season statistically, then awarding the MVP to Diana might be somewhat black and white. That's not the case in this situation because the Lynx are in contention for the title solely on the BACK of Maya. Diana has had appreciably more support and her stats aren't nearly as impressive as are Maya's. I can't conceive that Maya doesn't win the MVP based on a marvelous season.

 

[intlzncster]

I think if you rate MVP balloting so simplistically, then there is no need for any voting at all. We just pick the best player on the winning team and that ends it. Throw sportswriters to the curb and let's focus on the next thing that comes along, right? As Chrissaran has noted, Maya has had severe difficulties to overcome to get her team to where it is and I think a season of work and sweat shouldn't come down to the best of three or however the WNBA championship is decided. If Maya was playing for a last place team and had a great season statistically, then awarding the MVP to Diana might be somewhat black and white. That's not the case in this situation because the Lynx are in contention for the title solely on the BACK of Maya. Diana has had appreciably more support and her stats aren't nearly as impressive as are Maya's. I can't conceive that Maya doesn't win the MVP based on a marvelous season.

I don't think he's rating it simplistically. He's not saying take the best player on the team that wins it all.

He's taking the two best players in the league and then determining who is better when it counts by who takes their team farther. That's a pretty good system. Though I know it doesn't actually work that way.

 

[chrissaran]

Rebecca was talking about the MVP of the regular season. There is a separate MVP award for the playoffs.

 

[intlzncster]

Rebecca was talking about the MVP of the regular season. There is a separate MVP award for the playoffs.

Yeah I got that. I was just responding to Buzzy's: "I think if you rate MVP balloting so simplistically, then there is no need for any voting at all. We just pick the best player on the winning team and that ends it. "

 

[bballnut90]

Something Rebecca said about the race for the MVP in the W.N.B.A. didn't make sense. She said Diana had an edge over Maya because of the Mercury's record. Phoenix is 21-3 and Minnesota is 20-6, and advantage of just two games. When you look at Minnesota's injuries: Seimone Augustus, Rebekkah Brunson, Monica Wright and Devereaux Peters, along with three rookies on the roster, there's no question that Maya was their go to player, and the other teams know it. If you compare stats: Maya 24.3/Diana 17.9 pts., Maya 8.3/ Diana 3.9 rbs., Maya 3.5/ Diana 6.1 assts. and Maya 1.9/Diana 0.8 stls. I don't see where the advantage goes to D, especially with a much improved Britney Griner and Penny Taylor to shoulder the burden. To this point in the season, I'll take Maya for MVP.

I'd vote Taurasi over Moore at this point. Phoenix went from a 19-15 team last year to 21-3. Moore has been outstanding but when you have a team that has been so dominant like Phoenix, I feel that the MVP almost has to go to the best player on that team, and that player is Taurasi (although Griner is having an outstanding sophomore season as well, averaging 16 points, 8 rebounds, 4 blocks, 2 assists and 59% FG).

 

[EricLA]

It's really close - I know Maya has been just tremendous from a scoring perspective, but Dee has been phenomenal in combining scoring with assists, and playing the lead guard. Dee does more with the ball and has it in her hands far more often as the offense always starts with her. Maya is everywhere on offense and defense, as evidenced by her scoring and rebounding. Oh, and 3+ APG is nothing to sneeze at for a wing.

I understand Rebecca's point, and I read the Swish appeal article on "Dee for MVP". But I think when you have something like 7 30-point scoring games, you have practically locked it up. Still, I think I would give the edge to Dee right now - she does more with the ball and has it in her hands a much larger % of the time as she's now the lead guard. Moore is averaging almost 5 MPG more than Dee. Raw numbers don't tell the entire story...

Lastly, Minny spent much of the season without Brunson, or Augustus, or both. Of course defenses would collapse more on Maya with those 2 out, but it will be interesting to see if, with both of them back, if Maya's numbers dip back towards 20 PPG...

Lost in a lot of the discussion, and overlooked for MVP consideration, is the job Charles has done this season for NY. I've only seen 2 Liberty games, but she is constantly double, and even triple teamed at times in the post, and still she's averaging 18+ PPG, 9.7 RPG, 2+ APG and 1 BPG.

Side note - how fortunate are we to be able to say the 2 best players in the world are women we were able to see on a daily basis for 4 years at UCONN?!!

 

[ctmom04]

I understand Rebecca's argument as well but it hasn't played out that way in that past. If that were the case, Maya should have won the award last year because she was the best player on the most dominant team, that also had the best record. Instead the award went to CP.

My vote is for Maya with D as a very close second. If Maya does not win it this year, I would be highly disappointed in the committee's selection of Candace last year. The same rules should apply year to year.

 

[UConn990411]

To the OP: stats are not a good way to determine who the MVP is ... ESPECIALLY, in basketball.

With that said, I think it would be hard to vote for anyone but Maya. This race reminds me a lot of the LeBron-Durant MVP race this past season. While LeBron was still the best player in the game (which Taurasi looks to be at the moment), Durant had the most impressive stretch of basketball last season (like Maya's streak of consecutive 25-point games). And like Durant, Maya was able to keep her team in contention for first place in a superior conference Western conference, despite injuries to key players.

The biggest difference is that LeBron's team underachieved a bit, while DT's could achieve the longest winning streak in WNBA history. But even so, I don't see that as being enough for her to best Maya out for the award.

(You know what's great, though? Knowing that neither player cares about individual accolades.)

 

[VAMike23]

IMHO, Maya would win by an appreciable margin if the MVP vote were held today, nothing like the razor-thin margin that Parker prevailed by last season.

Having said that, there is more basketball to be played....... Dee could potentially close the gap.

 

[j66kicker]

I think tomorrow's game, with both teams healthy, will be a nice gauge of which player (Maya or DT) can exert their will, leadership, skills, etc., for their team to win. This intangible - I don't know the name for "it" - is where I think DT has the edge (edge over any player I've ever seen). Too bad tomorrow's game isn't that meaningful in the standings - the more it counts, the more "it".

 

[easttexastrash]

DT is playing the perfect season. She is 6th in scoring and is number 1 in assists, and her team has won 16 games in a row. And you simply cannot put a stat to her leadership. If you only look at stats, you will say that Maya is the MVP. But if you watch what each is doing for her team on and off the court, DT wins.

Maya has put up some big number out of necessity and now that Augustus and Brunson are back I suspect that her numbers will drop considerably. Yes, Maya is scoring more points, but Maya is taking more shots than any other player in the league. DT has relatively equal or better stats than Maya in most offensive categories, except in 3 point shooting, where DT is considerably more accurate.

Shots Per Game
DT: 11.64
Maya: 18.34

FG%
DT: 48.1
Maya: 48.0

FT %
DT: 88.1
Maya: 87.2

3-point %
DT: 41.4
Maya: 33.8

 

[easttexastrash]

For the record, BG has the highest "Efficiency per 40 Minutes" rating than any other player in the league. She may get a vote or two. She is probably most impactful player on both ends of the court.

 

[j66kicker]

BG will be MVP one day. She isn't "taking over" yet, and doesn't really need to yet One day she will just take over a close playoff game and dominate it. Then she'll remember what that feels like and have a wild breakout season the next year.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Something Rebecca said about the race for the MVP in the W.N.B.A. didn't make sense. She said Diana had an edge over Maya because of the Mercury's record. Phoenix is 21-3 and Minnesota is 20-6, and advantage of just two games. When you look at Minnesota's injuries: Seimone Augustus, Rebekkah Brunson, Monica Wright and Devereaux Peters, along with three rookies on the roster, there's no question that Maya was their go to player, and the other teams know it. If you compare stats: Maya 24.3/Diana 17.9 pts., Maya 8.3/ Diana 3.9 rbs., Maya 3.5/ Diana 6.1 assts. and Maya 1.9/Diana 0.8 stls. I don't see where the advantage goes to D, especially with a much improved Britney Griner and Penny Taylor to shoulder the burden. To this point in the season, I'll take Maya for MVP.

Four things:

1) Raw statistics or head-to-head statistics are not completely dispositive, especially in a team sport.

2) Lobo stated (I heard her commentary) that she generally considers the best player on the best team as the MVP.

3) You note a "much improved Brittney Griner." Part of the reason for her development is how Diana facilitates the offense. She makes the players around her so much better. She gets the ball to Dupree on the baseline and in the high post so Candice can nail that midrange jumper that has become her specialty. She knows when to take over and score and when to defer and set up her teammates.

Using per-40 minute numbers, when Diana is on the floor, Phoenix socres 88.1 points per game and allows 72.0 points per game; when Diana is on the bench, Phoenix scores 73.6 points per game and allows 80.3 points per game.

4. No player in WNBA history has averaged 15 points and 6 assists per game for an entire season; Diana is at 18 and 6 right now. And Diana is also on pace to become the first player in WNBA history to join the 50-40-90 club (50 percent from the floor, 40 percent from three, 90 percent from the free throw line for an entire season).

So in leading her team to the best record in the WNBA, Taurasi is on pace to re-write WNBA history and the recordbooks. That makes her the MVP, in my book.

 

[j66kicker]

Good article...

http://the-boneyard.com/threads/swish-the-case-for-dt-as-2014-mvp.62761/

 

[easttexastrash]

This statement is very true.

"Moore is a special player, don't get me wrong. But most of her production these days is still the same as it has always been: spot-up jumpers and transition buckets. Moore has seen the ball more in post-ups and working for o-boards but she's still not a player whom you give the ball immediately at the end of games. If you look closely, she may sometimes be the option but it's usually some form of Augustus/Whalen/Wright/White handling the ball and Moore receives the ball off action. In Phoenix, you know the ball is going to be in Taurasi's hand with her calling the shots, and still, you can't stop it."

It would be interesting to know how many minutes each player has had the ball in her hands. DT runs the show in Phoenix, which is done by Whalen in Minnesota. Maya simply doesn't have the same amount of responsibility that DT has.

 

[intlzncster]

Four things:

1) Raw statistics or head-to-head statistics are not completely dispositive, especially in a team sport.

2) Lobo stated (I heard her commentary) that she generally considers the best player on the best team as the MVP.

3) You note a "much improved Brittney Griner." Part of the reason for her development is how Diana facilitates the offense. She makes the players around her so much better. She gets the ball to Dupree on the baseline and in the high post so Candice can nail that midrange jumper that has become her specialty. She knows when to take over and score and when to defer and set up her teammates.

Using per-40 minute numbers, when Diana is on the floor, Phoenix socres 88.1 points per game and allows 72.0 points per game; when Diana is on the bench, Phoenix scores 73.6 points per game and allows 80.3 points per game.

4. No player in WNBA history has averaged 15 points and 6 assists per game for an entire season; Diana is at 18 and 6 right now. And Diana is also on pace to become the first player in WNBA history to join the 50-40-90 club (50 percent from the floor, 40 percent from three, 90 percent from the free throw line for an entire season).

So in leading her team to the best record in the WNBA, Taurasi is on pace to re-write WNBA history and the recordbooks. That makes her the MVP, in my book.

Whelp, you won me over. Not actually that hard seeing as I vote on DT's side for EVERYTHING.

 

[ctmom04]

ETT I think we have to be fair when comparing stats. You left out the 3 categories that Maya is clearly ahead of Taurasi. You did give a mention to points but Diana isn't even close to Maya in this category. Rebounding-Maya the winner by a large margin. You also mentioned that Griner is #1 in efficiency per 40. If you took the time to look this up, you noticed that Maya is a close #2 (ranked #1 per game) and Diana is #11.

I think the other thing that absolutely has to be mentioned is that Phoenix is a loaded team this year and you are not seeing double and triple teams on Diana like you are seeing on Maya game in and game out. She is putting up ridiculous stats in the face of multiple defenders.

DT is playing the perfect season. She is 6th in scoring and is number 1 in assists, and her team has won 16 games in a row. And you simply cannot put a stat to her leadership. If you only look at stats, you will say that Maya is the MVP. But if you watch what each is doing for her team on and off the court, DT wins.

Maya has put up some big number out of necessity and now that Augustus and Brunson are back I suspect that her numbers will drop considerably. Yes, Maya is scoring more points, but Maya is taking more shots than any other player in the league. DT has relatively equal or better stats than Maya in most offensive categories, except in 3 point shooting, where DT is considerably more accurate.

Shots Per Game
DT: 11.64
Maya: 18.34

FG%
DT: 48.1
Maya: 48.0

FT %
DT: 88.1
Maya: 87.2

3-point %
DT: 41.4
Maya: 33.8

 

[VAMike23]

This statement is very true.

"Moore is a special player, don't get me wrong. But most of her production these days is still the same as it has always been: spot-up jumpers and transition buckets. Moore has seen the ball more in post-ups and working for o-boards but she's still not a player whom you give the ball immediately at the end of games. If you look closely, she may sometimes be the option but it's usually some form of Augustus/Whalen/Wright/White handling the ball and Moore receives the ball off action. In Phoenix, you know the ball is going to be in Taurasi's hand with her calling the shots, and still, you can't stop it."

It would be interesting to know how many minutes each player has had the ball in her hands. DT runs the show in Phoenix, which is done by Whalen in Minnesota. Maya simply doesn't have the same amount of responsibility that DT has.

Without weighing in any further on the MVP race, the beginning of the statement you quote is categorically UNtrue:

"But most of her production these days is still the same as it has always been: spot-up jumpers and transition buckets."

There has been a huge increase -- not a teensy, incremental one -- in the amount of plays run for, and off-the-ball work done by, Maya this season, not just classic post-ups. During the bulk of the season when Brunson and/or Augustus were out, Maya was running give-and-go plays *a lot*, flashing to the lane *a lot,* sealing defenders high *a lot* (this is not a classic post-up with the defender on the hip or in back) in addition to posting up smaller and also equal-sized players in classic fashion. Yes she is still shooting plenty of 3s and midrange jumpers and scoring in transition, but anyone who has been watching Maya very much at all this year would not make the statement that she is still basically just "jumpers and transition buckets." That's a ridiculous statement to make with respect to her play this season, which has truly been a joy to watch.

Now that both Brunson and Seimone are back, it is natural that the load would be spread around more and that she would have somewhat fewer plays, etc. But as Reeve pointed out, it's not just some simple fait accompli that when your other scorers and impact players go out that your remaining scorer will pick up the slack 1:1 in an effective fashion. Maya has been getting big production with defenses keying on her, and is still at or near the top in overall efficiency (std efficiency or per-40-minute). So to that extent, you could also say that "you know that they're looking to Maya and you still can't stop her." Similar statements. I think Laimbeer was actually quoted saying something like that, too, about Maya this season.

 

[ctmom04]

Without weighing in any further on the MVP race, the beginning of the statement you quote is categorically UNtrue:

"But most of her production these days is still the same as it has always been: spot-up jumpers and transition buckets."

There has been a huge increase -- not a teensy, incremental one -- in the amount of plays run for, and off-the-ball work done by, Maya this season, not just classic post-ups. During the bulk of the season when Brunson and/or Augustus were out, Maya was running give-and-go plays *a lot*, flashing to the lane *a lot,* sealing defenders high *a lot* (this is not a classic post-up with the defender on the hip or in back) in addition to posting up smaller and also equal-sized players in classic fashion. Yes she is still shooting plenty 3s and midrange jumpers and scoring in transition, but anyone who has been watching Maya very much at all this year would not make the statement that she is still basically just "jumpers and transition buckets." That's a ridiculous statement to make with respect to her play this season, which has truly been a joy to watch.

Now that both Brunson and Seimone are back, it is natural that the load would be spread around more and that she would have somewhat fewer plays, etc. But as Reeve pointed out, it's not just some simple fait accompli that when your other scorers and impact players go out that your remaining scorer will pick up the slack 1:1 in an effective fashion. Maya has been getting big production with defenses keying on her, and is still at or near the top in overall efficiency (std efficiency or per-40-minute). So to that extent, you could also say that "you know that they're looking to Maya and you still can't stop her." Similar statements. I think Laimbeer was actually quoted saying something like that, too, about Maya this season.

Spot on VAMike!

 

[easttexastrash]

Without weighing in any further on the MVP race, the beginning of the statement you quote is categorically UNtrue:

"But most of her production these days is still the same as it has always been: spot-up jumpers and transition buckets."

There has been a huge increase -- not a teensy, incremental one -- in the amount of plays run for, and off-the-ball work done by, Maya this season, not just classic post-ups. During the bulk of the season when Brunson and/or Augustus were out, Maya was running give-and-go plays *a lot*, flashing to the lane *a lot,* sealing defenders high *a lot* (this is not a classic post-up with the defender on the hip or in back) in addition to posting up smaller and also equal-sized players in classic fashion. Yes she is still shooting plenty 3s and midrange jumpers and scoring in transition, but anyone who has been watching Maya very much at all this year would not make the statement that she is still basically just "jumpers and transition buckets." That's a ridiculous statement to make with respect to her play this season, which has truly been a joy to watch.

Now that both Brunson and Seimone are back, it is natural that the load would be spread around more and that she would have somewhat fewer plays, etc. But as Reeve pointed out, it's not just some simple fait accompli that when your other scorers and impact players go out that your remaining scorer will pick up the slack 1:1 in an effective fashion. Maya has been getting big production with defenses keying on her, and is still at or near the top in overall efficiency (std efficiency or per-40-minute). So to that extent, you could also say that "you know that they're looking to Maya and you still can't stop her." Similar statements. I think Laimbeer was actually quoted saying something like that, too, about Maya this season.

someone needs to correct that writer...

My point is that DT is the general of the offense for Phoenix...Whalen is the general of the offense for Minnesota, so DT has much more responsibility for making sure that the entire offense is functioning properly, not just the plays that are designed for her.

I suspect that if DT were in the same position that she would be taking more shots and averaging more points. However, I do not think that Maya could talke over the PG position and run a team with the same efficiency. DT's ball handling skills are far superior to Moore's.

 

[VAMike23]

P.S.

The world's best player with the ball in her hands is Diana Taurasi.

The world's best player without the ball (not trying for humor) is Maya Moore.

 

[easttexastrash]

P.S.

The world's best player with the ball in her hands is Diana Taurasi.

The world's best player without the ball (not trying for humor) is Maya Moore.

I'm calling a truce with that statement. Both are worthy of the MVP award, just for different reasons that are hard to compare.

I'm just glad I am arguing for a UCONN player or I would be run off of this board. The only way to argue against Maya is with another UCONN grad.